90 day rule
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90 day rule
If you've gone outwith the CAA's 90 day rule for flying with a passenger, does this include going up with another PPL who is within the 90 day limit, and current on type rating? Or, if you nominate yourself as PIC, you can only fly on your own?
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I guess it would depend on whether or not you intend to use a club aircraft or one you own/have a share in.
If it is a club aircraft, then club rules apply.
If it is a club aircraft, then club rules apply.
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To renew the 90-day night passenger carriage recency you need to either go up alone, or with an instructor (who either needs to be passenger night current, or holds a current JAA IR).
You have to do 3 takeoffs and 3 landings (not touch and goes; one has to taxi round although if you had a huge runway to play with you could do a full stop and an immediate takeoff; this is potentially hazardous) between sunset+30mins and sunrise-30mins.
The above is for G-reg / UK licenses. FAA rules are different and more sensible; you can take along a pilot who is night current himself, but the 3+3 have to be done between sunset+60mins and sunrise-60mins, IIRC.
Club rules can be whatever they are. If the owner of the plane requires you to wear pink underpants then you have to do that
You have to do 3 takeoffs and 3 landings (not touch and goes; one has to taxi round although if you had a huge runway to play with you could do a full stop and an immediate takeoff; this is potentially hazardous) between sunset+30mins and sunrise-30mins.
The above is for G-reg / UK licenses. FAA rules are different and more sensible; you can take along a pilot who is night current himself, but the 3+3 have to be done between sunset+60mins and sunrise-60mins, IIRC.
Club rules can be whatever they are. If the owner of the plane requires you to wear pink underpants then you have to do that
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Quick Q, where is it defined / what is the definition which separates a touch and go from a take off and landing?
... and 90 day currency for pax also applies during the day.
... and 90 day currency for pax also applies during the day.
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Club rules can be whatever they are. If the owner of the plane requires you to wear pink underpants then you have to do that
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Usually anywhere south of Leeds with the pink pants is a possibility
Also there is an alarming selection of man bags being used as flight bags.
And even some Yak drivers with pink flights suits.
O aye and yes you can just jump in by yourself and do 3 circuits.
Why bother though for 15 quid cash in hand you should be able to find a instructor who is willing to look out the window for 3 circuits. And if your in your 2nd year for your SEP rating just do an hour and get that signed off as well.
Also there is an alarming selection of man bags being used as flight bags.
And even some Yak drivers with pink flights suits.
O aye and yes you can just jump in by yourself and do 3 circuits.
Why bother though for 15 quid cash in hand you should be able to find a instructor who is willing to look out the window for 3 circuits. And if your in your 2nd year for your SEP rating just do an hour and get that signed off as well.
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If you've gone outwith the CAA's 90 day rule for flying with a passenger, does this include going up with another PPL who is within the 90 day limit, and current on type rating?
Or, if you nominate yourself as PIC, you can only fly on your own?
Page 254 of the current LASORS, in section F:
A pilot who has not met the experience criteria above will be required to complete the above requirements either as Pilot-in-Command of aeroplanes/helicopters as appropriate or with a flight instructor, providing that the instructor does not influence the controls at any time. The carriage of a safety pilot is not permitted to satisfy this requirement.
IO540:
Do you have a reference for that? On heavier metal, the CAA had no problems some years ago with our doing T & G for the 3 T/O and landings on type prior to flying line sectors.
You have to do 3 takeoffs and 3 landings (not touch and goes; one has to taxi round although if you had a huge runway to play with you could do a full stop and an immediate takeoff; this is potentially hazardous) between sunset+30mins and sunrise-30mins.
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LASORS E4.2c. They have to be full stop landings. But this is something that's specific for the NQ; for the 90-day rule as applicable in daytime T&Gs are OK.
As IO540 said, if the runway is sufficiently long, you can do Stop&Gos. Otherwise it's full stop taxibacks.
