Garmin 430 experts? Approaches
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Garmin 430 experts? Approaches
Hi,
I'm hoping there's a Garmin expert out there who can help me with the following. On the Garmin 430, I can't find any way of programming in an Arrival or an Approach for an airport which is not the final waypoint on my Flight Plan.
The scenario is this:
I am planning an IFR flight from A to B. The weather at B is forecast to be below minima, so I have two alternates planned, C and D. The weather at C is forecast to be well above minima, and I anticipate no problems getting in there.
On my 430, I enter a Flight Plan from A, to B, to C.
There is no problem now programming a STAR for airport C into the 430 using Select Arrival, nor programming an approach at airport C using Select Approach.
What I can't find any easy way of doing, though, is programming in a STAR for airport B, to take me to the overhead and see if the weather improves. And, if it does improve, how do I now load an approach at airport B? Whenever I choose Select Arrival or Select Approach, it wants to give me arrivals and approaches at airport C, since that's the last point on my Flight Plan.
The Garmin manual doesn't seem to have anything useful to say on the subject of diversions. The only diversion it mentions is done by using the Direct To key after making an approach at the planned airport. But if the route between the planned airport and the diversion is not that straightforward, I would want to program it in on the ground. The best I can find is to save the diversion as a stored Flight Plan, not include the diversion in my active Flight Plan, and then, after deciding to divert, to load the saved flight plan. But surely there must be a better way to do it than this?
Any help would be appreciated.
FFF
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I'm hoping there's a Garmin expert out there who can help me with the following. On the Garmin 430, I can't find any way of programming in an Arrival or an Approach for an airport which is not the final waypoint on my Flight Plan.
The scenario is this:
I am planning an IFR flight from A to B. The weather at B is forecast to be below minima, so I have two alternates planned, C and D. The weather at C is forecast to be well above minima, and I anticipate no problems getting in there.
On my 430, I enter a Flight Plan from A, to B, to C.
There is no problem now programming a STAR for airport C into the 430 using Select Arrival, nor programming an approach at airport C using Select Approach.
What I can't find any easy way of doing, though, is programming in a STAR for airport B, to take me to the overhead and see if the weather improves. And, if it does improve, how do I now load an approach at airport B? Whenever I choose Select Arrival or Select Approach, it wants to give me arrivals and approaches at airport C, since that's the last point on my Flight Plan.
The Garmin manual doesn't seem to have anything useful to say on the subject of diversions. The only diversion it mentions is done by using the Direct To key after making an approach at the planned airport. But if the route between the planned airport and the diversion is not that straightforward, I would want to program it in on the ground. The best I can find is to save the diversion as a stored Flight Plan, not include the diversion in my active Flight Plan, and then, after deciding to divert, to load the saved flight plan. But surely there must be a better way to do it than this?
Any help would be appreciated.
FFF
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If you want to do it this way, then possibly program A > B > C as you've said. As you're approaching B, if you decide it's ok to land, then interupt the sequence by pressing NRST, select B as the Dest and select the appropriate approach?
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You can only have approaches loaded one at a time. It will always be the last airfield on your FPL. That is the way it is supposed to be. You are not supposed to put your alternates into the current FPL!!!
When flying under IFR in the airways, you will either fly to your planned destination and do an approach, if not visual you do the MAP and then climb to the MAP fix. After that you either reactivate the approach or at the point divert. If you are diverting you create a new flight plan with a new destination and then load the required procedures for arrival and approach.
When flying under IFR in the airways, you will either fly to your planned destination and do an approach, if not visual you do the MAP and then climb to the MAP fix. After that you either reactivate the approach or at the point divert. If you are diverting you create a new flight plan with a new destination and then load the required procedures for arrival and approach.
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Don't know much about Garmin panel mounted stuff.
Can you perhaps save a flight plan from B to C with approach at C? That way if on arrival at B, you deside to divert, you just have to load the B-C one rather than busy yourself programming it in?
Can you perhaps save a flight plan from B to C with approach at C? That way if on arrival at B, you deside to divert, you just have to load the B-C one rather than busy yourself programming it in?
