PFLs
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PFLs
Some advice needed.
I passed my PPL about 18 months ago and have just over 100 hours.
I was taught a rather unorthodox way of doing PFLS -
1. Gliding speed.
2. Have a general look out - is this generally an area with a lot of suitable fields (this is usually the case unless over water, mountains or a built up area.
3. Turn cross wind and do your restart checks.
4. At 1500 feet turn downwind. You will have by now by looking for a suitable field, but you make a final decision only when on base leg (you have two ways to turn after all.
This always works - trouble is examiners/instructors doing checkouts don't buy this and that want to know WHAT FIELD???. Pointing one out immediately wastes time - inevitably it is not the field you eventually choose.
Any thoughts?
I passed my PPL about 18 months ago and have just over 100 hours.
I was taught a rather unorthodox way of doing PFLS -
1. Gliding speed.
2. Have a general look out - is this generally an area with a lot of suitable fields (this is usually the case unless over water, mountains or a built up area.
3. Turn cross wind and do your restart checks.
4. At 1500 feet turn downwind. You will have by now by looking for a suitable field, but you make a final decision only when on base leg (you have two ways to turn after all.
This always works - trouble is examiners/instructors doing checkouts don't buy this and that want to know WHAT FIELD???. Pointing one out immediately wastes time - inevitably it is not the field you eventually choose.
Any thoughts?
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You don't always have 2000 feet or more to make your decision. There are a lot of places where airspace restrictions force you down to below 1500 feet. In those cases you'd better have a quick look around, select a field and then make the best of it. 1000 feet is not enough to set up a normal circuit, particularly not if you want to try some restart drills too. Unless you're in a motorglider.
Ultimately, what an instructor wants to see is that you make the best use of the available altitude/time you have to perform whatever tasks are necessary (restart drills, positioning for a field, mayday call, passenger briefing, whatever) and that you possess the handling/judging skills to arrive at the near edge of the field in the proper configuration and with the proper speed to do a short/soft field landing.
How you do that is your own responsibility, although various instructors do drill in a certain sequence of actions. But may I kindly suggest that setting best *glide* speed before you have chosen your field is a bit of a waste of time and altitude. Until you've selected a place where you want to go, it's best to select best *endurance* speed, which is a few knots slower.
Ultimately, what an instructor wants to see is that you make the best use of the available altitude/time you have to perform whatever tasks are necessary (restart drills, positioning for a field, mayday call, passenger briefing, whatever) and that you possess the handling/judging skills to arrive at the near edge of the field in the proper configuration and with the proper speed to do a short/soft field landing.
How you do that is your own responsibility, although various instructors do drill in a certain sequence of actions. But may I kindly suggest that setting best *glide* speed before you have chosen your field is a bit of a waste of time and altitude. Until you've selected a place where you want to go, it's best to select best *endurance* speed, which is a few knots slower.
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In my test the examiner had me do a PFL and then as I was zooming away reduced the engine and said "OK now do another one" I was about 100 feet off the ground at the time!
This was of course a well known microlight pilot in a hotter country.
This was of course a well known microlight pilot in a hotter country.
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Same for me. It's the standard EFATO drill. Drop the nose to maintain flying speed, pick a field 30 degree left or right and go for it. Forget everything else, although if you do have some brain capacity left, use it to close the fuel selector and switch off the master.
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You've been taught the bog standard "East Anglia method". As you say, it goes like this:
- set up a circuit
- work out which field you're going to land in
- point it out to the instructor or examiner.
Provided your instructor or examiner is familiar with the "East Anglia method" this works fine. If they come from a different part of the country, and are more concerned with the rule book than whether you're going to survive, you point out to them that the pass-fail criterion is not "would he have made it to the field he designated from 3000'" but "would he have walked away".
- set up a circuit
- work out which field you're going to land in
- point it out to the instructor or examiner.
Provided your instructor or examiner is familiar with the "East Anglia method" this works fine. If they come from a different part of the country, and are more concerned with the rule book than whether you're going to survive, you point out to them that the pass-fail criterion is not "would he have made it to the field he designated from 3000'" but "would he have walked away".
