CASA to JAR PPL conversion question

[heartbomb]

Just have a quick question.

I have just come back to the UK from Australia with a CASA PPL.

I have 110 dual hours and 19.3 solo.

I had a look at LASORS which says the following:

The holder of a current and valid ICAO PPL(A)* issued by an ICAO Contracting State (not being a JAA Member State), who has flown less than 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, will be required to pass all the JAR theoretical examinations.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but does that mean 100 hours as PIC or do I qualify as not having to take all 7 theory exams again?

Sorry, did a search and couldn't find anything along the same lines in the search results.

Also, if I decide not to do the conversion, I'm aware that I can still fly UK reg aircraft on my Australian licence, provided I get the right privileges on the licence, but whatever hours I do will presumably be logged on my CASA licence and therefore if I do decide to convert, will be counted towards the 100 hrs later?

[englishal]

Doesn't say PIC.

You can fly in the UK as PIC but all the restrictions / privieges of the Aussie licence apply...(i.e if the oz licence says you can only fly a PA28 then that is all you can fly).

I wouldn't log anything on my licence, it is not big enough. I do put them in my logbook though

[heartbomb]

lol that's what I meant about the logging, although I really should work on forming my sentences better.

Is it even worth doing a conversion to a JAA licence if I can just fly on my Aussie licence!?

Also, would I be able to do endorsements on my Aussie licence with FTOs in the UK? I started doing aerobatics in Australia, but didn't get the chance to finish.

I plan on doing my ATPLs through the modular route so I do want to do loads of hour building before I start the CPL aspect of it (I know this is the Private Flying forum just thought I'd put my intentions in here).

Lot's of questions, I know, but I'd rather get as many answers as possible before I do something stupid (like I have done in the past in terms of jumping onto an ATPL course before I was ready).

[BackPacker]

You can fly a G-reg on an AUS license but do keep in mind the restrictions: all the restrictions of your AUS license apply, plus the restrictions imposed by the UK ANO on sucn an implicit validation (from memory: private flight, day VFR only, but LASORS will have the details.)

Endorsements, ratings, qualifications and so on are a touch subject in cases like this. Before you know it you're building a house of cards that may come crumbling down if even the slightest issue goes wrong. But in your specific case: under JAR there is no formal endorsement for aerobatics. Essentially anyone with a shiny new PPL can jump in an aerobatics plane and start doing loops, rolls and so forth. Not that this is recommended practice though - best to get proper tuition.

When I got signed off under club rules to fly solo aeros, my instructor wrote something to that effect in my logbook. It was not a legal requirement, but felt good anyway.

At the end of LASORS you'll find some safety sense leaflets as well, and I think one of them is on aeros.

[heartbomb]

Thanks a lot for the info BackPacker, that was helpful

Yep the day VFR and private flying restrictions are the same on my Aussie licence AFAIK, so I'm glad I'm used to that.

I just want to jump in with an instructor and get used to the airfield (being a freshly qualified Private Pilot!) and build up my confidence in the UK before going off on a solo and using my shiny new PPL, too.

I will have a proper look through LASORS tomorrow.

I'm just itching to get back into the air again.

[englishal]

day VFR only

nowhere does it actually say that in the ANO. I'll stand corrected if you post the relevant link

Interestingly, if your Oz licence allowed to fly "out of sight of the surface" like most ICAO PPL's (e.g FAA) do, then you could do the same in the UK, whereas if you converted to a JAA PPL (or whatever it is these days) you would be limited to "in sight of the surface".

Is aero's and endorsement in Oz? In the UK there is no such endorsement, but if you are flying on the oz licence, then you may well be limited to no aero's unless you can get the endorsement, presumably by an Oz FI.

I wouldn't bother converting unless there is some good reason you need to.

[Mark1234]

Interestingly I'm in the same boat as you - CASA PPL, returned to the UK.

You can fly on the CASA PPL, though in my experience some operators are 'sniffy' about renting to you. Just walk, others are more sensible (depends where you are). You probably want to look at the CAP413 (available online) as for RT stuff, it's a bit different. Also expect to find nav a lot more 'concentrated'.