As IO540 said, if the runway is sufficiently long, you can do Stop&Gos. Otherwise it's full stop taxibacks.
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90 day rule
3x take-off and 3x landings as sole manipulator of the controls (no physical input from an instructor - these requirements may be done dual - within the previous 90 days to carry passengers.
If it is required to fly at night and carry a passenger at least 1x take-off and 1x landing of the 3 must have been done during 'night hours dual or solo.
They can be touch & goes or stop-goes.
The Instructor is not required to meet the 'with passengers' requirements when instructing as both pilots are acting as crew. If a passenger is carried during any check or training that confuses issues somewhat but that will not be new and no one should expect utopia from legislation.
Having an IR has nothing to do with it.
If it is required to fly at night and carry a passenger at least 1x take-off and 1x landing of the 3 must have been done during 'night hours dual or solo.
They can be touch & goes or stop-goes.
The Instructor is not required to meet the 'with passengers' requirements when instructing as both pilots are acting as crew. If a passenger is carried during any check or training that confuses issues somewhat but that will not be new and no one should expect utopia from legislation.
Having an IR has nothing to do with it.
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Since when has LASORS been the law?
Schedule 8 of the ANO, Priveliges of PPL(A)
The quote from LASORS
Appears to be bollix, the ANO does not require you to be either PIC or with an instructor, the only requirement is that you are the sole manipulator of the controls.
I do wish the editor of LASORS would stick to the legal requirements and not make up his own rules. They are confusing enough already without his additional input.
Schedule 8 of the ANO, Priveliges of PPL(A)
(2) He shall not:..........
(g) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane carrying passengers unless within the preceding 90 days he has made at least three take-offs and three landings as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of the same type or class and if such a flight is to be carried out at night and his licence does not include an instrument rating (aeroplane) at least one of those take-offs and landings shall have been at night.
(g) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane carrying passengers unless within the preceding 90 days he has made at least three take-offs and three landings as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of the same type or class and if such a flight is to be carried out at night and his licence does not include an instrument rating (aeroplane) at least one of those take-offs and landings shall have been at night.
A pilot who has not met the experience criteria above will be required to complete the above requirements either as Pilot-in-Command of aeroplanes/helicopters as appropriate or with a flight instructor, providing that the instructor does not influence the controls at any time. The carriage of a safety pilot is not permitted to satisfy this requirement.
I do wish the editor of LASORS would stick to the legal requirements and not make up his own rules. They are confusing enough already without his additional input.
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To say recency landings need to be full stop landings is not substantive in my opinion. No reference has been offered for this assertion and I totally agree with kenparry when he says that the CAA have no problem with 90-day recency using touch-and-gos in "heavy metal". Of course you are allowed to do touch-and-gos for recency - and everybody does.
The quote from LASORS offered above by BackPacker refers to the experience required for the initial issue of a Night Qualification, and is quite irrelevant to this question. LASORS incidentally is NOT in itself authoritative in this, or any other regard and should only ever be used as a compendium through which to refer to the appropriate authoritative document.
I would suggest that, for 90-day recency, the UK ANO, Schedule 8 is the authoritative document and in defining the recency requirements for various licences it merely requires three take-offs and three landings. There is no requirement for each landing to be a full-stop.
JD
The quote from LASORS offered above by BackPacker refers to the experience required for the initial issue of a Night Qualification, and is quite irrelevant to this question. LASORS incidentally is NOT in itself authoritative in this, or any other regard and should only ever be used as a compendium through which to refer to the appropriate authoritative document.
I would suggest that, for 90-day recency, the UK ANO, Schedule 8 is the authoritative document and in defining the recency requirements for various licences it merely requires three take-offs and three landings. There is no requirement for each landing to be a full-stop.
JD
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Doesn't it make it fun trying to keep everything above board when it's not even clear what 'above board' is 
In reference to Mike Cross's post, I don't think they're at odds in this case, the two extracts describe different situations:
the ANO says in order to carry passengers, one must have (...) the 3 takeoffs and landings. Now, those could quite validly be made, whilst carrying pax - assuming you're already in currency. You may be the sole manipulator, either with, or without being PIC.