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Dunno bout the 430... only used 530's... But given the faffing about trying to put waypoints in without a keypad and how easy it'd be to make a mistake when workload goes up, I'd be inclined to do it the way dublinpilot recomended. Or if u have a box 2, have it standing by and use crossfill?
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1. Enter the FP as A -> B-> C.
2. Hit the PROC key. "Select Approach" is flashing. Hit the ENT key.
3. The popup window lists the approaches for C. Press the inner knob (PUSH CRSR).
4. Twist the outer knob to put the cursor in the APT field.
5. Enter any airport identifier of your choice, supposedly B in this scenario. Press the ENT key.
6. The popup window now lists the approaches for B. Take your pick.
7. If you do it this way, the approach to B will follow WP C in your FP. Delete C and re-insert it after the last WP in the approach procedure.
In other words, there is no problem having an approach for any airport in the FP. It doesn't have to be "your destination" (in fact, the GNS has no concept of "destination", it only knows lists of waypoints).
However, the way I would do it in practice is as follows:
1. Enter the departure airport in the FP.
2. Using PROC, select a SID for your departure airport, if needed.
3. Enter any enroute waypoints up to the final WP before the STAR (if any). Do not enter the destination airport.
4. If using a STAR: Using PROC, select the STAR for your destination airport,. When you hit PROC and Select Arrival the GNS will list arrivals for your departure airport. Not a problem; press the inner knob, scroll to the APT field and select your destination airport, then select a STAR for your destination airport.
5. Using PROC, select an approach for your destination airport, as normal.
6. After the missed approach waypoint, enter any enroute waypoints for your alternate FP.
7. If you want the GNS to pre-select your destination when you hit PROC, do not enter the alternate as the last WP in your FP. If you want the GNS to pre-select your alternate when you hit PROC, enter the alternate as the last WP in your FP. In either case, the STAR and approach you already entered for your destination will remain in your FP.
Doing it using the second way avoids having bogus waypoints showing up in your FP; e.g., A -> SID from A -> {en-route waypoints} -> B -> STAR to B. You did not want the red B in there, since you want the STAR to follow the en-route waypoints.
Caveat: I have not had any use for the approach feature in real life yet, but the above procedures are consistent with the manual and work when using the Garmin trainer application.
2. Hit the PROC key. "Select Approach" is flashing. Hit the ENT key.
3. The popup window lists the approaches for C. Press the inner knob (PUSH CRSR).
4. Twist the outer knob to put the cursor in the APT field.
5. Enter any airport identifier of your choice, supposedly B in this scenario. Press the ENT key.
6. The popup window now lists the approaches for B. Take your pick.
7. If you do it this way, the approach to B will follow WP C in your FP. Delete C and re-insert it after the last WP in the approach procedure.
In other words, there is no problem having an approach for any airport in the FP. It doesn't have to be "your destination" (in fact, the GNS has no concept of "destination", it only knows lists of waypoints).
However, the way I would do it in practice is as follows:
1. Enter the departure airport in the FP.
2. Using PROC, select a SID for your departure airport, if needed.
3. Enter any enroute waypoints up to the final WP before the STAR (if any). Do not enter the destination airport.
4. If using a STAR: Using PROC, select the STAR for your destination airport,. When you hit PROC and Select Arrival the GNS will list arrivals for your departure airport. Not a problem; press the inner knob, scroll to the APT field and select your destination airport, then select a STAR for your destination airport.
5. Using PROC, select an approach for your destination airport, as normal.
6. After the missed approach waypoint, enter any enroute waypoints for your alternate FP.
7. If you want the GNS to pre-select your destination when you hit PROC, do not enter the alternate as the last WP in your FP. If you want the GNS to pre-select your alternate when you hit PROC, enter the alternate as the last WP in your FP. In either case, the STAR and approach you already entered for your destination will remain in your FP.
Doing it using the second way avoids having bogus waypoints showing up in your FP; e.g., A -> SID from A -> {en-route waypoints} -> B -> STAR to B. You did not want the red B in there, since you want the STAR to follow the en-route waypoints.
