90 day rule
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From: UK
Another pilot (who isn't an instructor) but who is current to carry passengers could be PIC. (S)he then allows you to act as the sole manipulator of the controls for three landings, and then you're current again.
‘Passenger’ means a person other than a member of the crew;
'Crew' means a member of the flight crew, a person carried on the flight deck who isappointed by the operator of the aircraft to give or to supervise the training, experience, practice and periodical tests required in respect of the flight crew under article 42(3) or a member of the cabin crew;
'Crew' means a member of the flight crew, a person carried on the flight deck who isappointed by the operator of the aircraft to give or to supervise the training, experience, practice and periodical tests required in respect of the flight crew under article 42(3) or a member of the cabin crew;
Stick to the ANO LASORS is out of date and inaccurate.
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From: Londonish
@dublinpilot: Aha.. I see, I wasn't thinking out of the box enough 
Still seems a little dodgy, and I suspect that most FOB's will have something about left seat flying. f you're not hiring, and haven't managed 3 flights in 3 months you're wasting having the plane!
@flybymike: Point is, LASORS is not a legal document governing our flying, the ANO is. LASORS is it's self interpretation, supposedly for the purpose of making life simple for mere mortals like us. Sometimes it falls short.
LASORS brought up the safety pilot.. What is a safety pilot anyway? Is it some form of rating, or your mate from the flying club who holds a PPL? Something official, or simply a bit of nomenclature? It *seems to me* that you're either PIC (with/without pax, however qualified they are), Pilot under instruction (i.e. there's an instructor sat next to you), or pax.
@Jumbo Driver: Go easy, there's no need to despair! Yes, I know LASORS is not the law. Just pointing out I thought it wasn't at ODDs with the 'law'. dublinpilot's already pointed out I missed the point..
As for touch and go - Agree. Not stated it must be full stop; always been my practice to consider touch and go as meeting the requirements. However, every now and then you come across someone who says a touch and go doesn't count. Well, what defines a takeoff and a landing? I'd just like to be able to point to something that says touch and go = 1 landing and 1 takeoff. If it's not there, so be it, just that if it is, it'd be nice to know
Still seems a little dodgy, and I suspect that most FOB's will have something about left seat flying. f you're not hiring, and haven't managed 3 flights in 3 months you're wasting having the plane!@flybymike: Point is, LASORS is not a legal document governing our flying, the ANO is. LASORS is it's self interpretation, supposedly for the purpose of making life simple for mere mortals like us. Sometimes it falls short.
LASORS brought up the safety pilot.. What is a safety pilot anyway? Is it some form of rating, or your mate from the flying club who holds a PPL? Something official, or simply a bit of nomenclature? It *seems to me* that you're either PIC (with/without pax, however qualified they are), Pilot under instruction (i.e. there's an instructor sat next to you), or pax.
@Jumbo Driver: Go easy, there's no need to despair! Yes, I know LASORS is not the law. Just pointing out I thought it wasn't at ODDs with the 'law'. dublinpilot's already pointed out I missed the point..
As for touch and go - Agree. Not stated it must be full stop; always been my practice to consider touch and go as meeting the requirements. However, every now and then you come across someone who says a touch and go doesn't count. Well, what defines a takeoff and a landing? I'd just like to be able to point to something that says touch and go = 1 landing and 1 takeoff. If it's not there, so be it, just that if it is, it'd be nice to know
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From: EuroGA.org
Interesting... the myth about the CAA NQ passenger currency seems to be spread by practically every instructor I have ever met.
The FAA situation (which is what I fly under) is better defined
as described here.
The FAA situation (which is what I fly under) is better defined
A similar 90-day period applies to taking passengers up at night (which is defined as an hour after sunset to an hour before sunrise). In order to take passengers up during those hours, you must have made three takeoffs and landings to a full stop during those hours in the preceding 90 days [61.57 (b) (1)].
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Quote:
Another pilot (who isn't an instructor) but who is current to carry passengers could be PIC. (S)he then allows you to act as the sole manipulator of the controls for three landings, and then you're current again.
NO; because you cannot fly DUAL with a person who is not an Instructor. This would result in him being a passenger whilst you conduct the landings and take offs. You can be either PIC (solo) or Dual with an Instructor who is legally crew Art 155. Anyone else on board not acting as crew can only be a passenger.
Another pilot (who isn't an instructor) but who is current to carry passengers could be PIC. (S)he then allows you to act as the sole manipulator of the controls for three landings, and then you're current again.
NO; because you cannot fly DUAL with a person who is not an Instructor. This would result in him being a passenger whilst you conduct the landings and take offs. You can be either PIC (solo) or Dual with an Instructor who is legally crew Art 155. Anyone else on board not acting as crew can only be a passenger.
