First glider...?
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First glider...?
Hi all,
Spring must be around the corner! Me and my son are considering buying our first privately-owned glider. He was until recently and instructor on the Grob 109 and has soloed on glass conventionals, I am in the process of re-soloing having flown both glass (mainly Sport Vega) and non-glass club single-seaters for a few years, albeit some years ago.
Would appreciate any thoughts from owners / syndicate members on what to look out for during the year.
Thanks
Sparky
Spring must be around the corner! Me and my son are considering buying our first privately-owned glider. He was until recently and instructor on the Grob 109 and has soloed on glass conventionals, I am in the process of re-soloing having flown both glass (mainly Sport Vega) and non-glass club single-seaters for a few years, albeit some years ago.
Would appreciate any thoughts from owners / syndicate members on what to look out for during the year.
Thanks
Sparky
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It would also help to know what your ambitions are.
If you are going to spend your time local soaring within a few k of your home airfield, then some variety of K6 would be cheap and you could have a lot of fun. Or a Pirat, if you have somewhere to hangar it or are OK with the heavy centre section rigging.
If you want to fly cross-country then, although K6s et al are perfectly capable, it takes quite a time to build skills to a level where you're completing a reasonable proportion of tasks. Starting off in something of Grob Astir performance or better makes this much more achievable. Beyond that, it's down to budget, your size (for comfort) and the kind of flying you like to do.
Importantly, as in the Skylark II thread, regard the trailer as being at least as important as the glider. A good trailer means you can rig easily and feel confortable flying away from site. A poor trailer can mean you don't even fly locally.
If you are going to spend your time local soaring within a few k of your home airfield, then some variety of K6 would be cheap and you could have a lot of fun. Or a Pirat, if you have somewhere to hangar it or are OK with the heavy centre section rigging.
If you want to fly cross-country then, although K6s et al are perfectly capable, it takes quite a time to build skills to a level where you're completing a reasonable proportion of tasks. Starting off in something of Grob Astir performance or better makes this much more achievable. Beyond that, it's down to budget, your size (for comfort) and the kind of flying you like to do.
Importantly, as in the Skylark II thread, regard the trailer as being at least as important as the glider. A good trailer means you can rig easily and feel confortable flying away from site. A poor trailer can mean you don't even fly locally.
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Good points...
Single seater with trailer, chute, logger up to say £6k (maybe a bit more). We're both 6', want to improve thermalling and basic cross-country skills, go for bronze / silver / BI (him) and complete silver (me) - and I guess have a bit of fun flying without worrying about getting it back in 30 minutes for the next on the list...
Sparky
Single seater with trailer, chute, logger up to say £6k (maybe a bit more). We're both 6', want to improve thermalling and basic cross-country skills, go for bronze / silver / BI (him) and complete silver (me) - and I guess have a bit of fun flying without worrying about getting it back in 30 minutes for the next on the list...
Sparky
Last edited by VQ5X03; 23rd Feb 2010 at 19:26.
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£6K is a very, very tight budget unless you are considering wood as well. You will have to look hard and both being big-ish lads doesn't help.
Have you looked at 'gliders for sale' on the Gliderpilot.net website?
Glider Pilot Network > Classified Adverts
Also, some (maybe most or even all) clubs don't let you fly a privately owned glider until you have a Bronze. Better check at your club - it would be a shame to have one and not be able to fly it.
Have you looked at 'gliders for sale' on the Gliderpilot.net website?
Glider Pilot Network > Classified Adverts
Also, some (maybe most or even all) clubs don't let you fly a privately owned glider until you have a Bronze. Better check at your club - it would be a shame to have one and not be able to fly it.
I've owned two sailplanes - a Blanik L33 solo and a Schweizer 1-35C. I currently own the 1-35. Really liked the Blanik, love the Schweizer. Good performance, about 36:1, great climb, all metal and I can leave it out. Average price here in the states is $15-18K USD, though I got mine for a bunch less. I don't know if there are any on your side of the pond or not. One of my 6'4" buddies used to fly it too. I am 5'8" on a good day. We were both very comfortable in it.
