Owned or Hire
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,831
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From: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
however you bend it .....you mend it !!!
"however you bend it .....you mend it !!!"
Privately owned aircraft are insured. You break it, insurance pays to mend it, just as if it was hired. You will have to pay more for your insurance afterwards - but you might find as a hirer, nobody would hire to you.
Wear and tear should be covered in your hourly + monthly charges.
At present hire charges, our group jodel becomes competitive at less than 10 hours.
Privately owned aircraft are insured. You break it, insurance pays to mend it, just as if it was hired. You will have to pay more for your insurance afterwards - but you might find as a hirer, nobody would hire to you.
Wear and tear should be covered in your hourly + monthly charges.
At present hire charges, our group jodel becomes competitive at less than 10 hours.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
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From: Midlands
You are getting to different views on the scale of the risks and the brake even points. This represents the difference between C of A costs and permit costs. To replace an engine in a PA28 is likely to cost north of £15k, to replace an O200 in a permit machine can be done for a few thousand if you know the right people. As has been said, on a “Jodel type” permit machine the brake even is around 10 hours a year, on C of A, around 40 hours. There are obviously many shades of grey within each category.
Rod1
Rod1
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 250
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From: York
85 hours in the last 12 months........Ins £900.... Hangarage £1020........Fuel......£2100.......Permit £180.....Misc parts allow £500..
Total around £4700, round up to £5000....Less than £60 an hour. Rarely fly without someone in the spare seat and not one of them (except Grandaughter) has walked away without contributing. Note to self....must tell son to pay her more pocket money. I go where and when I want, however no night and no imc.
That's my take on it for what it's worth. Whatever you do....think before you leap into buying. Think before you buy into a group (you gotta get on and the more there is, the harder it is). Think hard before buying a permit a/c. Can you do most of the work yourself?.. Have you time? Can you afford it, and the inevitable shock of it costing more than you thought?
I would rent for a while and fly a few types first, try a couple of permit types too. I am sure if you go to a fly in and introduce yourself some one will want to show his baby off.
G-BJOT Jodel D117... I love it!!!!!
Total around £4700, round up to £5000....Less than £60 an hour. Rarely fly without someone in the spare seat and not one of them (except Grandaughter) has walked away without contributing. Note to self....must tell son to pay her more pocket money. I go where and when I want, however no night and no imc.
That's my take on it for what it's worth. Whatever you do....think before you leap into buying. Think before you buy into a group (you gotta get on and the more there is, the harder it is). Think hard before buying a permit a/c. Can you do most of the work yourself?.. Have you time? Can you afford it, and the inevitable shock of it costing more than you thought?
I would rent for a while and fly a few types first, try a couple of permit types too. I am sure if you go to a fly in and introduce yourself some one will want to show his baby off.
G-BJOT Jodel D117... I love it!!!!!
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
To replace an engine in a PA28 is likely to cost north of £15k, to replace an O200 in a permit machine can be done for a few thousand if you know the right people.
It should not be like that but GA is full of people ranging from well meaning but incompetent to outright crooks and it takes a while to put together a bunch of people one can trust....
A plane is not a BMW which you can just drop off at any BMW dealer...
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 2
From: north of barlu
Rod 1
Quote
To replace an engine in a PA28 is likely to cost north of £15k, to replace an O200 in a permit machine can be done for a few thousand if you know the right people.
The overhaul of a direct drive aircraft engine is a quite a basic engineering task but it has to be done within the limits set by the engine builder and those limits do not change just because the aircraft has an LAA permit.
So apart from saving may be £2K in labour because you can fit the engine yourself and about £500 because you don't need the Part M certification (a stab at the adminstration costs for this job by a part M company) I am at a loss to know how you save IRO £10K.
Oh! perhaps I can help.....................I know of one engine builder well liked by LAA types who builds an engine to a price. Most LAA types are very happy with this as the engine usualy runs for about 500 hours, as most of these people only do 40 hours a year the shoddy workmanship takes 11 or 12 years to become evident. This is long after any form of redress can be had for the junk the unfortunate owners have paid for.
