FAA IR in private turboprop airplane

[winguru]

I have seen lots of non US citizens owning N reg.
The aircraft are air worthy, insured, etc..

[Charley]

I have seen lots of non US citizens owning N reg.

Are you sure? Really sure?

Because I have to agree with IO and others; foreign nationals, unless resident, are not normally permitted ownership of an N-registered aircraft. Normally, they are owned by a US-registered Trust Company, of which the 'owner' that you see is a benefactor.

That's certainly how it works with the N-registered aircraft that I fly.

Previously, you also said that the aircraft is already N-registered and that you won't be re-registering it. Bear in mind that FAA Certificates of Registration are issued with the registrant's name and address. In other words, if you buy it, you must re-register it, even if you use the same tail number.

That's how I understand it. E&OE, of course.

[mm_flynn]

Winguru,

You are mistaken. There are lots of N-reg aircraft in Europe that Europeans have paid for. However, they don't own the aircraft. Most of these are owned by a US Citizen Trust - this is a legal entity that is in fact a US Citizen (however it is not a real single individual). The Trust has a person (or persons) who are the Trustees and these people own the aircraft for the benefit of someone else (the European who you think owns the N-reg at your local airport). It is a bit of an odd concept to not actually 'own' your aircraft, but it works.

The key thing from your perspective is there is a US Citizen real person who owns your aircraft (the Trustee) and if you kill someone he is going to be sued, so you can be sure he will require you to fully indemnify him against this exposure and will want you to have proper insurance. So there will be none of this 'I'll be dead so it doesn't matter if I have no insurance' logic.

I would strongly recommend you don't try and short cut the system. There is a well defined right way to do this.

[winguru]

Hum, thatīs crazy.

I will ask a importer in the country where the plane is being taken.

Also there is only one other model of this airplane there, i will ask them.
They have been on a N reg for some months now, it takes long time for homologation/registry transfer to work in new models overthere.


Also will ask the aircraft seller to see what can be done in terms of insurance.


So from what i see now the problem is not getting a IR rating insurance, the problem is being able to insured with low hour FAA PPL IR after the rating and operate in the other country.

I will ask around, thank you for the info

[IO540]

as a NON US Citizen cannot purchase a N reg aircraft in your own name

AFAIK he can purchase one, and own it, but it cannot be flown.

[youngskywalker]

You would seriously struggle at simcom without an instrument rating and plenty recent experience. My last company sent me to simcom for the king air 200 type course, all the flying was on instruments and the hardest i've yet experienced. In fact i'm not even sure if simcom or flightsafety etc would accept a pilot without an IR.

[mm_flynn]

winguru,

A summary for you based on the following facts

1. You intend to purchase an N-registered aircraft and operate it for a period of time on the N-reg (both in the US and overseas
2. Your pilot does not have adequate time to be insurable in the US
3. Your pilot has a foregin PPL, some instrument instruction (if by an IR instructor this should count towards his 15 hours)
4. Has some instrument time (which also counts towarrds the 40 hours total)
5. You imply will have a based on licence (note - it is not that much more work to get a standalone and you can probably knock off some instrument time while doing it)
6. You have found a US school that will allow your chosen instructor to train for the IR and type checkout
7. Your chosen instructor is insurable in the US to operate and train in a Meridian

Assuming the above is correct, you

1. MUST purchase the aircraft with a proper structure (normally a Trust). THIS IS NOT AN OPTION, the aircraft is not legally registered if it is not owned by a US Citizen. All countries will prosecute you for operating an unregistered aircraft if you do not do this correctly.
2. You MUST comply with any underlying restriction in your PPL upon whcih you base your FAA PPL. In the case of the JAA PPLs this means (I believe) that you can not operate the Meridan without a type rating - and the fact you have a based on FAA PPL does not remove this restriction. Your FAA based on PPL does not give any additional privileges over your foreign PPL.
3. Subject to a legally registered aircraft, your instructor being a CFII, TSA, VISA, insurance as stated above, you can do the IR and type sepecific training together.
4. It is worth the owner considering the following - Pilots of this class of aircraft that have neither a type rating nor FS/SimCom type mandatory insurance training kill themselves at a disproportionate rate
5. Your experienced instructor (assuming he has ferry experience) shoud be able to be insured for the crossing so that should not be an issue

[BillieBob]

In the case of the JAA PPLs this means (I believe) that you can not operate the Meridan without a type rating

This is correct. Whilst not all SET aeroplanes need a type rating under JARs, the PA46 does and there are not many JAA TRTOs that have an approved course on the type (only one in the UK AFAIK)

[flyingfemme]

Winguru - you said, "I'll ask around".

You have. There are plenty of people here who have done (and still do) what you are asking about. The advice you have been given is very good. Not to mention free.

At the moment neither you, nor your mate, have the knowledge necessary to do what you want to do. Engage a professional (get decent recommendations) or your mate may lose a serious amount of money.

1. You need a trust company to own (that is, register with the FAA) an N reg aircraft. Trust me - I do it.

2. Insurance is generally purchased in the area of aircraft residency. For you that would be Europe. No American insurer will touch you at any sensible price. An annual policy, for Europe, can be bought with a ferry/purchase add on.

3. Your mate needs an FAA standalone PPL with complex and high performance signoffs to fly a Meridian. Once he has that he can do the turbine and IR training - there are quite a few specialist "schools" in the US that can do that in his aircraft. Google is your friend and Piper should be able to help identify good ones. Don't discount sim training for the initial turbine stuff; it's cheaper and much better for emergency drills. Once you can manage the turbine then you can add the instruments. Or vice versa if he does an IR in a piston first.