As goes endorsements. Aeros is an endorsement on the CASA ppl, as is tailwheel, CSU, retract, etc. so, sadly you can't do them here - while you can do what you like here aeros wise, your license limits you as the CASA ppl requires it to be signed off by a CASA ATO... so you're stuffed, unless there's a CASA ATO around these parts (sorry!) That said, I do have an aeros endorsement, but an AUS aeros endo limits you to not less than 3000agl unless you have a low level endorsement. No bad thing, but finding enough space to work around the 3000-5000 mark is a bit tricky here..

Also, I'm not sure about the day VFR only - I have night on my casa, know it will convert, but haven't checked about flying at night. What I have been lead to believe is that you need to have 2 from 3 of the following match: Aircraft reg, locale and license. Thus you can fly a VH reg a/c worldwide on an aus license, or a G-reg in the UK on an aus license, BUT you can't take a G reg onto the continent on an aus license.

Another bummer is that (with my night rating), the requirement to fix position relative to the ground is deleted - I can take off, climb through a hole, spend 4hrs on top of 8/8ths, navigating by VOR/NDB/etc., and descend through the mythical hole at the other end. Sometimes of marginal practical use (holes aren't to be relied upon..), but can be very useful on times. My understanding is that can't be done on a JAA(UK) ppl.

If you're only here for a while, don't convert. If you're here for keeps, doing your BFR (2 yearly flight review) might be a problem...

Also bear in mind that you'll still own your aus PPL after you get a JAA one issued. THAT's worth a bit as the aus PPL is perpetual, whereas the JAA ones last (IIRC) 5 years..

In short... I'd say get thy head into the books and do the conversion. It's probably not that much more work than you should do as a dilligent pilot before flying on your casa ppl, most places I've talked to want a basic handling check flight, and a xc check to make sure you're on top of things.. so why not? ... and I'd hazard a guess (not knowing you, but..) with only 20 odd hours solo, you're not going to just jump into something and fly comfortably in a totally different environment.

[heartbomb]

Wow, thanks Mark. That was a lot of useful info.

I have decided that I do want to do the conversion, it can't harm me and especially, like you said, I only have upto 20 hours solo so it would be a great confidence builder in a new environment. Also, I have moved back to the UK permanently so it might be a good idea.

[BackPacker]

What I have been lead to believe is that you need to have 2 from 3 of the following match: Aircraft reg, locale and license. Thus you can fly a VH reg a/c worldwide on an aus license, or a G-reg in the UK on an aus license, BUT you can't take a G reg onto the continent on an aus license.

You've been mislead, but it's a very common myth, so you're not the only one.

The principle (ICAO) is that if your state of license issue matches the aircraft registration, you can fly worldwide, as long as you abide by the limits of your license, the aircraft and the airspace you're flying in. So you can fly worldwide in a VH-reg on an AUS license, worldwide in a G-reg on a UK license, worldwide in an N-reg on an FAA license and so forth.

But there are a few exceptions to this.

First, within the JAA member states, all JAR-FCL compliant licenses and ratings are considered equal. So if you have a PPL/CPL/ATP/ME/IR which is JAR-FCL compliant then it doesn't matter one bit which state issued it - it's valid (within its limits) to fly on any aircraft registered in any JAA member state. For national stuff like the NPPL or IMC this is not true, and there are a few minor exceptions to this as well. One of the most notable thing is that a UK-issued (JAR-FCL compliant) PPL doesn't allow you to fly VFR-on-top (out of sight of surface) unless you hold an IMC or IR. Other JAA member states do not place the same restriction on their (JAR-FCL compliant) PPLs. (Bring on EASA-FCL as far as I'm concerned!)

Furthermore, the UK ANO stipulates that any foreign, non-JAA but ICAO PPL/CPL/ATPL is allowed to fly a G-reg, but to PPL privileges only. In other words: your CASA license is implicitly validated by the UK CAA. And since the UK CAA considers your license to be valid for flight in a G-reg, this validation works worldwide. This doesn't necessarily carry over to other JAA member states though so the same might not be true on an F-reg, PH-reg or D-reg for instance. And if you decide to take the G-reg to far away places on your CASA license, you might want to bring the quote from the ANO with you in case you are being ramp checked by a grumpy official...

It is complicated stuff. The best source is LASORS and failing that, the ANO.

(And for the record, I stand corrected on the Day VFR limitation - did it from memory and was apparently wrong.)

[Mark1234]

That is interesting. All a bit complicated isn't it! I've poured over lasors for hours..