Caveat: I have not had any use for the approach feature in real life yet, but the above procedures are consistent with the manual and work when using the Garmin trainer application.
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Re: overcomplicating matters: You would of course do the above on the ground before takeoff, to avoid such reprogramming in the air. The GPS is then already set up to fly to your destination, fly the approach, fly the missed approach and then get establish on your alternate FP, with no further reprogramming in the air. Doing it that way moves the workload from the air to the ground; especially important when single pilot IFR!
A battery cart comes in handy for these things, so you can program the GPS and save the FP before you start the engine.
You'd most likely be able to make a pretty good guess about what approach to use before takeoff, right? Of course, you won't know-know...
A battery cart comes in handy for these things, so you can program the GPS and save the FP before you start the engine.
You'd most likely be able to make a pretty good guess about what approach to use before takeoff, right? Of course, you won't know-know...
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KISS. Have the divert plan set in box 2 (if you have that luxury), then crossfill as necessary.
Bugs me a bit that I can't crossfill, my club only keeps one box upgraded so they won't accept crossfills from each other. But oh well, can think of worse problems!
Garmin approaches
If you are going to stay with the existing plan then be ready for the gotcha that happened to me yesterday after a long trip with lots of 'new' waypoints due to 'military activity'. Got to the overhead, finally found out exactly which approach I was to fly (Marseilles) & plugged it in to discover there were too many waypoints and I had to delete a bunch before the approach would load. ....
If you are concerned with having an alternate preloaded up your sleeve then I'd go with dublinpilot & set up a separate plan for your alternate simply starting at 'B' and ending at 'C' ...
If you are concerned with having an alternate preloaded up your sleeve then I'd go with dublinpilot & set up a separate plan for your alternate simply starting at 'B' and ending at 'C' ...
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On the Garmin 430, I can't find any way of programming in an Arrival or an Approach for an airport which is not the final waypoint on my Flight Plan.
Typically, one is going to get a quick routing from ATC, and it may be a DCT.
There is no need to load up a perfect previously Eurocontrol validated route to get to the alternate. (Especially as the diversion may start well before one has reached the destination, possibly a very long time before if one has access to airborne metars/tafs). This "need for a Eurocontrol validated route" may be a grey area from the ATC POV but the bottom line is that once the filed destination is discarded for safety reasons, the next section of the flight is an emergency and ATC's input (beyond a DCT or two) is going to necessarily be "somewhat limited".
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may be a grey area from the ATC POV
As for it being an ´emmergency´ when you divert, I don´t quite agree, as you should have the fuel for it. (Normal DCT-ish route from MAPT to the divert AD)
Now it does happen that crews state "...we need CDA dct IAF for .....unless we will become an emmergency due minimum fuel...".
Sorry for the hijack, get back to discussing the poor HMI on the 430
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As for it being an ´emmergency´ when you divert, I don´t quite agree, as you should have the fuel for it. (Normal DCT-ish route from MAPT to the divert AD)
The original diversion to the alternate isn't an emergency but if there is a problem at the alternate then it definitely becomes one because the rules require X minutes' fuel (45 for FAA IFR, Part 91) and if there is no airport well within (I mean well within the accuracy of your fuel metering procedures) that flying time, you really have a "problem"
One only needs to read some of the commercial forums on here to see that the possibility of the alternate being a problem would actually be a real problem, and the industry gets away with it as well as it does mainly because of Cat 3, and also the great speeds of jets, and airborne weather data... none of which is normally available to GA.
So, the flight to the alternate needs to be taken hugely seriously.
Let' say there is bad weather on that route. Then you have a problem. But, in Europe generally, ATC does not have access to weather radar data so they can't tell you in advance.
Or there could be an active military zone on the DCT route. I've been presented (by French ATC) with a choice of a load of CBs, or the ATCO pressing me hard because "the military were very unhappy". That's what I would call having to keep the decisionmaking firmly in the cockpit. I am sure that you would have handled that differently but not everybody is that good, and not every controller may be aware that you are in a last-chance diversion by the time the flight gets handed over to him.