The worst thing that I have seen from this engine builder was an engine fitted with a bent crankshaft. One of his customers got lucky and he fitted chrome rings in a chrome bore, this engine was wrecked after 50 hours with large amounts of metal in the filters. this happend so quickily that the builder in question had to refund the money, however it left the owner trying to find a set of long out of production cylinders that would be good enough to overhaul.
The fact is that you only get what you pay for and if you are happy to fly with a £4K overhaul then you had better practice your forced landing skills on a very regular basis, and seek devine help when crossing the channel.
To replace an engine in a PA28 is likely to cost north of £15k, to replace an O200 in a permit machine can be done for a few thousand if you know the right people.
The overhaul of a direct drive aircraft engine is a quite a basic engineering task but it has to be done within the limits set by the engine builder and those limits do not change just because the aircraft has an LAA permit.
So apart from saving may be £2K in labour because you can fit the engine yourself and about £500 because you don't need the Part M certification (a stab at the adminstration costs for this job by a part M company) I am at a loss to know how you save IRO £10K.
Oh! perhaps I can help.....................I know of one engine builder well liked by LAA types who builds an engine to a price. Most LAA types are very happy with this as the engine usualy runs for about 500 hours, as most of these people only do 40 hours a year the shoddy workmanship takes 11 or 12 years to become evident. This is long after any form of redress can be had for the junk the unfortunate owners have paid for.
The worst thing that I have seen from this engine builder was an engine fitted with a bent crankshaft. One of his customers got lucky and he fitted chrome rings in a chrome bore, this engine was wrecked after 50 hours with large amounts of metal in the filters. this happend so quickily that the builder in question had to refund the money, however it left the owner trying to find a set of long out of production cylinders that would be good enough to overhaul.
The fact is that you only get what you pay for and if you are happy to fly with a £4K overhaul then you had better practice your forced landing skills on a very regular basis, and seek devine help when crossing the channel.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 799
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From: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
I am a bit of a fan of the permit as compared to the C of A aircraft, really on grounds of price.
However, yesterday I flew Old Buckenham to Gamston to collect my daughter, who is at Sheffield Uni. A friend has a PA28 which he has no time to fly, so we quickly came to a reasonable arrangement. On departing Old Buck I hit some showers and low cloud. West of Kings Lynn and over the Lincolnshire fens I ran into some further low cloud, so was IMC for a while before emerging into the bright sun of a winter's day, which persisted all the way to Gamston.
Now, my daughter takes after her parent. Has her father's good looks, of course.
Also has inherited her mothers inability to travel light. In fact, we have over the years held up RyanAir's share price with excess baggage. 
Two suitcases, a laptop and a huge shoulder bag (what do they really find to carry?) all went into the rear and we headed for home.
Same cloud on the way back, this time climbing to 6000' for VFR on top all the way back to Norfolk.
What a beautiful day. The point of all this is that I could not have done this trip in my last aircraft, the Pioneer, on grounds of being both day VFR only and because of the limited MAUW. I suppose an RV of some sort would have addressed one of these issues but not the other (not legally anyway). So, sometimes you need a conventional C of A aircraft to do the business. Knowing someone who has one begging to be flown is a good solution.
My girl is studying photography. I didn't notice her snapping away until we got home. She has some real arty stuff, one of which will go on the wall when I have the time. I might even post here if I can work out how to do it.
However, yesterday I flew Old Buckenham to Gamston to collect my daughter, who is at Sheffield Uni. A friend has a PA28 which he has no time to fly, so we quickly came to a reasonable arrangement. On departing Old Buck I hit some showers and low cloud. West of Kings Lynn and over the Lincolnshire fens I ran into some further low cloud, so was IMC for a while before emerging into the bright sun of a winter's day, which persisted all the way to Gamston.
Now, my daughter takes after her parent. Has her father's good looks, of course.