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In my test the examiner had me do a PFL and then as I was zooming away reduced the engine and said "OK now do another one" I was about 100 feet off the ground at the time!
This was of course a well known microlight pilot in a hotter country
This was of course a well known microlight pilot in a hotter country
>Trim best glide
>Wind direction - know it
>Pick a suitable field - Stick to it where possible! (Sheep fine, Cows not! Watch out for power lines etc......)
>Tell the instructor / examiner your intended field
>Position downwind ASAP
>"Why has it failed?" & Restart procedure (if 1500ft or above)
>Turn on to base, early if necessary! Better to be high & fast than low and slow or blown out.
>Setup final approach
>Add flap as required - don't be hasty though
>Fly steep S turns if too high
>'Warm' the engine if too low!
>Make sure you get it in that field - fly like your life really does depend on it!
Other advice... don't hesitate, if you change you mind, tell the instructor / examiner immediately. Whatever you do get it in that field!
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Strange this,I had my bi-ennial a couple of weeks ago,terrible marginal viz,but we decided to do it.
Anyway we did a PFL,about 1500 feet,near an old air base,but I wanted to land into wind so did a double half turn,but still too high,so we side slipped in.
I reckoned we were still too high but CFI said you only need to make 1/3 rd way along runway so we would have been OK.
I'm only a low hrs pilot but if it happened for real you would not have much chance for rigid procedures,just try and get to where you reckoned first time,especially if low.
Book stuff is great if the chosen,or forced field, is just where it is in the book
Lister
Getting older but still learning
Anyway we did a PFL,about 1500 feet,near an old air base,but I wanted to land into wind so did a double half turn,but still too high,so we side slipped in.
I reckoned we were still too high but CFI said you only need to make 1/3 rd way along runway so we would have been OK.
I'm only a low hrs pilot but if it happened for real you would not have much chance for rigid procedures,just try and get to where you reckoned first time,especially if low.
Book stuff is great if the chosen,or forced field, is just where it is in the book
Lister
Getting older but still learning
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Lister
IMO when flying PFL YES pick up where you would like to go but be ready to change that decision if need be and at the last second. Think on the hoof!
Better to take a tailwind or crosswind into not the best landing site where your not going to hit anything hard than drag out the glide till you pan out into trees or stall the thing in your attempt to get there! lateral thinking not fixation saves you
Pace
IMO when flying PFL YES pick up where you would like to go but be ready to change that decision if need be and at the last second. Think on the hoof!
Better to take a tailwind or crosswind into not the best landing site where your not going to hit anything hard than drag out the glide till you pan out into trees or stall the thing in your attempt to get there! lateral thinking not fixation saves you
Pace
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Lister
IMO when flying PFL YES pick up where you would like to go but be ready to change that decision if need be and at the last second. Think on the hoof!
Better to take a tailwind or crosswind into not the best landing site where your not going to hit anything hard than drag out the glide till you pan out into trees or stall the thing in your attempt to get there! lateral thinking not fixation saves you
Pace
IMO when flying PFL YES pick up where you would like to go but be ready to change that decision if need be and at the last second. Think on the hoof!
Better to take a tailwind or crosswind into not the best landing site where your not going to hit anything hard than drag out the glide till you pan out into trees or stall the thing in your attempt to get there! lateral thinking not fixation saves you
Pace
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In the gliding environment (where for every cross-country flight you're in a semi-permanent EFATO/PFL mode!) I teach that a good landing into a bad field is better than a bad landing into a good field. Am sure this philosphy transfers to the powered environment too. I also point out that (again gliding specific here) that the majority of field landings that result in accidents are due to either (a) a lack of decision making at the appropriate time or (b) a last minute change of plan. So, plan your landing as early as possible and don't change your mind unless you really need to. Remember too that it doesn't have to be a great field....it just needs to be a good enough field!
GPN01
Not sure what you are saying here or if you are agreeing or not with me. Your statements highlighted are contradictory?
don't change your mind unless you really need to. Why would you want to unless you really needed to?
lack of decision making at the appropriate time an appropriate time might require a change at the last minute and hence a decision.
teach that a good landing into a bad field is better than a bad landing into a good field.
Isnt that what I have said? a chosen good field may not be achievable at some point hence a better bad field?