The one bit I still can't answer is with respect to CSU/Retract, Tailwheel etc. They're endorsed on my Australian license, but differences training here. Whilst LASORS includes provision for my night rating to come across, I can't see how the tailwheel etc., work - reasonably as they're endorsed, I'd expect that to cover the differences training, but reasonable and law aren't always the closest bedfellows...

[BackPacker]

The one bit I still can't answer is with respect to CSU/Retract, Tailwheel etc. They're endorsed on my Australian license, but differences training here. Whilst LASORS includes provision for my night rating to come across, I can't see how the tailwheel etc., work - reasonably as they're endorsed, I'd expect that to cover the differences training, but reasonable and law aren't always the closest bedfellows...

I think the difference is exactly as you describe - a rating vs. an endorsement.

A rating is formally added to license and if you want to transfer a rating from one license to another, you've got a bit of paperwork to do. But an endorsement is simply a sign-off in your logbook by an instructor, after having completed the required training. Nothing written on the license.

So I would assume that if you've got an Australian CSU/retract/tailwheel "endorsement" and the UK CAA also requires an "endorsement" for those items, you're covered. Also, as far as I know, the wording for these kinds of endorsement is always that they need to be issued by a "suitably qualified instructor". Not necessarily a JAA instructor. So if it was a suitable AUS instructor who endorsed you for CSU/retract/tailwheel that instructor would also be suitable in the eyes of the UK CAA. And maybe it works the other way 'round too - simply get a UK instructor to endorse your aerobatics, and you should be OK in Australia too.

However, if any of the authorities would require a "rating" for those items, you're stuck. In your case you will probably need to find an Australian examiner over here who can do the rating exam, and then send some paperwork back and forth to Australia (not to mention money).

Nevertheless, to be absolutely sure, I'd call the UK CAA about this.

[englishal]

The UK CAA automatically validate any rating on the foreign licence, so for example I can fly a multi engine aeroplane which is G reg because on my FAA ticket I have the ME rating. The same is true for endorsements - As I have the FAA "Complex" and "high performance" endorsements, I can fly a high performance trubo charged aeroplane which is G reg. I once wrote to the CAA to confirm this and they did indeed confirm this. If I were you though I'd email them to get it in writing.

The only exception to the rule if the Instrument Rating. They automatically validate it but with the limitation of "outside controlled airspace" only.

However as you're flying on a CASA licence, should you want to add a rating or endorsement to that then this would need to be done by an Ozzie FI/examiner....

[Mark1234]

Aha.. I think we're considering different things, and I should have been more precise with my wording..

My understanding is this: Ratings AND endorsements are things that are 'added to' your license (in aus at least); each require a sticky strip issued by a casa delegate (ATO). Differences training (non existent concept in aus) and sign-offs go in the logbook. I have an SEP rating, night VFR rating, csu/retract endorsement and tailwheel endorsement. All of those required CASA to re-issue my license with the appropriate extra bits printed on it.

I'm with englishal in so much as flying on the aussie license over here. However, I was attempting to address something slightly different: Specifically, what happens when you obtain a JAA UK license using your aussie one: SEP, NVFR, no problem. Rating there, rating here, equivalence OK, over they come. Interestingly while aerobatics is an endorsement there, it only ever gets signed off in the logbook, and doesn't go on the license, and there isn't a sticky strip. No idea why that is..

Now.. CSU/Retract and Tailwheel: endorsement there... differences training here.. uh? Differences training needs to be signed off in the logbook. Well, I think both got signed off by someone as well as the re-issue of my license with the new boxes filled in.. I'd have to check.. but does that mean I need to get some 'uk recognised' person to sign them off as well? all a bit vauge.. bit of a minefield really!

As for the aeros the only requirement here seems to be not to kill myself, so I think I'll just spend some dual time and take it carefully..

I never bothered to get an MEP class rating there 'cos it wouldn't transfer without >100hrs MEP, I'd have had to do a fresh UK MEP. I'd have been in the strange position of being able to fly twins here on an aus license, but not on a JAA one. (wonder if you can just shuffle the deck and pick the license that best suits the situation ) Besides, twins are an (even more) expensive hobby!

P.S. I did email the CAA setting out what the situation was, and how I understood it. 20 days later they reply telling me the same things I'd asked them to confirm, and completely ignoring the bits where I'd asked real questions!

[shashakahn]

ICAO PPL to JAA PPL

Hi
I want to know about the fees of this conversion(ICAO PPL to JAA PPL).
thanks