Also has inherited her mothers inability to travel light. In fact, we have over the years held up RyanAir's share price with excess baggage. Two suitcases, a laptop and a huge shoulder bag (what do they really find to carry?) all went into the rear and we headed for home. Same cloud on the way back, this time climbing to 6000' for VFR on top all the way back to Norfolk.
What a beautiful day. The point of all this is that I could not have done this trip in my last aircraft, the Pioneer, on grounds of being both day VFR only and because of the limited MAUW. I suppose an RV of some sort would have addressed one of these issues but not the other (not legally anyway). So, sometimes you need a conventional C of A aircraft to do the business. Knowing someone who has one begging to be flown is a good solution.
My girl is studying photography. I didn't notice her snapping away until we got home. She has some real arty stuff, one of which will go on the wall when I have the time. I might even post here if I can work out how to do it.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
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From: Midlands
A&C, you are a professional engineer, I am just an amateur who built an aircraft, but;
“Oh! perhaps I can help.....................I know of one engine builder well liked by LAA types who builds an engine to a price. Most LAA types are very happy with this as the engine usualy runs for about 500 hours, as most of these people only do 40 hours a year the shoddy workmanship takes 11 or 12 years to become evident”
Interesting comment. I can only go on my “local experience”, but do many LAA people use engine shops for work on the simpler LAA types? All the ones round me do the work themselves and get it signed off by an appropriately qualified inspector, just like an aircraft build. When I had engine failure about 20 years ago a local chap helped me rebuild the engine at no cost (apart from bits) and it is still going fine as far as I know.
When the LAA got the CAA to remove the overflight restrictions it did an analysis of all the reported accidents covering the last 20 years. The analysis showed that LAA aircraft were marginally less likely to suffer a significant failure than C of A machines. This was accepted by the CAA and the restriction was removed. The report may well still be on the web site.
“The fact is that you only get what you pay for”
You are the professional and I have only been playing at this for just over 25 years, but in my experience if you want a job done well you do it yourself, you invest extra time and care and you know it is done right. Once you remove the understandable commercial time pressure, it is surprising what an amateur with some help from the LAA can do. Even thouse with little time and no experience will find the local LAA enthusiasts can be of assistance.
Rod1
“Oh! perhaps I can help.....................I know of one engine builder well liked by LAA types who builds an engine to a price. Most LAA types are very happy with this as the engine usualy runs for about 500 hours, as most of these people only do 40 hours a year the shoddy workmanship takes 11 or 12 years to become evident”
Interesting comment. I can only go on my “local experience”, but do many LAA people use engine shops for work on the simpler LAA types? All the ones round me do the work themselves and get it signed off by an appropriately qualified inspector, just like an aircraft build. When I had engine failure about 20 years ago a local chap helped me rebuild the engine at no cost (apart from bits) and it is still going fine as far as I know.
When the LAA got the CAA to remove the overflight restrictions it did an analysis of all the reported accidents covering the last 20 years. The analysis showed that LAA aircraft were marginally less likely to suffer a significant failure than C of A machines. This was accepted by the CAA and the restriction was removed. The report may well still be on the web site.
“The fact is that you only get what you pay for”
You are the professional and I have only been playing at this for just over 25 years, but in my experience if you want a job done well you do it yourself, you invest extra time and care and you know it is done right. Once you remove the understandable commercial time pressure, it is surprising what an amateur with some help from the LAA can do. Even thouse with little time and no experience will find the local LAA enthusiasts can be of assistance.
Rod1
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
The problem is who decides whether the amateur knows what he is doing.
Even people who do this for a living for 20 years are still often not to be trusted, and skimp on all kinds of stuff. They probably could do the job right but for some reason choose not to.
The pilot doing his own servicing has an incentive to do it right (it's called "survival" - something which the normal workshop chap doesn't need to worry about because he doesn't fly) but that doesn't mean he knows how to.