You are likely to get as many opinions as you get replies. There are many good choices on what to buy.
-- IFMU
PS a good stateside classifieds is on the wings & wheels site:
wantads1
There is a nice 1-34 for $11K, a good choice too.
You are likely to get as many opinions as you get replies. There are many good choices on what to buy.
-- IFMU
PS a good stateside classifieds is on the wings & wheels site:
wantads1
There is a nice 1-34 for $11K, a good choice too.
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I'd think that for £6k you'd be pushing it to find a decent glass outfit. Having said that, the Bristol University GC Astir is for sale asking £6.5k (but no chute or logger) - the adverts on gliderpiot.net are a good place to start looking, though there's not much on offer at the moment.
If you can up your budget a little or cut a good deal, then your choice is probably Astir, Libelle or ASW15.
Of those three, the Astir is by far the biggest cockpit - I'm 6' 1" and flew one for some years, and it would have taken a much bigger pilot very comfortably. Have only sat in an ASW15, and it was very tight indeed on me. Libelles depend mainly on breadth of shoulder and length of body - I can fit comfortably, though have yet to fly one.
All three are good gliders. The Astir is probably the easiest to fly by all accounts, and the most comfortable for big pilots. Its weaknesses are a cast aluminium frame, which can crack through heavy landings, and a rigging system which has a reputation for being awkward (but is fine once you know what you are doing - I can consistently rig one with a single helper in 10 mins). Built like a tank otherwise.
ASW15 is much lighter and reputedly more responsive. Offset tow hook is known to require more careful attention when launching, otherwise no issues.
Libelle is reputed to be the nicest handling but hard to fly well, requiring good handling skills. Airbrakes much weaker than the other two, so needing good speed control on approach.
For half the money or less you might find a good Pirat - big cockpit, good airbrakes, quite nice to fly. However, rig and derig it a couple of times to see if the heavy centre section is a problem - it's really a three-person rig. If I was looking to get lots of cheap flying and go for my 50k if a decent day turned up, this would be my choice I think. If you want a glider which will take you into regular XC, then I'd go for glass. The other thing to remember is that most wood is very hard to sell these days, so you might have to write off the cost of a Pirat if you trade up, or just syndicate it out to local soarers.
You'd also fit in a K6E I'd guess, and that's a very nice aircraft which should be under £6k, but you need to be a good pilot to get one round a 300k.
Finally, have you thought of asking at your club if anyone wants to offer an insurance share? A year or two's experience would give you a much clearer idea what you want to buy.
If you can up your budget a little or cut a good deal, then your choice is probably Astir, Libelle or ASW15.
Of those three, the Astir is by far the biggest cockpit - I'm 6' 1" and flew one for some years, and it would have taken a much bigger pilot very comfortably. Have only sat in an ASW15, and it was very tight indeed on me. Libelles depend mainly on breadth of shoulder and length of body - I can fit comfortably, though have yet to fly one.
All three are good gliders. The Astir is probably the easiest to fly by all accounts, and the most comfortable for big pilots. Its weaknesses are a cast aluminium frame, which can crack through heavy landings, and a rigging system which has a reputation for being awkward (but is fine once you know what you are doing - I can consistently rig one with a single helper in 10 mins). Built like a tank otherwise.
ASW15 is much lighter and reputedly more responsive. Offset tow hook is known to require more careful attention when launching, otherwise no issues.
Libelle is reputed to be the nicest handling but hard to fly well, requiring good handling skills. Airbrakes much weaker than the other two, so needing good speed control on approach.
For half the money or less you might find a good Pirat - big cockpit, good airbrakes, quite nice to fly. However, rig and derig it a couple of times to see if the heavy centre section is a problem - it's really a three-person rig. If I was looking to get lots of cheap flying and go for my 50k if a decent day turned up, this would be my choice I think. If you want a glider which will take you into regular XC, then I'd go for glass. The other thing to remember is that most wood is very hard to sell these days, so you might have to write off the cost of a Pirat if you trade up, or just syndicate it out to local soarers.
You'd also fit in a K6E I'd guess, and that's a very nice aircraft which should be under £6k, but you need to be a good pilot to get one round a 300k.
