Piper Lance
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: london
Piper Lance
Has anyone had any real-world, 1st hand experience of flying piper lances, both t-tail and non t-tail? Specifically, I'm interested to hear about handling, loading, useful load and speeds from people who have experience on type (as opposed to bar room pundits who "once heard a nasty story from a man in a bar") or fantasist trolls who witter on about mooneys or cirruses.
And before anyone points it out I realise that much of what I ask should be in the POH, but I wanted some 'real world' feedback as opposed to the party line...
And before anyone points it out I realise that much of what I ask should be in the POH, but I wanted some 'real world' feedback as opposed to the party line...
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 865
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From: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
I have flown both types and I found the T-tailed Lance less stable and more difficult to fly in turbulance compounded by the longer fuselage. The turbocharged Lance requires a lot of rudder to keep straight on take-off and I found it easier to line up on the runway and apply the parking brake, set the power correctly, release the brakes and keep straight with large amounts of rudder. I found that to keep tracking the centreline of the runway whilst finetuning the power and trying not to overboost the engine too challenging for an old f**t.
Tony Fallows
Cheshire
Tony Fallows
Cheshire
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Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Ontario, Canada
I agree with DC10's comments (though I have never tried the parking brake method!).
The "T" tail is okay, as long as you remind yourself that you're flying a tiny airliner, not a STOL plane. Forget the short runways. Do not venture out without some dual instruction. If you can't get dual in the "T" tail Lance, experience in a "T" tail Arrow will be quiet similar.
If you're going to master a manual turbo engine, at least take someone along to keep a close eye on the engine guages for you during that takeoff and climb. They are easy to overboost, and expensive when you do!
Pilot DAR
The "T" tail is okay, as long as you remind yourself that you're flying a tiny airliner, not a STOL plane. Forget the short runways. Do not venture out without some dual instruction. If you can't get dual in the "T" tail Lance, experience in a "T" tail Arrow will be quiet similar.
If you're going to master a manual turbo engine, at least take someone along to keep a close eye on the engine guages for you during that takeoff and climb. They are easy to overboost, and expensive when you do!
Pilot DAR
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 283
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From: Somewhere
Havn't had a go at the Lances, but if they are anything like being just a bigger version of the conventional and t-tal Arrows, then the T's are a bucket...
Heavier, worse load, slower and peformed nowhere near as good I thought.
But like I said, I havn't flown the Lances...
Heavier, worse load, slower and peformed nowhere near as good I thought.
But like I said, I havn't flown the Lances...
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 172
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From: California
Flown both T tail and straight tail, turbo and non turbo. Like previously mentioned the turbo T tail can be a handful. It runs hot and takes a lot of attention from takeoff to landing to ensure you don't damage the engine. The T tail is not a good airplane for short runways. Seen a lot of damaged nose gear's. You need to keep the speed up on landing and get the nose on the ground before the T tail stops flying. Problem areas, Wing attachment bolts for corrosion, Exhaust hat, Engine mounts, Nose gear. We usually had access to both a straight tail non-turbo and a T tail Turbo. Without a doubt most of the pilots took the straight tail non turbo if they had a choice. The only reason we would take the T tail was if it was a real long trip 600+, or we needed to climb above weather or the mountains. We also had a Cherokee Six, If I remember correctly it had the same load (750lbs with full fuel, 100gal) and was only 10-15 mph slower than the non-turbo.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,658
Likes: 501
From: Canada
My experiences match Slatches. The T tail is a result of what happens when the marketing weenies overrule the engineers. It took Piper a few years but eventually they admited the error of their ways and put the tail back where it belonged. However the good news is the very poor reputation of the T tail has significantly depressed the value of even quite nice examples of this airframe. While not as pleasant to fly as the low tail models, it is still has OK flying characteristics, and you can't tell the difference in cruise. I would advise staying away from the Turbocharged examples though. It is a poorly designed system
Life's too short for ironing
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Scotland, & Maryland, USA
I've flown Lances for air-to-air photography work, and on long cross countries.
It is a real case of whoever draws the short straw gets to fly it on a photo shoot - lumbering, heavy, awkward, power-less, runway huggers. But, they weren't designed for that job in the first place, they just happen to have a nice big door the photo & video crew love.
On cross country, so long as you have a decent departure runway length, its stable, comfortable and steady. Not going to set a world speed record, but with good instruments and an autopilot, its not bad. I wouldn't get one myself, but did do a trip with a young family on board. Mum & the children had all the back cabin to spread themselves out in and were very comfortable.
It is a real case of whoever draws the short straw gets to fly it on a photo shoot - lumbering, heavy, awkward, power-less, runway huggers. But, they weren't designed for that job in the first place, they just happen to have a nice big door the photo & video crew love.
On cross country, so long as you have a decent departure runway length, its stable, comfortable and steady. Not going to set a world speed record, but with good instruments and an autopilot, its not bad. I wouldn't get one myself, but did do a trip with a young family on board. Mum & the children had all the back cabin to spread themselves out in and were very comfortable.
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 967
Likes: 43
From: 30 West
I have over 500hrs parachute flying, cross country etc in a normally aspirated low tail Lance.
It was probably one of the best compromise aeroplanes I have yet flown.
We operated off 800m of grass at Doncaster, took 5 skydivers to 10,000ft in about the same time as the Cessna 206. When we did formation loads, I would send the Cherokee 6 (260hp) off first, then the 206 and then me. I would coordinate the whole thing and it would keep up no problem.
Will tolerate a lot of weight - we did 4 adults and 3 kids (had 7 seats) from Guernsey to Biarritz and back on one tank - still had IFR reserves when we got back.
