Volcanic ash cloud and Private / VFR flying (merged)
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Norway/Denmark
If you are able to fly in UK you are lucky. I have just spoken to the duty officer at the Danish CAA and they said the only thing flying in Denmark are the birds.
I flew round the cloud VFR on Thursday fron BIRK and was in severe clear all the way to Danish boundary but was forced to divert.
Been sitting under clear blue skies ever since. Can see my destination! Totally unjustifiable overreaction. Problem is they can't backtrack now without being seen to be alarmist. Bird Flu, Salmonella, Mad Cow disease, WMD all come to mind.
Director of safety at Danish CAA not working today as it is Sunday.
Who are these guys?
I flew round the cloud VFR on Thursday fron BIRK and was in severe clear all the way to Danish boundary but was forced to divert.
Been sitting under clear blue skies ever since. Can see my destination! Totally unjustifiable overreaction. Problem is they can't backtrack now without being seen to be alarmist. Bird Flu, Salmonella, Mad Cow disease, WMD all come to mind.
Director of safety at Danish CAA not working today as it is Sunday.
Who are these guys?
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Katamarino - what would they get sued for?
In aviation, the #1 cornerstone is that the PIC (the "Captain" if you like
) is the final arbiter on the go/no-go decision.
He has sat 14 exams teaching him every piece of crap including the name of some wind blowing in Hong Kong. And then some more when doing the Type Rating. And he has flown through all kinds of sulphuric acid muck; any large 3rd world city is just fine for that.
He is perfectly capable of making a decision.
Volcanoes have been going off all over the place since long before aviation, so there is a big body of knowledge on this.
In this case, the airspace owners seem to have hung their coat on an ICAO recommendation that IFR in CAS should be pulled if there is volcanic ash there. But this isn't binding.
What the airspace owners (the NAAs) definitely can get sued for is if they ban aviation without a good reason supported by data. "Caution" is not a good reason. The economic loss is running at about 1M/hour. And you can sue for an economic loss, for sure.
IMHO, the NAA lawyers need their heads examined.
One way to proceed - until data is collected and analysed - would be a ban on night flight in the relevant airspace. What you can't see can't do any harm. And with the high pressure around now, there isn't going to be much IMC; well not if your rate of climb is +5000fpm ...
In aviation, the #1 cornerstone is that the PIC (the "Captain" if you like
) is the final arbiter on the go/no-go decision. He has sat 14 exams teaching him every piece of crap including the name of some wind blowing in Hong Kong. And then some more when doing the Type Rating. And he has flown through all kinds of sulphuric acid muck; any large 3rd world city is just fine for that.
He is perfectly capable of making a decision.
Volcanoes have been going off all over the place since long before aviation, so there is a big body of knowledge on this.
In this case, the airspace owners seem to have hung their coat on an ICAO recommendation that IFR in CAS should be pulled if there is volcanic ash there. But this isn't binding.
What the airspace owners (the NAAs) definitely can get sued for is if they ban aviation without a good reason supported by data. "Caution" is not a good reason. The economic loss is running at about 1M/hour. And you can sue for an economic loss, for sure.
IMHO, the NAA lawyers need their heads examined.
One way to proceed - until data is collected and analysed - would be a ban on night flight in the relevant airspace. What you can't see can't do any harm. And with the high pressure around now, there isn't going to be much IMC; well not if your rate of climb is +5000fpm ...
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Perhaps we in piston GA should keep quiet about how stupid "they" are, let them get on with it. All the time this goes on there will be less restrictions on airspace for us puddle jumpers.
If airlines go bust there may be less traffic about, they may even see a little sense in reducing CAS. Correction, I doubt that.
If airlines go bust there may be less traffic about, they may even see a little sense in reducing CAS. Correction, I doubt that.
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In aviation, the #1 cornerstone is that the PIC (the "Captain" if you like 
) is the final arbiter on the go/no-go decision.
) is the final arbiter on the go/no-go decision.
Yeah, fair point IO, but I guess that would be the view from the GA perspective.
While the PIC in commercial operations will pay with his job and perhaps his license if he makes the wrong call utlimately it is his employer who are responsible for the SOPs and for carrying the can when it all goes horribly wrong - corporate liability and all that sort of thing.
and the trouble is it would be a brave operator who sactions the flight when the Met Office has rung the alarm bells, if if they could get aircraft into the system (which presumably they cant).
In one sense the Met Office / NATS has made it easy for the airlines by closing our airspace. If they had left the decision to the operators it would have been interesting to see what would have happened.
What gives Eurocontrol the authority to refuse to give clearances is another interesting debate, or perhaps it is some other authority that ultimately holds the keys? One suspects it must be each individual sovereign state that makes the decision but who, I am not certain. Presumably if we wished to open our airspace we could and although we couldnt launch aircraft into Europe perhaps we could launch to the Americas, although even then Eurocontol would have to "open up" the UK block.
PS I was just reading the our very own Gordie has now weighed in - you can imagine that when the full financial impact dawns on our not so bright leaders ways will be found to get the airline flying again. The volcano may continue ejecting ash for some time, but I have a feeling our airpsace will not be closed for the same length of time - then again I could be horribly wrong.
volcanic ash ?