Finally, have you thought of asking at your club if anyone wants to offer an insurance share? A year or two's experience would give you a much clearer idea what you want to buy.
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ASW15 is a good option - but be aware that anything around that sort of price probably won't win any presentation awards.
If you can find a little more money an Astir of some description would fit the bill. Or, buddy up with someone who flies at opposite times to you (if your both mainly weekend then a midweeker and vice versa). Midweek could work even better, they share the aircraft during the week and you get it exclusively on weekends. Find 2 other likeminded people and all of a sudden there's 15-18k in the pot, which will get you a nice ASW19, DG100/200, LS3 or other go-places machine. Not to mention a share of all the costs (Trailorage, insurance, maintenance etc - generally the costs don't go up at the same rate as the aircraft, so 3x the budget doesn't nececerally mean 3x the operating costs).
Chat to your CFI and see what he says - some clubs have a rule along the lines of all purchases must be vetted by the chief for suitability (protects you and your investment, and early bronze pilots going and buying a pup/something that will kill them).
The Schweizers never really worked in Europe, there was no point importing mahogany bombers when you can go to Germany and get the same product. The Solo got canned by Derek Piggot and never really found any real success, possibly as a result.
If you can find a little more money an Astir of some description would fit the bill. Or, buddy up with someone who flies at opposite times to you (if your both mainly weekend then a midweeker and vice versa). Midweek could work even better, they share the aircraft during the week and you get it exclusively on weekends. Find 2 other likeminded people and all of a sudden there's 15-18k in the pot, which will get you a nice ASW19, DG100/200, LS3 or other go-places machine. Not to mention a share of all the costs (Trailorage, insurance, maintenance etc - generally the costs don't go up at the same rate as the aircraft, so 3x the budget doesn't nececerally mean 3x the operating costs).
Chat to your CFI and see what he says - some clubs have a rule along the lines of all purchases must be vetted by the chief for suitability (protects you and your investment, and early bronze pilots going and buying a pup/something that will kill them).
The Schweizers never really worked in Europe, there was no point importing mahogany bombers when you can go to Germany and get the same product. The Solo got canned by Derek Piggot and never really found any real success, possibly as a result.
The Scheibe SF-27 looks like a lot of glider for the money -- also there is an SF-27 website: Die SF 27 Homepage Google translator might be needed here.
One of our members bought a Monerai for very cheap, but the thing has a nasty accident record and people are trying to talk him into something else.
Do find somebody with experience to carefully check over whatever you are thinking of buying.
I've had to back out of two purchases so far because of maintenance / import airworthiness issues.
One of our members bought a Monerai for very cheap, but the thing has a nasty accident record and people are trying to talk him into something else.
Do find somebody with experience to carefully check over whatever you are thinking of buying.
I've had to back out of two purchases so far because of maintenance / import airworthiness issues.
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Personally I don't like the Astir - I find it's handling poor and it is finicky on the speed side on approach and landing. That said, it penetrates well and the view is good...............
ASW15 is a nice aeroplane and handles well...............
Libelle is a bit of a handful all round - not sure I'd go there...........
As previously said - none of them are going to be beauty queens for the sort of money you are paying............
K6e - great alround aeroplane for your silver C, easy to rig and nice to fly.
SF27 - nice aeroplane, easy to rig, nice to fly, I seem to remember they had a lift off canopy which can be a pain...............terrifically well engineered through.............
For my money I always buy Scheicher though............ so ASW15 if you want glass or K6e if you are not fussed
Arc
ASW15 is a nice aeroplane and handles well...............
Libelle is a bit of a handful all round - not sure I'd go there...........
As previously said - none of them are going to be beauty queens for the sort of money you are paying............
K6e - great alround aeroplane for your silver C, easy to rig and nice to fly.
SF27 - nice aeroplane, easy to rig, nice to fly, I seem to remember they had a lift off canopy which can be a pain...............terrifically well engineered through.............