Pace
GPN01
Not sure what you are saying here or if you are agreeing or not with me. Your statements highlighted are contradictory?
don't change your mind unless you really need to. Why would you want to unless you really needed to?
lack of decision making at the appropriate time an appropriate time might require a change at the last minute and hence a decision.
teach that a good landing into a bad field is better than a bad landing into a good field.
Isnt that what I have said? a chosen good field may not be achievable at some point hence a better bad field?
Pace
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@Pace - phrased slightly differently...
Choose where you're going to land and commit to it. Unless you discover at the last minute that the chosen landing area is completely unusable then stick with it anyway. Keep the airplane(glider) under control all the way down to the ground and until you stop. Realising that the field isn't as good as you first thought (power lines on the approach, not quite into wind, animals in the corner of the field, crop higher than expected, etc) is manageable providing you spot these additional problems and deal with them. Changing your mind at the last minute, trying to make it into a 'better looking' field when very low just leads to an accident.
"don't change your mind unless you really need to. Why would you want to unless you really needed to?".....Quite often when people are under pressure their decison making abilities go to rats and they'll start changing their mind rather than calmly assessing the situation and electing to stick with the original plan.
Choose where you're going to land and commit to it. Unless you discover at the last minute that the chosen landing area is completely unusable then stick with it anyway. Keep the airplane(glider) under control all the way down to the ground and until you stop. Realising that the field isn't as good as you first thought (power lines on the approach, not quite into wind, animals in the corner of the field, crop higher than expected, etc) is manageable providing you spot these additional problems and deal with them. Changing your mind at the last minute, trying to make it into a 'better looking' field when very low just leads to an accident.
"don't change your mind unless you really need to. Why would you want to unless you really needed to?".....Quite often when people are under pressure their decison making abilities go to rats and they'll start changing their mind rather than calmly assessing the situation and electing to stick with the original plan.
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Choose where you're going to land and commit to it.
I do think we are arguing the same thing but mixing up good or bad landing sites a good site can quickly become a bad site if your about to land in the stone barn before it.
My attitude is YES commit to a landing area but also survey alternatives left or right or straight ahead if your way too high and it all goes pear shaped !
Be prepared to take them rather than blindly going for it regardless.
In aviation always have an "out" no matter what you do. Only have one door and your asking for trouble as you are then playing russian roulette if it closes on you.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 1st Apr 2010 at 22:57.
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PFL's are a guide to what to do in an ideal engine fail situation.
'If there is such a thing'
In real life you have to work with what you've got.
After passing PPL it would be worth doing PFL's at different heights to what you did in training and even picking a field to the right rather than the left 'If thats what your used to'
'If there is such a thing'
In real life you have to work with what you've got.
After passing PPL it would be worth doing PFL's at different heights to what you did in training and even picking a field to the right rather than the left 'If thats what your used to'
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@Pace. My perspective (having read numerous accident reports and spoken to various pilots who have managed to transform an incident into an accident because of last minute decisions/panic) is that sticking to a plan leads to a lower consequential risk of having an accident. Yes, you do need to keep monitoring the situation and if something happens (undershoot, overshoot, obstruction in the field, etc) that forces you to elect for an alternative then that's ok providing the alternative is a better proposition than sticking with the original choice.
I've had the situation with a couple of my own field landings where I've chosen a 'good' field and at the last minute something has happened that gives the oh sh1t moment but I've committed to making a good landing into what's rapidly become a poor field. In both cases I've walked away unscathed (and glider undamaged). Whether I'd have gotten away with a last minute change to an alternate (which I probably hadn't assessed as closely as the original, so probably had more traps lying in wait) and which would have required a rapid change of heading at low level......I'm not so sure.
I agree we need flexibility and need to keep assessing a situation to ensure that the current plan remains the best one...but there's a point at which you need to accept you no longer have the option to change your mind and so need to focus on doing the best you can to make the best of a bad situation. I teach students that they should always strive to have several options available to them and that when they run out of options they'd better hope they're already on the ground. In a glider (and I guess an airplane with a engine that's stopped) there's a point of no return where the options, perhaps because of your height, remaining energy or landing site choices have dropped to a single choice. That's the time when you stick with making the best landing you can.
