PFLs
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PFL method
As we are generally taught PFL's in a controlled (planned) situation,this is what I was taught.
Trim for best glide ( don't fiddle about wasting time trying to get this perfect.)
Turn into wind ( you did write the airfield wind direction on your chart...) or look for visual cues.
Pick a field ( could be right below)
What's gone wrong,(fuel selector,mixture,fuel qty)
Attempt restart,if no go, mags off
Fly circuit keeping your chosen field in sight
Don't select any flap until sure of making field
Select flap to bring aiming point to nearer end of field
Switch off master after last flap selection and Mayday call (if you have time).Tighten your/pax straps.
Do your best to get down,down worry about text book landing and preserving your aircraft,just get down to preserve yourself and pax.
You can also unlatch door-some say this reduces cabin integrity but I think I would be a door open man.
Real life (FL) I doubt would give you enough time for all this-just fly the plane
MM
Trim for best glide ( don't fiddle about wasting time trying to get this perfect.)
Turn into wind ( you did write the airfield wind direction on your chart...) or look for visual cues.
Pick a field ( could be right below)
What's gone wrong,(fuel selector,mixture,fuel qty)
Attempt restart,if no go, mags off
Fly circuit keeping your chosen field in sight
Don't select any flap until sure of making field
Select flap to bring aiming point to nearer end of field
Switch off master after last flap selection and Mayday call (if you have time).Tighten your/pax straps.
Do your best to get down,down worry about text book landing and preserving your aircraft,just get down to preserve yourself and pax.
You can also unlatch door-some say this reduces cabin integrity but I think I would be a door open man.
Real life (FL) I doubt would give you enough time for all this-just fly the plane
MM
Last edited by modelman; 2nd Apr 2010 at 21:02.
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Pace
Sorry, I havent read the whole thread, just your last post, so apologies if I am off the mark.
However, while I understand your point about keeping your options open, I think is equally important not to endow the average pilot with exceptional levels of skill.
The reality is many pilots dont practice FLs at all, or rarely, and are a long way short of having the skill set of glider pilots.
Keep the aircraft under control and at all cost dont stall and it is surprising what you can land into or on and survive. I recall the twin than ran out of fuel and "landed" through a roof onto a back garden all of 20 feet by 20 feet and the pilot had barely a scratch. I recall the Pitts that when through a fence, across a ditch, hit a tree and inverted. The pilot was fine.
Unfortunately those that stall the aircraft in and land with high energy in a unusual attitude do not do so well.
So, as another point of view, the danger is encouraging pilots to make last minute adjustments at low level and in consequence their losing control of speed and attitude. Yes, of course they should not lose control, but not only are HF but also currency issues that could mean the pilot is better of maintaining really close control of speed and attitude than attempting the perfect landing site.
Sorry, I havent read the whole thread, just your last post, so apologies if I am off the mark.
However, while I understand your point about keeping your options open, I think is equally important not to endow the average pilot with exceptional levels of skill.
The reality is many pilots dont practice FLs at all, or rarely, and are a long way short of having the skill set of glider pilots.
Keep the aircraft under control and at all cost dont stall and it is surprising what you can land into or on and survive. I recall the twin than ran out of fuel and "landed" through a roof onto a back garden all of 20 feet by 20 feet and the pilot had barely a scratch. I recall the Pitts that when through a fence, across a ditch, hit a tree and inverted. The pilot was fine.
Unfortunately those that stall the aircraft in and land with high energy in a unusual attitude do not do so well.
So, as another point of view, the danger is encouraging pilots to make last minute adjustments at low level and in consequence their losing control of speed and attitude. Yes, of course they should not lose control, but not only are HF but also currency issues that could mean the pilot is better of maintaining really close control of speed and attitude than attempting the perfect landing site.
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Fuji
Maintaining control and flying speed is paramount in any situation. what I am really pushing is for situational awareness and pilots keeping options or other doors open to them incase their only door closes.
I realise that we are not all the same and that some are very low time inexperienced pilots.
While many of us can quite happily make a 90 degree turn off the inbound track at 200 feet many cannot but a 30-45 degree turn left or right of track should safely be in the realms of most.
Fixation means the pilot is not situationally aware and fixation not just in PFLs is the biggest killer of all.
A pilot maybe way to high for his chosen field but is fixated that he lands there. As you Said he is inexperienced so unlikely to be an Ace at sideslipping.