Art 150
‘Pilot in command’ in relation to an aircraft means a person who for the time being is in charge of the piloting of the aircraft without being under the direction of any other pilot in the aircraft;
If the person handling the controls is not PIC, the aircraft is certified for single pilot operation and the PIC doesn't hold an FI rating then the person with his mitts on the controls is legally a passenger.
In the end common sense within the law should prevail.
I'll freely admit to teasing here, this little scenario shows up the difficulty of drafting legislation that achieves the result you seek. I suspect the intention was that the out of currency pilot would need to fly the landings solo or with an instructor and that the "sole manipulator" bit was put there to prevent the instructor from following through and assisting.
If I was in enforcement branch and something daft had happened I would try to avoid prosecuting on this particular bit of the ANO and instead go for the PIC in the RHS, there would be plenty to hang him with that would have a better chance of securing a conviction.
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So just to continue the teasing, we know that it is in order for a passenger to take the controls under the direction of the PIC, so where in the legislation does it say that the passenger, in so doing, may not actually land the aircraft? If there is no such legislation what hanging offence charge could be brought against the PIC?
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Well if the thing ends up in a mangled heap then a charge under Arts 73 or 74 would probably be appropriate.
Endangering safety of an aircraft
73 A person shall not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person therein.
Endangering safety of any person or property
74 A person shall not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property.
73 A person shall not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person therein.
Endangering safety of any person or property
74 A person shall not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property.
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: notts
IR & night
Who can explain the following, that is d(ii)?
(d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless:
(i) his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes); and
(ii) his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplanes) or he has within the immediately preceding 13 months carried out as pilot in command not less than 5 take-offs and 5 landings at a time when the depression of the centre of the sun was not less than 12° below the horizon.
(d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless:
(i) his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes); and
(ii) his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplanes) or he has within the immediately preceding 13 months carried out as pilot in command not less than 5 take-offs and 5 landings at a time when the depression of the centre of the sun was not less than 12° below the horizon.
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From: Amsterdam
homeguard, is this FAA rules by any chance?
They use that depression below the horizon thing to make the rules applicable to Alaska as well, which is so high up near the arctic circle that the normal rules of SS+30/60 to SR-30/60 are not workable.
They use that depression below the horizon thing to make the rules applicable to Alaska as well, which is so high up near the arctic circle that the normal rules of SS+30/60 to SR-30/60 are not workable.
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From: notts
Night and the IR
IO540 makes a valid point. A holder of the IR may exercise that privilege at night although maybe not current at night as others have to be.
Please accept my apologise for the previous half completed post which was not intended. Below is my completed posting.
Who can explain the following, that is d(ii) from the UK ANO 1995?
(d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless:
(i) his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes); and
(ii) his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplanes) or he has within the immediately preceding 13 months carried out as pilot in command not less than 5 take-offs and 5 landings at a time when the depression of the centre of the sun was not less than 12° below the horizon.
Which was later amended to the following ANO 2005
Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes)
Minimum age—17 years
No maximum period of validity
Privileges:
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of a Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) shall be entitled to fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any of the types or classes specified or otherwise falling within an aircraft rating included in the licence.
(2) He shall not—
(d) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification (aeroplane);
(g) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane carrying passengers unless within the preceding 90 days he has made at least three take-offs and three landings as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of the same type or class and if such a flight is to be carried out at night and his licence does not include an instrument rating (aeroplane) at least one of those take-offs and landings shall have been at night.
What skills provided in the IR training and testing give the skills to make a landing at night?
While it is not hard to see that at an international airport with state of the art lighting guidance it will be no less odeous to landing in weather minima, it should be noted that landing at a small licenced airfied with the minima edge and Wing Bar lights perhaps aided by APAPI is not the same at all.
Please accept my apologise for the previous half completed post which was not intended. Below is my completed posting.
Who can explain the following, that is d(ii) from the UK ANO 1995?
(d) He shall not fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless:
(i) his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes); and
(ii) his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplanes) or he has within the immediately preceding 13 months carried out as pilot in command not less than 5 take-offs and 5 landings at a time when the depression of the centre of the sun was not less than 12° below the horizon.
Which was later amended to the following ANO 2005
Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes)
Minimum age—17 years
No maximum period of validity
Privileges:
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of a Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) shall be entitled to fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any of the types or classes specified or otherwise falling within an aircraft rating included in the licence.