Meanwhile LASORS says "If you have lapsed ", one must be PIC, or with an instructor. That's also correct, if implicit.. As one is not current to fly with pax, one must get those 3 in either solo (in which case I'd hope you're PIC!), or flying with someone else.. well, no pax allowed, so it's going to be an instructor? Which usually means you're not PIC.
I guess that doesn't account for multi crew a/c tho..
Clear... as mud!
I'd love to have an authoritative answer on the touch 'n go thing though..
In reference to Mike Cross's post, I don't think they're at odds in this case, the two extracts describe different situations:
the ANO says in order to carry passengers, one must have (...) the 3 takeoffs and landings. Now, those could quite validly be made, whilst carrying pax - assuming you're already in currency. You may be the sole manipulator, either with, or without being PIC.
Meanwhile LASORS says "If you have lapsed ", one must be PIC, or with an instructor. That's also correct, if implicit.. As one is not current to fly with pax, one must get those 3 in either solo (in which case I'd hope you're PIC!), or flying with someone else.. well, no pax allowed, so it's going to be an instructor? Which usually means you're not PIC.
I guess that doesn't account for multi crew a/c tho..
Clear... as mud!
I'd love to have an authoritative answer on the touch 'n go thing though..
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Meanwhile LASORS says "If you have lapsed ", one must be PIC, or with an instructor. That's also correct, if implicit.. As one is not current to fly with pax, one must get those 3 in either solo (in which case I'd hope you're PIC!), or flying with someone else.. well, no pax allowed, so it's going to be an instructor? Which usually means you're not PIC.
Another pilot (who isn't an instructor) but who is current to carry passengers could be PIC. (S)he then allows you to act as the sole manipulator of the controls for three landings, and then you're current again.
Whether you can find another non instructor pilot, willing to do that for you in another question.
dp
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So are we then saying that although the CAA promulgate by various means that a 90 day current safety pilot who is not an instructor may not accompany the pilot concerned, that by the simple expedient of nominating he who would be the passenger as the pilot in command, and the non current pilot as the "manipulating" passenger, the exercise becomes legal?
If so, by what means would the pilot seeking to become current record such flight(s) in his log book?
This forum is a triumph of legal interpretation.
If so, by what means would the pilot seeking to become current record such flight(s) in his log book?
This forum is a triumph of legal interpretation.
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It gets better
Who says he needs to record it in his log book?
Go read Art 35
Not me guv, all I'm doing is showing you what the law is. It's the editor of LASORS who's doing the interpreting.
Who says he needs to record it in his log book?
Go read Art 35
Personal flying log book
35 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shall keep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:
(a) the name and address of the holder of the log book;
(b) particulars of the holder’s licence (if any) to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft; and
(c) the name and address of his employer (if any).
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable,
including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.
(3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.
(4) Particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in a flight simulator shall be recorded in the log book, including:
(a) the date of the test or examination;
(b) the type of simulator;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted; and
(d) the nature of the test or examination.
35 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shall keep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:
(a) the name and address of the holder of the log book;
(b) particulars of the holder’s licence (if any) to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft; and
(c) the name and address of his employer (if any).
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable,
including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.
(3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.
(4) Particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in a flight simulator shall be recorded in the log book, including:
(a) the date of the test or examination;
(b) the type of simulator;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted; and
(d) the nature of the test or examination.
This forum is a triumph of legal interpretation.
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LASORS is not authoritative - it is not the law.
How much more authoritative a source do you want than Schedule 8 of the UK Air Navigation Order? That is where the recency requirement is stated. Full-stop landings are not specified, therefore it is perfectly reasonable to conclude they are not required.
Sometimes I despair ...
JD
Sometimes I despair ...
JD