How about this for overreaction. Farnborough radar will only give Basic service. No Traffic service. NATS advise that if the controller gives you a turn to avoid another aicraft you could be turned into ash and could then sue NATS! OK to have an air to air then.
Why is it deemed SAFE to fly in the Gatwick Zone but UNSAFE to fly in the Heathrow Zone. Less ash in the Gatwick Zone? Madness
Why is it deemed SAFE to fly in the Gatwick Zone but UNSAFE to fly in the Heathrow Zone. Less ash in the Gatwick Zone? Madness
Last edited by cessnapete; 18th Apr 2010 at 19:31.
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Might be the wrong thread to post this but there we go?
A special thanks must go to all the controllers that have been very nice and let us GA types fly over/around (sometimes low) there airfields. I'm sure there are a lot of photos out there. Post here?
We did Birmingham today, a nice friendly controller on duty today. And I hope the girl with the dirty conservatory will have it cleaned soon!
A special thanks must go to all the controllers that have been very nice and let us GA types fly over/around (sometimes low) there airfields. I'm sure there are a lot of photos out there. Post here?
We did Birmingham today, a nice friendly controller on duty today. And I hope the girl with the dirty conservatory will have it cleaned soon!
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The Met Office [renowned for its ability to incorrectly forecast our weather] is covering its grubby arse. They are terrified they might be sued if they dared to transgress the present concept of 100% safety [which is simply not possible]. Let the Captain of each commercial aircraft make the go -no go decision. They are the ones who are at the sharp end not the grey faces of the EU/UK Health and Safety madness.
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aviate1138 - that's absolutely ridiculous - commercial pilots operate to their company's standard operating procedures - the idea that you let every one of them make a different decision just beggars belief!
The authorities are between a rock & a hard place on this one - if they allowed flights to continue and a large jet, full of passengers fell out of the sky then the lawyers would have a field day (and rightly so!), I can't see how anyone can object to them taking a precautionary approach to this.
The authorities are between a rock & a hard place on this one - if they allowed flights to continue and a large jet, full of passengers fell out of the sky then the lawyers would have a field day (and rightly so!), I can't see how anyone can object to them taking a precautionary approach to this.
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Not sure if this is correct, but according to the CEO of Germany's second biggest airline (Air Berlin), ALL predictions of ash dispersal and therefore airspace closures rely on one (yes - one) computer model run by none other than, you guessed it - the Met Office !
How anyone can trust ANY prediction from these muppets is beyond me. How you can base decisions such as closing most of Europe down on them beggars belief.
Again, not 100% sure of the veracity of the statement.
How anyone can trust ANY prediction from these muppets is beyond me. How you can base decisions such as closing most of Europe down on them beggars belief.
Again, not 100% sure of the veracity of the statement.
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Evidence
Let's have some examples of piston engined aircraft being damaged flying VMC in the vicinity of a volcanic eruption/ash vs those not damaged flying in the vicinity of.
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Biggin had this today.
EGKB 181050Z 29002KT 9999 VA NSC 14/02 Q1015
EGKB 181050Z 29002KT 9999 VA NSC 14/02 Q1015
We had a call from thames advising that a thick layer of Volcanic Ash was reported north of Gatwick, approx 5000ft, verified by the met office (I dont know how either)
The metman suggested we stick that on the metar
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barton flyer
I think you missed the point. I would rather rely on a Captains decision than wait for the faceless wonders decision in Europe to press the green light.
It is all to do with the threat of litigation and little to do with safety.
I think you missed the point. I would rather rely on a Captains decision than wait for the faceless wonders decision in Europe to press the green light.
It is all to do with the threat of litigation and little to do with safety.
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Made it to Oban from Prestwick today, Scottish Info sounded fairly busy with GA. Was slightly surprised that the only other aircraft there then we arrived were 2 others from our club (and the Hebridean Islander). Thought it may have been a bit busier, although there were a few other movements while we were parked. A D-reg Seneca arrived as we were preparing to leave, apparently touring. Don't know when they left Germany, wonder if they are stuck here or if they managed to get out of mainland Europe around the restrictions.
Weather around Glasgow was pretty murky, so we sadly didn't manage to take advantage of the lack of commercial traffic
.
Fisbangwallop.. thanks for the usual great service, although I think we were on frequency for a whole 20nm in the end (we were G-BOAH). Unusually, 119.875 started to break up before Lochgilphead even at 2,500ft, so didn't get the chance to say thanks! I am sure we can blame it on the 'ash'!
Weather around Glasgow was pretty murky, so we sadly didn't manage to take advantage of the lack of commercial traffic
.Fisbangwallop.. thanks for the usual great service, although I think we were on frequency for a whole 20nm in the end (we were G-BOAH). Unusually, 119.875 started to break up before Lochgilphead even at 2,500ft, so didn't get the chance to say thanks! I am sure we can blame it on the 'ash'!
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Dutch airspace now open for VFR. Pirep mandatory.
Last edited by It flies; 18th Apr 2010 at 19:21.
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Excellent, congratulations Katamarino! I wanted to do touch and go's there during my lesson in the Super Cub yesterday. I'm glad at least someone made it. 
Anything out of the ordinary up there? (Except from the lack of Boeing's in the air.)
Anything out of the ordinary up there? (Except from the lack of Boeing's in the air.)