I am a pretty competent mechanical engineer, with a well equipped workshop with a lathe, a turret mill, etc, and I do the 50hr checks, and I could do a lot of the stuff which I cannot legally do under pilot maintenance rules, but I would not even dream of rebuilding an engine. It is simple mech stuff but there are all kinds of gotchas which can come and bite you later down the road.
Ultimately the pilot has the right to kill himself, in the same way as if he took up mountain climbing, but this argument falls apart if he can carry passengers.
The other factor is that most people who fly the light/sports types are doing so because they are "funding-limited" and with many there will be a great incentive to skimp on stuff. Human nature....
Even people who do this for a living for 20 years are still often not to be trusted, and skimp on all kinds of stuff. They probably could do the job right but for some reason choose not to.
The pilot doing his own servicing has an incentive to do it right (it's called "survival" - something which the normal workshop chap doesn't need to worry about because he doesn't fly) but that doesn't mean he knows how to.
I am a pretty competent mechanical engineer, with a well equipped workshop with a lathe, a turret mill, etc, and I do the 50hr checks, and I could do a lot of the stuff which I cannot legally do under pilot maintenance rules, but I would not even dream of rebuilding an engine. It is simple mech stuff but there are all kinds of gotchas which can come and bite you later down the road.
Ultimately the pilot has the right to kill himself, in the same way as if he took up mountain climbing, but this argument falls apart if he can carry passengers.
The other factor is that most people who fly the light/sports types are doing so because they are "funding-limited" and with many there will be a great incentive to skimp on stuff. Human nature....
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 2
From: GLASGOW
Yes, this has now developed into an interesting discussion on ,maintenance,and the cost there of. I own two aircraft, both 'vintage' and it has cost me a small fortune. However, that is my choice and decision. I am not an engineer, have little interest in the mechanics, I love to fly, and take the maintenance of my aircraft very seriously. I.E. I pay professionals to do it. I have watched in wonderment at 'tinkerers' doing their own work. They mess about, close the covers, and off, sometimes coughing and spluttering, into the blue yonder.
It obviously gives them some satisfaction, however, I have always been of the view that no price is too much, to ensure your surviveability at 5ooo' is given every mechanical chance. That generally comes at a heavy price. But that is life and very good luck to all the guys that take great pride in doing it themselves - and saving a small fortune on the way.
Pockets due to be emptied again - 50 hour checks coming up.
It obviously gives them some satisfaction, however, I have always been of the view that no price is too much, to ensure your surviveability at 5ooo' is given every mechanical chance. That generally comes at a heavy price. But that is life and very good luck to all the guys that take great pride in doing it themselves - and saving a small fortune on the way. Pockets due to be emptied again - 50 hour checks coming up.
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 2
From: north of barlu
Rod 1
I am not surprized that the LAA vs CAA aircraft accident rate is much the same because I feel that the LAA aircraft are only flown for pleasure and are not likely to venture out in bad weather.
Also due to the lower number of flying hours on LAA types they get more maintenance per flying hour than CAA types, this usualy picks up engine problems before a failure happens.
However I have seen Three LAA Lycomings overhauled and the cheap one was junk that was just about fit to tie a boat too. The other two engines were very good however the price was a lot nearer the normal overhaul price than the "£ few thousand" that you quote for an overhaul.
There is only one way to overhaul an engine.............that is the correct way using the propper tools, parts and manuals. So the only thing that the LAA can save you is the cost of the labour and I say this with my LAA inspectors hat firmly on.
Also due to the lower number of flying hours on LAA types they get more maintenance per flying hour than CAA types, this usualy picks up engine problems before a failure happens.
However I have seen Three LAA Lycomings overhauled and the cheap one was junk that was just about fit to tie a boat too. The other two engines were very good however the price was a lot nearer the normal overhaul price than the "£ few thousand" that you quote for an overhaul.
There is only one way to overhaul an engine.............that is the correct way using the propper tools, parts and manuals. So the only thing that the LAA can save you is the cost of the labour and I say this with my LAA inspectors hat firmly on.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
I think there is a bit of melodrama going on regarding rebuild standards!!