I've had the situation with a couple of my own field landings where I've chosen a 'good' field and at the last minute something has happened that gives the oh sh1t moment but I've committed to making a good landing into what's rapidly become a poor field. In both cases I've walked away unscathed (and glider undamaged). Whether I'd have gotten away with a last minute change to an alternate (which I probably hadn't assessed as closely as the original, so probably had more traps lying in wait) and which would have required a rapid change of heading at low level......I'm not so sure.
I agree we need flexibility and need to keep assessing a situation to ensure that the current plan remains the best one...but there's a point at which you need to accept you no longer have the option to change your mind and so need to focus on doing the best you can to make the best of a bad situation. I teach students that they should always strive to have several options available to them and that when they run out of options they'd better hope they're already on the ground. In a glider (and I guess an airplane with a engine that's stopped) there's a point of no return where the options, perhaps because of your height, remaining energy or landing site choices have dropped to a single choice. That's the time when you stick with making the best landing you can.
An outlanding in a glider with a 150' fpm descent rate is a more leisurely process than in an airplane with a dead engine coming down at 800 fpm.
In a glider at 1500' you have plenty of time to examine the field and perhaps select a more suitable looking candidate, but you do learn more and more about the field as you get lower and sometimes you don't particularly like the new information. My last field revealed interesting contours on base and I abandoned my first landing spot in favor of a nice flat spot.
When at 2000' AGL in a glider, I like to have a field in my pocket. It may remain there for quite some time until I either get away or it claims me.
With low ceilings or airspace that restricts my altitude flying power, I tend to hopscotch from one decent field to another so that I know just which field I will be using if the engine suddenly packs it in.
As you get lower your choices for a landing spot shrink, but being able to retract spoilers to go back to a 40:1 glide ratio gives you considerably more flexibility when on final.
In a glider at 1500' you have plenty of time to examine the field and perhaps select a more suitable looking candidate, but you do learn more and more about the field as you get lower and sometimes you don't particularly like the new information. My last field revealed interesting contours on base and I abandoned my first landing spot in favor of a nice flat spot.
When at 2000' AGL in a glider, I like to have a field in my pocket. It may remain there for quite some time until I either get away or it claims me.
With low ceilings or airspace that restricts my altitude flying power, I tend to hopscotch from one decent field to another so that I know just which field I will be using if the engine suddenly packs it in.
As you get lower your choices for a landing spot shrink, but being able to retract spoilers to go back to a 40:1 glide ratio gives you considerably more flexibility when on final.
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As an instructor, restart checks, mayday call and passenger briefing all take second place to flying the aircraft. I have flown with pilots who can rattle-off a perfect set of checks but a) fail to pick a field b) completely fail to make the field they have chosen.
Some ponderings:
It doesn't really matter which method you use as long as you are comfortable with it and competent. When learning you are given one (or more) methods for assessing and positioning. These are merely building blocks. personally, I teach the constant aspect technique.
Achieve best glide speed - any faster/slower and you are eating into precious time/height.
Fly the aircraft.
Don't be too focussed on achieving a particular 'desirable'. A forced landing is a compromise so don't think that you must land into wind or find the longest field.
Fly the aircraft.
Be decisive but keep an eye on surrounding fields - you may choose/need to use one of them.
Don't stretch the glide (equally, don't go for drag too early)
Slipping/turning gives you more options than dropping flap. Once the flaps are down, it is a brave soul who will raise them.
Fly the aircraft.
Practice.
Some ponderings:
It doesn't really matter which method you use as long as you are comfortable with it and competent. When learning you are given one (or more) methods for assessing and positioning. These are merely building blocks. personally, I teach the constant aspect technique.
Achieve best glide speed - any faster/slower and you are eating into precious time/height.
Fly the aircraft.
Don't be too focussed on achieving a particular 'desirable'. A forced landing is a compromise so don't think that you must land into wind or find the longest field.
Fly the aircraft.
Be decisive but keep an eye on surrounding fields - you may choose/need to use one of them.
Don't stretch the glide (equally, don't go for drag too early)
Slipping/turning gives you more options than dropping flap. Once the flaps are down, it is a brave soul who will raise them.