I agree this is digressing but the original post was almost certainly the result of a concern about having some kind of a validated IFR routing for the alternate.
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Not that I know what the rules regarding fuel planning say about airspace restrictions enroute to the diversion AD, but one should IMHO plan to route around any know, published airspace restrictions like danger, restriction, MIL areas between the destination and diversion. (And getting that info is not really that straight forward all over europe, I know 
)
If one finds oneself with a controller saying "No, you cannot have DCT XXX, active MIL area" then a mayday is really the only option IMHO. Then the sea wil part etc. Belive me, I´ve seen CAT crews with poor NOTAM reading skills ( ) having to take that route in that scenario!
The advent of Lo-cost operators and winter operations in Scandinavia allso uncovered some idiosyncrasies regarding fuel policies the minute the TAFs where a bit "off". The margins are all gone in some cases me thinks
)If one finds oneself with a controller saying "No, you cannot have DCT XXX, active MIL area" then a mayday is really the only option IMHO. Then the sea wil part etc. Belive me, I´ve seen CAT crews with poor NOTAM reading skills (
) having to take that route in that scenario! The advent of Lo-cost operators and winter operations in Scandinavia allso uncovered some idiosyncrasies regarding fuel policies the minute the TAFs where a bit "off". The margins are all gone in some cases me thinks
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but one should IMHO plan to route around any know, published airspace restrictions like danger, restriction, MIL areas between the destination and diversion
That is the official strategy but it is a slightly dumb strategy. Much better to discover that the destination is below limits (or closed for some reason) well before getting there. One can get metars/tafs by satellite phone, or (if not too busy) from ATC. But the route flown to the alternate will be something totally different.
I don't see many pilots getting notams for the dest-alt route, because they can have no idea which point that route will be flown from.
On the original topic, there is little point in loading a STAR into a flight plan which ends somewhere else because one doesn't know which STAR one is going to get on the day, and anyway most of the time the STAR is not flown (even if a STAR name is allocated by ATC).
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I agree with all of the above, but regardless of when you initiate diversion, at MAPT or 100nm+ down range, whatever airspace etc you might find on your intended track to the diversion AD it´s your responsebility to account for that.
Comes down to taking some time to do map study when planning I guess.
Being fast with the DCT function in the Garmin is probably the best tool to have regardless of where you fly in europe.
Comes down to taking some time to do map study when planning I guess.
Being fast with the DCT function in the Garmin is probably the best tool to have regardless of where you fly in europe.
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you might find on your intended track to the diversion AD it´s your responsebility to account for that.
Comes down to taking some time to do map study when planning I guess.
Comes down to taking some time to do map study when planning I guess.
That would imply studying the VFR charts - for an IFR flight intended in CAS. I don't see a 747 pilot carrying VFR charts... that would be about 10-20 charts for the one flight.
Also, for most the world there are no VFR charts at all. The majority of the world is tightly militarised but the military areas are often unpublished. The best one can get are the US ONC/TPC charts which were last updated about 1998, and the DAs on them are way out of date - I know, having had to use them.
The only way to work this is to carry the airway charts which show a little bit of airspace stuff... barely readable underneath the airway maze.
So it must come down to
- a DCT while working with ATC / vectors (the best way in N Europe)
- a DCT while not working with ATC (the only way in some other places)
- a DCT
One normally does plan the alternate as a DCT. This approach is supported at various levels.
I can imagine one obvious exception being where the diversion is over a country which bans overflight and will fire at you
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The only way to work this is to carry the airway charts which show a little bit of airspace stuff... barely readable underneath the airway maze.
MIL areas might not be just for a/c, and it's not possible to ground/stop all of it in any meaningful timeframe in case of a diversion needing the relevant bit of airspace. Off course if it comes down to it, the big sky little bullet principle is clearly better than crashing due to fuel starvation!
All I'm saying it that when planning, checking if a DCT to alternate is probable from a ATM perspective is prudent, and very much so if you are close to minima fuel wise. If it is, no problem, if the chart indicated that it migh be messy, bring a couple of lbs extra for the wife and kids!