Easy to fly, comfortable, reasonably quiet, happy off grass or tarmac. Engine is bulletproof provided you observe simple precautions and do regular oil changes - 4 months/50hrs max.
Would cruise up in the 140's at about 11 gph leaned at 8,000'.
If you want a simple, practical load hauler with good all round performance and space, I wouldn't fault it
It was probably one of the best compromise aeroplanes I have yet flown.
We operated off 800m of grass at Doncaster, took 5 skydivers to 10,000ft in about the same time as the Cessna 206. When we did formation loads, I would send the Cherokee 6 (260hp) off first, then the 206 and then me. I would coordinate the whole thing and it would keep up no problem.
Will tolerate a lot of weight - we did 4 adults and 3 kids (had 7 seats) from Guernsey to Biarritz and back on one tank - still had IFR reserves when we got back.
Easy to fly, comfortable, reasonably quiet, happy off grass or tarmac. Engine is bulletproof provided you observe simple precautions and do regular oil changes - 4 months/50hrs max.
Would cruise up in the 140's at about 11 gph leaned at 8,000'.
If you want a simple, practical load hauler with good all round performance and space, I wouldn't fault it
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 689
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From: Down the airway.
It is a long time ago and in Africa but I used to fly quite a lot in the Lance, T tail and the Cherokee 6.
For the bush flying, the Cherokee 6 was a much more useful aircraft although for charter and for medical work, the Lance was a smoother piece of kit, provided that there was a reasonable amount of runway, operating,as we were, at 5,500ft pa (ish) @ sort of 20c-35c.
It would be interesting if anyone on this forum remembers the stall speeds of the Lance and the Cherokee 6.
For the bush flying, the Cherokee 6 was a much more useful aircraft although for charter and for medical work, the Lance was a smoother piece of kit, provided that there was a reasonable amount of runway, operating,as we were, at 5,500ft pa (ish) @ sort of 20c-35c.
It would be interesting if anyone on this forum remembers the stall speeds of the Lance and the Cherokee 6.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 460
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From: Central London
I bought and flew a low tail 1977 from the Great Lakes to Perth in West Australia
many years ago. The Aussies warned me to not bring a T tail if I wanted to sell it later.
On rough bush strips they were right because you want to get the wheels and prop off asap to stop the grit blasting of the aircraft.
The low tail Lance still sells ok in Oz although they prefer the C206..
Back in the UK I later had a T tail...sexy looking but a pig.
My advice is that its ok for half tanks and six or four reasonable folks and full.
Be warned I fly in Asia where people are not obese
many years ago. The Aussies warned me to not bring a T tail if I wanted to sell it later.
On rough bush strips they were right because you want to get the wheels and prop off asap to stop the grit blasting of the aircraft.
The low tail Lance still sells ok in Oz although they prefer the C206..
Back in the UK I later had a T tail...sexy looking but a pig.
My advice is that its ok for half tanks and six or four reasonable folks and full.
Be warned I fly in Asia where people are not obese
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 283
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From: Somewhere
Der, not sure about the Lance but the 300HP Cherokee Six I've flown stalled at about 61KIAS with the flaps up, and about 55KIAS with the flaps down.
Don't ask me what setting 'down' is because the useless manual only says 'down' - but logic reckons its full (40 degrees).
Don't ask me what setting 'down' is because the useless manual only says 'down' - but logic reckons its full (40 degrees).
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 689
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From: Down the airway.
I have some vague memory that the Lance stalls clean at >70kts. Anyway, comfy as it was, we ancient great barnstormers of the African bush preferred the six - quite frankly (shhh) you could abuse it.
Joined: May 2014
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From: alabama
turbo lance
I bought a new PA32RT300T in 1978 from the factory. The TO issues with the big 300 hp lyc are well documented and handled easily.
1. notch of flaps...line up look at the numbers...hold the bakes...advance mp to about 35 ...a little r rudder and release and watch for rotation speed.....you quickly learn to feel the need for rudder pressure as speed builds. Learn to let it fly itself off and fly with the v speeds.
i flew the bird ( turbo lance) for 2000 hrs and went with a G&N overhaul mostly for peace of mind.
i flew it another 500 hrs and sold it around 96....have had seperation anxiety ever since.
i am almost 70 now with much more horizons behind me than out in front.. i am a 3rd generation flight instructor and Army pilot. I quit logging hrs about 10 years ago but kept flying in a series of planes.... i still missed my lance
Last month I found a litter mate to my old turboII and bought it...No regrets...compare purchase costs with anything comprable in todays market...A 36? Cirrus. Some of the new stuff.....it is a great plane....for serious:......capable...cautious OLD pilots.
1. notch of flaps...line up look at the numbers...hold the bakes...advance mp to about 35 ...a little r rudder and release and watch for rotation speed.....you quickly learn to feel the need for rudder pressure as speed builds. Learn to let it fly itself off and fly with the v speeds.
i flew the bird ( turbo lance) for 2000 hrs and went with a G&N overhaul mostly for peace of mind.
i flew it another 500 hrs and sold it around 96....have had seperation anxiety ever since.
i am almost 70 now with much more horizons behind me than out in front.. i am a 3rd generation flight instructor and Army pilot. I quit logging hrs about 10 years ago but kept flying in a series of planes.... i still missed my lance
Last month I found a litter mate to my old turboII and bought it...No regrets...compare purchase costs with anything comprable in todays market...A 36? Cirrus. Some of the new stuff.....it is a great plane....for serious:......capable...cautious OLD pilots.