4. Buying an N reg aircraft without the proper procedures will leave your mate with a very expensive metal statue and more expense to get it flying again. When a non-qualifying person/organisation buys an N reg aircraft the paperwork filed with the FAA for change of ownership will trigger an automatic de-registration. If it flies after that you are illegal and uninsured. Getting back on the register may not be cheap.

5. You need insurance. No school worth the name will instruct without adequate insurance and a trans-atlantic ferry flight needs specific insurance provisions. Not to mention EC785/2004 once you hit the EU boundary.

6. FAA flight training does not have to happen in the 48 contiguous. If you will be flying this side of the pond then some of your training needs to be here. Procedures are VERY different.

7. Don't forget the import. The letters on the side have no bearing on the VAT status of aircraft flying in Europe. You've missed the cutoff for the "cheap" Danish import route.

8. Changing the letter on the side of an aircraft can be a very long, and expensive, process. You need to have the maintenance organisation in place before you buy to make sure that you are not buying something stupid. See point 4 for possible outcome. Even if it goes well the aircraft will be grounded for the duration - are you sure that you need to change?

[S-Works]

This is correct. Whilst not all SET aeroplanes need a type rating under JARs, the PA46 does and there are not many JAA TRTOs that have an approved course on the type (only one in the UK AFAIK)

I am just in the process of adding the PA46 to our TRTO approval.

[RatherBeFlying]

The training is vital

Last year a Meridian in Canada lost control at high altitude and crashed. A number of others including the Malibu have suffered similar demises.

[IO540]

Last year a Meridian in Canada lost control at high altitude and crashed. A number of others including the Malibu have suffered similar demises.

Many 747s have crashed too.

[Charley]

Winguru -- if you're still checking this, there's a lot of good information here. Flyingfemme in particular has summarised things very well.

Although not relevant to operating the Meridian, if your friend ever decides to buy something else that will fly above 25,000ft, his pilot will need the 'pressurised aircraft' sign-off too, i.e. endorsements for FAR §61.31(e), (f) and (g). It's something that once caught out an old colleague of mine after he switched between variants of the same aircraft family -- his original one being certificated to 25,000 feet, and the newer one to 31,000.

Not applicable in your case {to the Meridian}, but thought I'd mention it for completeness for anyone who might bring up this thread in the future.

[DLT1939]

6. FAA flight training does not have to happen in the 48 contiguous. If you will be flying this side of the pond then some of your training needs to be here. Procedures are VERY different.

Just to add that if you are undertaking flying training in the UK in a foreign registered aircraft you will also need the permission of the Secretary of State for Transport under Article 225 Air Navigation Order 2009.

[IO540]

True, but only if the instructor is getting paid, and is getting paid for the flight, specifically getting paid for the portion of the flight which is logged as training within UK airspace.

[IO540]

and even if the N reg is overseas and the student is training towards an FAA/IR, he/she will still require TSA security clearance.

What determines the "towards" bit?

IMHO, this cannot ever be determined if the flight is some ad hoc flight which just happens to end up in the logbook whose content is later used towards the FAA IR.

Especially if done with an instructor who has no FAA instructor qualifications, or does have those but has non-FAA ones also.

[IO540]

They wish to receive flight training from an FAA-certificated facility, provider, or instructor that could lead to an FAA rating whether in the U.S. or abroad

IMHO that is meaningless. Take a dual-rated instructor (FAA CFII & JAA IRI, say) doing a training flight in a G-reg plane. No way is a TSA approval needed; there are many such instructors working every day, in the JAA scene. Nobody can control whether one of those flights ends up being used towards an FAA IR one day.

Before any FAA Examiner/DPE will conduct the Test, he/she will want to see TSA approval had been granted.

Not, IME, ever, on flights done in the variously distant past. He might well enquire regarding the 3 hours you did in the 60 days before the checkride... and I am referring to US based FAA examiners here only.

[IO540]

I disagree on the practicality of it, SoCal.

You may like to read my post again, but let me give you another example:

In 2003 I did a 250nm airways flight, in a G-reg plane, with a dual rated instructor. It is logged as a 250nm IFR flight, with 3 approaches (2 x T&G, 1 landing) and the approaches are all of different types.

In 2010 I go to the USA to do the FAA IR.

Are you saying the US based DPE is going to enquire the bona fides of that 2003 instructor? Especially given the G-XXXX tail number in my logbook?

[englishal]

In 2010 I go to the USA to do the FAA IR.

Ha, caught you, what is your name?!...Walter Mitty

In my very humble experience, TSA is about as much use as, and as efficient as a chocolate tea pot..........

[IO540]

but the FAA Instructor who signed off that you were in fact ready for the Flight Test and who would have required the 3 hours to be completed prior to that test would have required that a TSA clearance had been completed.

That I agree with, for him - not least because the last few hours, done typically within weeks of the checkride and resulting in the FAA instructor's signoff, is rather obvious

But that is a world apart from

They wish to receive flight training from an FAA-certificated facility, provider, or instructor that could lead to an FAA rating whether in the U.S. or abroad.

which, taken literally, is completely unworkable and must have been written by somebody without a clue about the way flight training works, and without a clue about the very generous FAA rules on acceptability of training in other ICAO countries.

For starters, most UK instructors from a few years ago are not "around" because they got an airline job / moved away /etc. And even when you have traced him/her, verifying his then qualifications/approvals is next to impossible. Funnily enough, my main PPL instructor vanished without trace (honestly) following some "events" at the school he ran...

Like a lot of flight time logging, most logbook entries have to be taken on trust otherwise the system would be unworkable. Take some ATPL (JAA or FAA) candidate; is somebody going to go through his logbooks and check all 1500hrs against airport movement logs?