He pushes the nose over up goes the speed. he flies down the chosen field straight into the trees.
Fixated again he is too low and fixated on making his field up goes the nose to get there stall/spin
Left or right of his track or ahead of his chosen landing field maybe a totally suitable area.
It is always having the big picture and hence the options which for me is what should be taught.
Pace
Maintaining control and flying speed is paramount in any situation. what I am really pushing is for situational awareness and pilots keeping options or other doors open to them incase their only door closes.
I realise that we are not all the same and that some are very low time inexperienced pilots.
While many of us can quite happily make a 90 degree turn off the inbound track at 200 feet many cannot but a 30-45 degree turn left or right of track should safely be in the realms of most.
Fixation means the pilot is not situationally aware and fixation not just in PFLs is the biggest killer of all.
A pilot maybe way to high for his chosen field but is fixated that he lands there. As you Said he is inexperienced so unlikely to be an Ace at sideslipping.
He pushes the nose over up goes the speed. he flies down the chosen field straight into the trees.
Fixated again he is too low and fixated on making his field up goes the nose to get there stall/spin
Left or right of his track or ahead of his chosen landing field maybe a totally suitable area.
It is always having the big picture and hence the options which for me is what should be taught.
Pace
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You're all talking about the same coin, but from the opposite side 
Yes keep your options open, but don't constantly change your plan for a slightly better field, otherwise you'll so do at a point so late in the approach that you do so at the cost of control of the aircraft.
Yes keep your options open, but don't constantly change your plan for a slightly better field, otherwise you'll so do at a point so late in the approach that you do so at the cost of control of the aircraft.
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3. Turn cross wind and do your restart checks.
The first thing to do when faced with an engine failure is to adopt a gliding attitude and reason why its stopped and attempt a restart. Do this as quickly as possible, if it's carb icing you will be glad you did.
High key/ low key is about picking a downwind point of around 1500 agl not crosswind.
Adopting best endurance speed is as useful as tits on a bull on a light SE aircraft, stick to simple basics!
Unfortunately flying schools must teach to the flight test. Now that you have your PPL you can take a more practical approach to the forced approach manoever.
Some things to think about:
1) 80 % of all real forced landings are a result of an engine failure that was directly caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot. IMO if flight schools could spent less time fetishizing about the "right" way to fly a forced approach and more on the pilot knowledge and pilot decison making skills to avoid having the engine fail in the first place, everyone would be better off.
2) A for real total engine failure is a true emergency. The only consideration is the survival of the passengers and the condition of the aircraft after it comes to rest is of no practical importance as long as the passsenger compartment is intact.
2) deaccelleration below 9 Gees will not cause any injury. 60 knots to 0 knots with a steady 9 Gee deacceleration takes about 25 feet. One of the huge problems in flight training is the emphasis spent on field selection. Any reasonably flat piece of land will do. The important thing is to fly the aircraft to the intended touch down point, therefore judging the approach path (ie at any point being able to say I am high/low/right on the desired flight path) is critical to surviving an engine failure. Fortunately you can practice this every time you land. Try to get in a glide approach to landing when practicable and if not fly final with a constant power setting and see if you can get to the flare without adjusting power.
3) The deadly crashes on the forced approach almost always involve being low. This either results in a stall/spin or hitting the approach end obstacles at flying speed and still high above the ground. A bit high and fast is way better than low and slow. If you arrive at your intended touch down point going too fast smash the aircraft onto the ground.
4) I was very disappointed at an early poster saying never raise the flaps once lowered. This is another fligh school "Never" commandment that seems to get mindless passed on and applied without any critical thinking in every situation. There is every reason to consider raising landing flaps to the max lift (usually takeoff) position if you are low. Unless you are very close to the ground there will be negligable sink (for your average Cessna Piper aircraft)and a usefull increase in glide distance. Of course it is better to not have put dpwn the flaps too early. Another flight schoolism is the direction to "Never" slip a Cessna C172 with flap allready deployed. This is absolute crap advice, ther is no POH prohibition on flaps with slips, and a slip with flaps will produce a very steep descent angle which will save a too high approach.
Some things to think about:
1) 80 % of all real forced landings are a result of an engine failure that was directly caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot. IMO if flight schools could spent less time fetishizing about the "right" way to fly a forced approach and more on the pilot knowledge and pilot decison making skills to avoid having the engine fail in the first place, everyone would be better off.
