Building hours for free. With PPL getting other people paying for my aircraft rental
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Originally Posted by herman the crab
So if I take a nice young lady flying as a passenger and she then sleeps with me because she thinks pilots are wonderful and she had a great flight does that count as renumeration for the flight?!
OC619
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Just take them flying and split the cost between four... Simple.
It's the "advertising a service" part of the proposal which will create big trouble very fast.
Claudio, everyone on here likes flying, and wants to encourage it, in its compliant form. I'll venture that nearly everyone has "paid their dues" to get where they are in aviation. (emphasis on the "paid" part of that). It very simply costs money to leave earth. if you are paying for that, fair enough. If someone willingly gave you flying with full intent, great! If you are circumventing the system to go flying, without paying your way, and proposing to take the general public with you while you do it, I very much doubt that you will get any sympathy here.
Have people on here wangled the odd "free" flying from time to time? Certainly! I doubt that any person posting here has turned down free flying when it was offered to them. I was offered and accepted 20 hours free flying of an MD500 on a 1500 mile ferry flight last fall, to build time - yes, I took the offer. But it was an offer, I did not advertise for it, or take the public along!
It may not ring true for you to announce your plans here, to not pay for your flying experience, when the rest of us would consider that the appropriate norm for any person's progression as a pilot..
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Just take them flying and split the cost between four... Simple.
(That is not advertising is it?!
)
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Wowoooo, what a surprise ! 
Just came back from the job and looks like I became famous overnight !
I make my apologies, I didn’t mean to offend anybody.
I’m sure you all had hard work to get where you are and I didn’t mean to overtake anyone.
As the merciful DUBLINPILOT said :
"We all ask silly questions when we’re starting out"
And saying the truth, I’m really really starting out.
I know it would have been more appropriate to study all the books before coming up with a question like this, but the point was exactly this:
if I realize that I won’t be able to economically afford the whole process until having a career, I might not start it on the first place.
Going back to the thread
I heard from several pilots that one of the best ways to build hours with the PPL is flying with your friends and share the cost.
That’s where I asked myself: what is legally the difference between a friend and a stranger?
There are many good people on this world and you might find yourself with one friend more once you land your airplane.
Ok I got it, I knew that probably I had to pay a fair share of the costs, but still it looks cheap to me! 120£ / 4 people = 30£ per head per hour.
Also I might be able to eliminate the advertising part; how about this:
I’m quite a chatty guy and I’ve always enjoyed breaking the social barriers and meeting new people when I go out on the weekend.
People that I’ve met on Friday night would still be irregular?
Just came back from the job and looks like I became famous overnight !
I make my apologies, I didn’t mean to offend anybody.
I’m sure you all had hard work to get where you are and I didn’t mean to overtake anyone.
As the merciful DUBLINPILOT said :
"We all ask silly questions when we’re starting out"
And saying the truth, I’m really really starting out.
I know it would have been more appropriate to study all the books before coming up with a question like this, but the point was exactly this:
if I realize that I won’t be able to economically afford the whole process until having a career, I might not start it on the first place.
Going back to the thread
I heard from several pilots that one of the best ways to build hours with the PPL is flying with your friends and share the cost.
That’s where I asked myself: what is legally the difference between a friend and a stranger?
There are many good people on this world and you might find yourself with one friend more once you land your airplane.
Ok I got it, I knew that probably I had to pay a fair share of the costs, but still it looks cheap to me! 120£ / 4 people = 30£ per head per hour.
Also I might be able to eliminate the advertising part; how about this:
I’m quite a chatty guy and I’ve always enjoyed breaking the social barriers and meeting new people when I go out on the weekend.
People that I’ve met on Friday night would still be irregular?
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Legally, I don't think there is a difference between a friend and a stranger. The ANO simply says that the costs should be shared. So if you bump into three strangers and share the costs equally between the four of you I don't think that's a problem.
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It won't surprise you to know that cost-sharing comes up quite frequently. We'd all like to reduce the cost of flying to a more affordable level.
In the UK:
In essence, when you drive a car, you can take friends or strangers with you, but you're not allowed to run a taxi service without a licence and a further test of your driving competence. Your car is subject to additional inspection. If you want to carry more people, you need a bus-driver's licence and the coach needs to be maintained to a high standard.
The rules for flying have a similar basis. When you get your PPL you can fly a relatively small number of people and they can contribute to the costs. You can't defray all the costs - you have to pay your share. To make sure you're not running an unofficial taxi service, you're not allowed to advertise for cost-sharers. However, no-one can say whether or not your co-sharers are friends or not - and nobody will take an interest in that.
As soon as you want to do flying for money, you need to prove your competence with a commercial pilot's licence. Only when you have your CPL are you allowed not to pay something towards the cost of your flying - ie without a CPL you're destined to be paying something to fly (with two well-known exceptions).
You should learn much of this as part of your air-law. If you're UK-based, have a browse around the CAA site also. There are downloadable leaflets on whether an AOC is required to run the sort of flight you have in mind, the way in which cost-sharing can be calculated and on charity flights (which is often considered as an option)
In the UK:
In essence, when you drive a car, you can take friends or strangers with you, but you're not allowed to run a taxi service without a licence and a further test of your driving competence. Your car is subject to additional inspection. If you want to carry more people, you need a bus-driver's licence and the coach needs to be maintained to a high standard.