Fly the aircraft.
Practice.
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RatherBeFlying has a valid point re gliders versus power and their glide ratios compared to powered. Flying a brick and your options are more below you flying a glider further afield.
The brick will probably also have a much higher stall speed hence your speed into anything hard will be faster.
GPN01
To be clear that we are talking the same language are you saying that having selected your landing area that you commit to that landing area regardless of of how your flight profile changes or how the landing area changes?
Higher up the area may appear good but as you come lower not good.
Your profile might change not only through misjudgement but also through changing winds, shear etc.
You may be too low and undershoot your landing site but equally too high! meaning even with slip a faster approach speed, a late touchdown point and the possibility of departing your landing area at speed.
I cannot stress enough the dangers of fixation on one plan. In a PFL you should always have in mind the worst case and be constantly watching for other options if your main plan fails to work out.
Pace
The brick will probably also have a much higher stall speed hence your speed into anything hard will be faster.
GPN01
To be clear that we are talking the same language are you saying that having selected your landing area that you commit to that landing area regardless of of how your flight profile changes or how the landing area changes?
Higher up the area may appear good but as you come lower not good.
Your profile might change not only through misjudgement but also through changing winds, shear etc.
You may be too low and undershoot your landing site but equally too high! meaning even with slip a faster approach speed, a late touchdown point and the possibility of departing your landing area at speed.
I cannot stress enough the dangers of fixation on one plan. In a PFL you should always have in mind the worst case and be constantly watching for other options if your main plan fails to work out.
Pace
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RatherBeFlying has a valid point re gliders versus power and their glide ratios compared to powered. Flying a brick and your options are more below you flying a glider further afield.
The brick will probably also have a much higher stall speed hence your speed into anything hard will be faster.
GPN01
To be clear that we are talking the same language are you saying that having selected your landing area that you commit to that landing area regardless of of how your flight profile changes or how the landing area changes?
Higher up the area may appear good but as you come lower not good.
Your profile might change not only through misjudgement but also through changing winds, shear etc.
You may be too low and undershoot your landing site but equally too high! meaning even with slip a faster approach speed, a late touchdown point and the possibility of departing your landing area at speed.
I cannot stress enough the dangers of fixation on one plan. In a PFL you should always have in mind the worst case and be constantly watching for other options if your main plan fails to work out.
Pace
The brick will probably also have a much higher stall speed hence your speed into anything hard will be faster.
GPN01
To be clear that we are talking the same language are you saying that having selected your landing area that you commit to that landing area regardless of of how your flight profile changes or how the landing area changes?
Higher up the area may appear good but as you come lower not good.
Your profile might change not only through misjudgement but also through changing winds, shear etc.
You may be too low and undershoot your landing site but equally too high! meaning even with slip a faster approach speed, a late touchdown point and the possibility of departing your landing area at speed.
I cannot stress enough the dangers of fixation on one plan. In a PFL you should always have in mind the worst case and be constantly watching for other options if your main plan fails to work out.
Pace
I agree absolutely that you should have a plan that provides several options and you should keep reviewing the plan to make sure it remains the best choice. But once you're in the last few seconds of descent it's better to accept the choice and do your best to fly the airplane safely.
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there's examples of crashes where people have committed to a field and then at the last minute change their mind because they've decided that another field 'looks better'.
The answer lies in your piece above. It is fixation which is the killer. Committed is pretty well fixation.
To allow a situation to develop to the point that the aircraft is SO low that a "panic" turn away is made strengthens my arguement. That landing area should have been discarded sooner.
The pilot who continues an approach to a point where he realises hes not going to make it or the landing site is a very bad idea is a victim of committing to a landing area. get there itis or whatever.
The good pilot will already have other options and in good judgement will throw away his planned landing area when he knows its a bad idea.
200 feet is plenty to turn left or right 30 feet is not. 200 feet and you will know whether or not your going to make it and what you are going to land in.
The good pilot will already know what he is turning into the fixated pilot probably will not. The fixated pilots turn will probably be blind and motivated by desperation and panic. That is not what I am talking about.
But its fixation which causes a very late descision and its fixation which is a known killer.
Pace