For my money I always buy Scheicher though............ so ASW15 if you want glass or K6e if you are not fussed
Arc
Me7 / AC-4 worth a look
When I decided to get a glider, I had a look at a few and then put together a requirement in my head:
Anyway after looking at various gliders, a low hours Kenilworth ME7a (Aviastroitel AC-4) came up which met my specification, and having spoken to other owners and fliers of the type, I'm happy with my purchase. It doesn't have German standards of finish, but it didn't have a German price tag either. Its finished in acrylic rather than gelcoat, and its the newest glider in our club.
Rigging is one pin for the wings and one for the tailplane. All controls engage automatically. A wing panel weighs 88lbs, so you can just about carry it under one arm; not that I would recommend it!
There have been three others on the market in recent times (including an AC-4C with retractable gear), and I would certainly recommend having a look at them. They were sold as kit built gliders and motor gliders in the USA, although the UK ones were supplied fully finished, so there is a good forum too.
Derek Piggott flew over 500km in one, so I'm confident I should manage 50 or so!
- Own out right - having been in a syndicate I decided I want full control this time.
- Easy/Light Rigging - I wanted a glider I would bother to rig on less than perfect days, as experience showed that conditions could improve better than expected, but its then too late to start rigging.
- Roomy cockpit and generous weight range - I'm 6ft and no beanpole! I tried sitting in a Ka6 and struggled to get out.
- Less than £8K
- Reasonable short field landing capability - No drag chutes or ineffective airbrakes
- Low maintenance construction
- No one offs
- As new as possible
- Towable by the 1200cc Fiat Punto I had at the time
Anyway after looking at various gliders, a low hours Kenilworth ME7a (Aviastroitel AC-4) came up which met my specification, and having spoken to other owners and fliers of the type, I'm happy with my purchase. It doesn't have German standards of finish, but it didn't have a German price tag either. Its finished in acrylic rather than gelcoat, and its the newest glider in our club.
Rigging is one pin for the wings and one for the tailplane. All controls engage automatically. A wing panel weighs 88lbs, so you can just about carry it under one arm; not that I would recommend it!
There have been three others on the market in recent times (including an AC-4C with retractable gear), and I would certainly recommend having a look at them. They were sold as kit built gliders and motor gliders in the USA, although the UK ones were supplied fully finished, so there is a good forum too.
Derek Piggott flew over 500km in one, so I'm confident I should manage 50 or so!
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Thanks guys - much appreciated. Some useful information there to digest.
Another question if I may - do Slingsby Vegas pop up for sale very often? It's been 20 years since I flew one, although I do recall it seemed a decent machine at the time. Have they stood the test of time? Your thoughts ?
Another question if I may - do Slingsby Vegas pop up for sale very often? It's been 20 years since I flew one, although I do recall it seemed a decent machine at the time. Have they stood the test of time? Your thoughts ?
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Put more money in the pot and get and get an LS4, Pegase, Discus etc. Not are they easy and pleasant to fly, they have enough performance to make it interesting. They can also be flown badly and still perform well. If that is too much, a Ka18 may fit the bill (if you can find one). The older and less capable aircraft (Libelle, Astir, Vega) are exactly that and you will outgrow them.
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Big man gliders -
LS 4 is best, but hard to find. Go for an Astir, and sit in it first! Make sure you try rigging it, no two are the same! But two big guys should have no trouble at all.
American gliders are not very good, alas. I would steer clear of anything that is not thoroughly tried and tested. My personal favourite is the Pegase, but it's a bit tight for a big person.
The Astir is perfectly fine for your stage, you will have fun in it; get a sailmaker (yes there are sailmakers inland) to make a set of wing covers and keep it rigged all summer, you will have more flying if your glider is rigged and ready.
But it does make sense to split costs with a syndicate partner .......
American gliders are not very good, alas. I would steer clear of anything that is not thoroughly tried and tested. My personal favourite is the Pegase, but it's a bit tight for a big person.
The Astir is perfectly fine for your stage, you will have fun in it; get a sailmaker (yes there are sailmakers inland) to make a set of wing covers and keep it rigged all summer, you will have more flying if your glider is rigged and ready.
But it does make sense to split costs with a syndicate partner .......