The rules for flying have a similar basis. When you get your PPL you can fly a relatively small number of people and they can contribute to the costs. You can't defray all the costs - you have to pay your share. To make sure you're not running an unofficial taxi service, you're not allowed to advertise for cost-sharers. However, no-one can say whether or not your co-sharers are friends or not - and nobody will take an interest in that.
As soon as you want to do flying for money, you need to prove your competence with a commercial pilot's licence. Only when you have your CPL are you allowed not to pay something towards the cost of your flying - ie without a CPL you're destined to be paying something to fly (with two well-known exceptions).
You should learn much of this as part of your air-law. If you're UK-based, have a browse around the CAA site also. There are downloadable leaflets on whether an AOC is required to run the sort of flight you have in mind, the way in which cost-sharing can be calculated and on charity flights (which is often considered as an option)
Last edited by worrab; 11th Feb 2010 at 21:17. Reason: Speeling
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Worth pointing out the sticky thread at the top of this forum:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...available.html
Many of these issues are discussed to death...
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...available.html
Many of these issues are discussed to death...
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bose-x
But did I or was I receiving payment?
IO540
Exactly my point but... surely she would have to expect payment for her favours prior to the flight to make it illegal?
Am I succesful? - well that would be telling
OpenCirrus619
Or was I ripped off by not getting a fair renumeration if she was worth less than 50%?
flybymike
Well as a helicopter pilot here had his licence revoked by the FAA for his passenger 'holding out' his body parts and performing 'acts' of renumeration I am guessing it may not be legal!
HTC
NB No offence intended to the lady pilots here - I am sure it works both ways!
No it's prostitution as you paid for the sex...... 
IO540
That's called SUCCESS 
However, one could argue that if you agreed to do the flight in return for her favours, it would be illegal. Believe it or not.
However, one could argue that if you agreed to do the flight in return for her favours, it would be illegal. Believe it or not.
Am I succesful? - well that would be telling
OpenCirrus619
Only if she was worth more than 50% of the cost of the flight. If worth less then you paid your fair share.
OC619
OC619
flybymike
I am becoming confused . Are we still talking about the legality of female activity in the "cockpit"?
I am guessing it may not be legal!HTC
NB No offence intended to the lady pilots here - I am sure it works both ways!
Quote:
No person may hold anyone out
I am becoming confused . Are we still talking about the legality of female activity in the "cockpit"?
No person may hold anyone out
I am becoming confused . Are we still talking about the legality of female activity in the "cockpit"?
"No person may hold anyone out (whether the person who is being held out is the same
person as the one who is holding out or is another person) ..."
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NB No offence intended to the lady pilots here - I am sure it works both ways!
Lafite
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s,pose you only can get family to pay for your flying hours.
It would be 100% legit for G Brown to pay for your flying lessons.
The questionable situation arises only when the person paying is aboard the aircraft.
For example, I remember phoning the then top man at the DfT aviation dept. with a question on whether it is OK to rent out an N-reg plane. The answer was absolutely YES, but he said he would be concerned if the owner (i.e. the person receiving the money) was flying in the plane at the same time as the renter.
Then, the legality hinges on what facts can be established by somebody who is out to get you.
BTW I think that US helicopter pilot got done not for receiving a "sexual act" but for flying while receiving it; the allegation being that he could not have been concentrating. Maybe in a helicopter this may be true but no way would it be true in a fixed wing plane with an autopilot
"No person may hold anyone out (whether the person who is being held out is the same person as the one who is holding out or is another person) ..."
Herman - you can even advertise for a lady friend to join you now - just don't hold anyone out or let them hold you out.
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"holding out" is a ripoff from long-term FAA commercial pilot rulebook terminology.
Basically, it means hanging around and saying to people walking past "hey, I have a plane here and you can fly in it, for $XXX".
You cannot do that as a loner who has just a CPL.
It needs an AOC, and of course the pilot needs a CPL/ATPL. This is true probably everywhere in the world, and tends to be enforced fairly strictly because AOC holders moan to their CAA like hell when they see "illegal public transport", and the CAA gets nice fees for the AOC issue so like everybody they look after the ducks which lay the golden eggs
As to what a CPL can do without an AOC, that's a different story. In European airspace, very little apart from being a paid (employed) pilot for somebody who supplies an aircraft for him to fly.
Basically, it means hanging around and saying to people walking past "hey, I have a plane here and you can fly in it, for $XXX".
You cannot do that as a loner who has just a CPL.
It needs an AOC, and of course the pilot needs a CPL/ATPL. This is true probably everywhere in the world, and tends to be enforced fairly strictly because AOC holders moan to their CAA like hell when they see "illegal public transport", and the CAA gets nice fees for the AOC issue so like everybody they look after the ducks which lay the golden eggs
As to what a CPL can do without an AOC, that's a different story. In European airspace, very little apart from being a paid (employed) pilot for somebody who supplies an aircraft for him to fly.
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There is a website called "Pilot Share The Ride" on which people wanting to go from A to B can advertise as pax, and pilots going from A to B can advertise as pilots. Now if a pilot says "I'm going to be flying from LAX to Tucson on tuesday at 10am" and a PAX then contacts him and says "Great can I come, I'll pay my share" then it is legit. Likewise if a pax advertises and says "I want to go from LA to Tucson on Tuesday" and a pilot is already intending to make the trip then again it is legit...No one has been holding out. I guess this could be extended worldwide and into Europe...
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Would you carry total strangers in your car?
Prefer to do it in the plane. If they get out of hand, I can roll the plane, and that'll shut them up. Can't do that in the car...