I have just done a top overhaul on our Gipsy 10-2 and carried out most of the work myself. I was quoted over £10k by a very well known Gipsy shop, my final bill came in at under £2000. This was four new pistons, four sets of rings, oil control mod and rings, re conditioning and and honing of four cylinders. I also replaced every single seal, pushrods, oil etc and lapped all the valves and replaced 3 sets of valve guides. Bead blasted and painted all of the cylinders, heads, rocker boxes etc.
I used my engineer to oversee and took the bits that needed engineering to specialist companies on a fixed price cost. All done using the Gipsy overhaul manual and all done to the exact tolerances.
I liked doing the work, I like the fact that it runs like a sewing machine and I like the fact that I know exactly how the work was done and who did it.
I have just done a top overhaul on our Gipsy 10-2 and carried out most of the work myself. I was quoted over £10k by a very well known Gipsy shop, my final bill came in at under £2000. This was four new pistons, four sets of rings, oil control mod and rings, re conditioning and and honing of four cylinders. I also replaced every single seal, pushrods, oil etc and lapped all the valves and replaced 3 sets of valve guides. Bead blasted and painted all of the cylinders, heads, rocker boxes etc.
I used my engineer to oversee and took the bits that needed engineering to specialist companies on a fixed price cost. All done using the Gipsy overhaul manual and all done to the exact tolerances.
I liked doing the work, I like the fact that it runs like a sewing machine and I like the fact that I know exactly how the work was done and who did it.
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 399
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From: suffolk
Whilst I would agree with a lot of the comments on here, it always seems that this type of thread ends up the same way . "Them and us " (permit or C of A ).
This then splits up to the great "being ripped off...or I do my own permit work " debate, and very soon we'll have the " you can't fly IMC/at night brigade".
All very predicable.
But the biggest question to any potential hirer/groupie/owner , is " what do you want from your flying?"
The sad truth, is the person asking what to do (IE poster of original question ) is not in a position to know what he/she wants from their flying because they have not had experience of all the different facets of flying,only time can provide this experience.
Its very much a chicken and egg situation ,further complicated by the fact that peoples choices change as they go through life.
There are no difinutive answers.
I would like to lay one myth to rest though....people building/owning flying LAA aircraft are no longer impoverished wannabes flying marginal aircraft.
By enlarge ,they choose to fly LAA aircraft because they offer high performance that is not easy to find in production aircraft often at quite an outlay.
This then splits up to the great "being ripped off...or I do my own permit work " debate, and very soon we'll have the " you can't fly IMC/at night brigade".
All very predicable.
But the biggest question to any potential hirer/groupie/owner , is " what do you want from your flying?"
The sad truth, is the person asking what to do (IE poster of original question ) is not in a position to know what he/she wants from their flying because they have not had experience of all the different facets of flying,only time can provide this experience.
Its very much a chicken and egg situation ,further complicated by the fact that peoples choices change as they go through life.
There are no difinutive answers.
I would like to lay one myth to rest though....people building/owning flying LAA aircraft are no longer impoverished wannabes flying marginal aircraft.
By enlarge ,they choose to fly LAA aircraft because they offer high performance that is not easy to find in production aircraft often at quite an outlay.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
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From: Midlands
Bose-X has given a typical example of how it works in practice. Note the costs are very similar to my generic comment!
As regards to “tinkering” I am certainly guilty of tinkering. This is the result of 1800 hours of amateur tinkering;
G-KARK
Do remember though that my technical knowledge is very limited compared with A&C, I am strictly an amateur!
Rod1
As regards to “tinkering” I am certainly guilty of tinkering. This is the result of 1800 hours of amateur tinkering;
G-KARK
Do remember though that my technical knowledge is very limited compared with A&C, I am strictly an amateur!
Rod1
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
From: .
I was also at this crossroads a while back... do I buy a share or keep renting.