2) A for real total engine failure is a true emergency. The only consideration is the survival of the passengers and the condition of the aircraft after it comes to rest is of no practical importance as long as the passsenger compartment is intact.
2) deaccelleration below 9 Gees will not cause any injury. 60 knots to 0 knots with a steady 9 Gee deacceleration takes about 25 feet. One of the huge problems in flight training is the emphasis spent on field selection. Any reasonably flat piece of land will do. The important thing is to fly the aircraft to the intended touch down point, therefore judging the approach path (ie at any point being able to say I am high/low/right on the desired flight path) is critical to surviving an engine failure. Fortunately you can practice this every time you land. Try to get in a glide approach to landing when practicable and if not fly final with a constant power setting and see if you can get to the flare without adjusting power.
3) The deadly crashes on the forced approach almost always involve being low. This either results in a stall/spin or hitting the approach end obstacles at flying speed and still high above the ground. A bit high and fast is way better than low and slow. If you arrive at your intended touch down point going too fast smash the aircraft onto the ground.
4) I was very disappointed at an early poster saying never raise the flaps once lowered. This is another fligh school "Never" commandment that seems to get mindless passed on and applied without any critical thinking in every situation. There is every reason to consider raising landing flaps to the max lift (usually takeoff) position if you are low. Unless you are very close to the ground there will be negligable sink (for your average Cessna Piper aircraft)and a usefull increase in glide distance. Of course it is better to not have put dpwn the flaps too early. Another flight schoolism is the direction to "Never" slip a Cessna C172 with flap allready deployed. This is absolute crap advice, ther is no POH prohibition on flaps with slips, and a slip with flaps will produce a very steep descent angle which will save a too high approach.
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Pace
Yes, I agree, and as another poster said, the same side coin from different sides.
As BPF suggests you are better landing with a little more energy than stalling in. In short whatever else you do be very sure you dont stall or hit a substantial and solid object, short of that experience would seem to suggest you will fair pretty well even if the landing site is not ideal.
Yes, I agree, and as another poster said, the same side coin from different sides.
As BPF suggests you are better landing with a little more energy than stalling in. In short whatever else you do be very sure you dont stall or hit a substantial and solid object, short of that experience would seem to suggest you will fair pretty well even if the landing site is not ideal.
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Practise
A useful thread which has prompted me to think "when was the last time I practised this" so mental note to go out and do....
Last time I recall was climbing out of Wolverhampton, somewhere around 600' agl and my instructor closed the throttle.... in my mental "panic" I instantly looked for and found the perfect landing spot almost dead ahead only to discover I had omitted to push the yoke forward and experiencing the resultant egg on my face as he reapplied the power about 5Kt from a stall!
I know from this and other experiences that some kind of mental "drill" is necessary so one "knows" what to do in the event of a sudden event with the inevitable brain scramble and that it is useful to practise it frequently enough to be able to carry out the drill when something happens and one has to do it for real.
Thanks for an interesting debate - helpful!
Last time I recall was climbing out of Wolverhampton, somewhere around 600' agl and my instructor closed the throttle.... in my mental "panic" I instantly looked for and found the perfect landing spot almost dead ahead only to discover I had omitted to push the yoke forward and experiencing the resultant egg on my face as he reapplied the power about 5Kt from a stall!
I know from this and other experiences that some kind of mental "drill" is necessary so one "knows" what to do in the event of a sudden event with the inevitable brain scramble and that it is useful to practise it frequently enough to be able to carry out the drill when something happens and one has to do it for real.
Thanks for an interesting debate - helpful!
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PFLs at NIGHT
I wonder how many PPLs practice forced landings at night? What tips they have for what could be a serious situation little practiced.
Establish glide. Head for black areas.
Turn off landing lights. At 500 AGL turn on landing lights. If you like what you see keep landing lights on if you dont like what you see! turn them off
Pace
Establish glide. Head for black areas.
Turn off landing lights. At 500 AGL turn on landing lights. If you like what you see keep landing lights on if you dont like what you see! turn them off
Pace
I use a fool proof method to avoid the possibility of a night forced landing....I do not fly single engine aircraft at night anymore. I wonder how many PPL's flying at night actually know the accident statistics ? A study was done on this question in the USA. If you are a non instrument rated PPL flying a single engine aircraft at night you are 25 times more likely to have a fatal accident on any given flight than on an equivalent flight flown during the day.