(2) He shall not—
(d) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane at night unless his licence includes a night rating (aeroplanes) or a night qualification (aeroplane);
(g) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane carrying passengers unless within the preceding 90 days he has made at least three take-offs and three landings as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of the same type or class and if such a flight is to be carried out at night and his licence does not include an instrument rating (aeroplane) at least one of those take-offs and landings shall have been at night.
What skills provided in the IR training and testing give the skills to make a landing at night?
While it is not hard to see that at an international airport with state of the art lighting guidance it will be no less odeous to landing in weather minima, it should be noted that landing at a small licenced airfied with the minima edge and Wing Bar lights perhaps aided by APAPI is not the same at all.
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From: EuroGA.org
Out of interest, is anybody able to unravel the ANO to work out whether the holder of a UK JAA PPL, a valid and current FAA IR, still needs the night passenger carriage currency, in a G-reg?
I think not; only a JAA IR will do for this purpose. But could be wrong.
The ANO often refers to an "Instrument Rating" but elsewhere defines this as being a JAA one. Most confusing...
And if I am wrong, the pilot flying on his UK PPL needs only 1+1 at night (which is sunset+30mins), whereas the same pilot flying on his FAA PPL needs 3+3 at night (which is sunset+60mins). The foregoing is true for both G-reg and N-reg; the former can be flown worldwide on any ICAO PPL (ANO Art 26) and the latter can be flown on a UK PPL within UK airspace (FAR 61.3). So, given that I have both licenses, I can pick and choose.
The catch, one of those never-woken aviation law sleeping dogs, is that in the UK night=IFR and the FARs require an IR for any IFR flight so one probably cannot fly at night at all in the UK on an FAA license unless one holds an IR and since this IR has to be on the certificate on which one is flying at the time it has to be an FAA one (a JAA one won't do). Don't ya just love this stuff
I think not; only a JAA IR will do for this purpose. But could be wrong.
The ANO often refers to an "Instrument Rating" but elsewhere defines this as being a JAA one. Most confusing...
And if I am wrong, the pilot flying on his UK PPL needs only 1+1 at night (which is sunset+30mins), whereas the same pilot flying on his FAA PPL needs 3+3 at night (which is sunset+60mins). The foregoing is true for both G-reg and N-reg; the former can be flown worldwide on any ICAO PPL (ANO Art 26) and the latter can be flown on a UK PPL within UK airspace (FAR 61.3). So, given that I have both licenses, I can pick and choose.
The catch, one of those never-woken aviation law sleeping dogs, is that in the UK night=IFR and the FARs require an IR for any IFR flight so one probably cannot fly at night at all in the UK on an FAA license unless one holds an IR and since this IR has to be on the certificate on which one is flying at the time it has to be an FAA one (a JAA one won't do). Don't ya just love this stuff
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Homeguard
The current edition of the ANO can be downloaded here.
License privileges are in Schedule 8, Note that there are separate versions for UK and JAA Licenses.
The license privileges now refer to "night", which is defined in Art 155
The old definition which involved measuring the depression of something you cannot see is the one I remember from my Air Law in 1974.
Not sure what you mean by this, the Privileges require him to have a Night Rating or Night Qualification to be PIC at night. To carry passengers at night he needs to have done at least 3 take-offs and landings in the past 90 days, one of which must have been at night. If he has an IR the requirement for one of them to be at night is lifted.
It seems a relatively small additional privilige in exchange for the additional knowledge and experience that the grant of an IR involves over the basic newly minted PPL with a night rating.
And that's BEFORE he's done the course.
The current edition of the ANO can be downloaded here.
License privileges are in Schedule 8, Note that there are separate versions for UK and JAA Licenses.
The license privileges now refer to "night", which is defined in Art 155
‘Night’ means the time from half an hour after sunset until half an hour before sunrise
(both times inclusive), sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level;
(both times inclusive), sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level;
What skills provided in the IR training and testing give the skills to make a landing at night?
It seems a relatively small additional privilige in exchange for the additional knowledge and experience that the grant of an IR involves over the basic newly minted PPL with a night rating.
[(a)] An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a
PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A)
and shall have completed at least 50 hours
cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command in
aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10
hours shall be in aeroplanes.
PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A)
and shall have completed at least 50 hours
cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command in
aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10
hours shall be in aeroplanes.
Last edited by Mike Cross; 15th December 2009 at 21:24.
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From: UK
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From: Scotland
Isn't this all getting a bit complicated? The original question didn't mention night flying or ratings, just the 90day rule.
Get in, start up, you are allowed to fly solo? Fly, 3 touch & go's. Land, fill in log book. Job done, where's the problem?
Get in, start up, you are allowed to fly solo? Fly, 3 touch & go's. Land, fill in log book. Job done, where's the problem?