The flying was much cheaper with owning a share, but the threat of maintenance bills (both planned and unplanned) put me off completely. If something got broken or a new engine was needed, on my salary there's no way I'd have been able to afford it. In the end with my financial circumstances I worked out I was better off renting.
Also I find when renting there's the variety of flying different types. I quite enjoy that freedom.
If my financial circumstances change I might consider it in the future, but not for now.
Smithy
The flying was much cheaper with owning a share, but the threat of maintenance bills (both planned and unplanned) put me off completely. If something got broken or a new engine was needed, on my salary there's no way I'd have been able to afford it. In the end with my financial circumstances I worked out I was better off renting.
Also I find when renting there's the variety of flying different types. I quite enjoy that freedom.
If my financial circumstances change I might consider it in the future, but not for now.
Smithy
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 36
From: France
If you rent you have a limited choice of aircraft and less availability. A group is better from both points of view. I share a Super Cub with my husband, so we both get plenty of flying. It's on a C of A, but we do the 50 hour inspections. It costs about the same as flying a club DR 400 but its a lot more fun and we have an appreciating asset. Yes, really. Ok, we have spent money on it but if we sold it now our flying for the last twenty years would have cost us what we paid in insurance, all the rest is covered by the increase in resale value.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 308
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From: -11`
For me, a big part of the fun is flying somewhere and actually getting to spend some time there. So I bought a share in a smal twin.
If you just want to spend time in the air, it is probably cheaper to rent.
If you just want to spend time in the air, it is probably cheaper to rent.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
Never forget that the total operating costs of the plane have to be recovered somehow - otherwise the owner is going to go bust / pack it in, etc.
So there will never be a free lunch.
Renting is obviously renting..... zero commitment needed on the renter's part, but there is a price to pay which is the highest hourly (marginal) cost of all the options. IOW, the cost of flying one extra hour will be highest if you are renting.
At the opposite end - owning outright or in a group - the cost of flying that extra hour will be just the fuel and any hourly maintenance items (engine fund - £10/hr on a big Lyco, 50hr check fund - say £5/hr) and not a lot else. Consequently, I can fly an extra hour in my TB20 for less than I can rent just about anything that flies faster than my lawn mower.
Now guess which of the two scenarios is going to more encourage pilot currency...
The other end result is a big difference in the incentives one has to behave like a cowboy. Look how many owners, versus renters, do you see at your local airfield starting the engine and before it warms up, driving like crazy across grass/concrete/grass so as to spend the minimum time on the ground, cutting people up in the circuit, etc.
So there will never be a free lunch.
Renting is obviously renting..... zero commitment needed on the renter's part, but there is a price to pay which is the highest hourly (marginal) cost of all the options. IOW, the cost of flying one extra hour will be highest if you are renting.
At the opposite end - owning outright or in a group - the cost of flying that extra hour will be just the fuel and any hourly maintenance items (engine fund - £10/hr on a big Lyco, 50hr check fund - say £5/hr) and not a lot else. Consequently, I can fly an extra hour in my TB20 for less than I can rent just about anything that flies faster than my lawn mower.
Now guess which of the two scenarios is going to more encourage pilot currency...
The other end result is a big difference in the incentives one has to behave like a cowboy. Look how many owners, versus renters, do you see at your local airfield starting the engine and before it warms up, driving like crazy across grass/concrete/grass so as to spend the minimum time on the ground, cutting people up in the circuit, etc.
Last edited by IO540; 14th December 2009 at 15:21.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 649
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From: .
Look how many owners, versus renters, do you see at your local airfield starting the engine and before it warms up, driving like crazy across grass/concrete/grass so as to spend the minimum time on the ground, cutting people up in the circuit, etc.
Smithy
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 2
From: north of barlu
The way that I get pilots to take a little more time on the ground to taxi slowly and walm the engine is to charge from take off to landing.
This avoids the incentive to rush when on the ground
This avoids the incentive to rush when on the ground
