Buying a disused aircraft?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: LKBU
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buying a disused aircraft?
Yesterday, I went to Germany to look at a Socata Rallye I was thinking of buying. Now, I am back with very mixed feelings. The situation is as follows:
(++) Upgraded instrumentation: the "sixpack" arranged the standard modern way (as opposed to original Morane), VOR, ADF, GPS, CHT, EGT, manifold pressure gauge, G meter, etc.
(+) The airframe is structurally sound, no corrosion, the paint is very dull but generally intact, except for a few minor scratches.
(+) All airworthiness-related papers, maintenance records for 40 years and a logbook for 17 years are available and in good order, and I have copies of records for recent years.
(-) Amazingly, the flight manual is missing - but maybe the owner has it at home (he was not even there when I inspected the plane).
(-) I came on the day the plane was to have an annual; the engineer came but did not do the annual because the prop (McCauley) and the engine (O-200) ran out of calendar years for overhaul (but not flight hours). So, the club operating the plane decided to switch it to on-condition maintenance scheme, which will take about 4 weeks at LBA, and then they will do an annual.
(+) In the meantime, I spoke to the engineer. He is a very thorough and professional guy and has a plane of his own. He inspected the plane for the last 5 years, knows it well, and did not have anything bad to say about it EXCEPT...
(--)...confirming my big doubts about the engine. It is an O-200 with 1360 hours since overhaul, with 70-75 compression in all cylinders as of last year, but the plane has been in the air for a total of 6 (yes, six!) hours in the last 5 years, roughly one hour every year.
So, what would you do? My current thoughts are to try talking the owner into something like a lease for, say, 50 flight hours with an option to purchase it thereafter. However, even if he accepts this offer, what can be done to get the plane back into the service with the minimum chance of the engine destroying itself?
(++) Upgraded instrumentation: the "sixpack" arranged the standard modern way (as opposed to original Morane), VOR, ADF, GPS, CHT, EGT, manifold pressure gauge, G meter, etc.
(+) The airframe is structurally sound, no corrosion, the paint is very dull but generally intact, except for a few minor scratches.
(+) All airworthiness-related papers, maintenance records for 40 years and a logbook for 17 years are available and in good order, and I have copies of records for recent years.
(-) Amazingly, the flight manual is missing - but maybe the owner has it at home (he was not even there when I inspected the plane).
(-) I came on the day the plane was to have an annual; the engineer came but did not do the annual because the prop (McCauley) and the engine (O-200) ran out of calendar years for overhaul (but not flight hours). So, the club operating the plane decided to switch it to on-condition maintenance scheme, which will take about 4 weeks at LBA, and then they will do an annual.
(+) In the meantime, I spoke to the engineer. He is a very thorough and professional guy and has a plane of his own. He inspected the plane for the last 5 years, knows it well, and did not have anything bad to say about it EXCEPT...
(--)...confirming my big doubts about the engine. It is an O-200 with 1360 hours since overhaul, with 70-75 compression in all cylinders as of last year, but the plane has been in the air for a total of 6 (yes, six!) hours in the last 5 years, roughly one hour every year.
So, what would you do? My current thoughts are to try talking the owner into something like a lease for, say, 50 flight hours with an option to purchase it thereafter. However, even if he accepts this offer, what can be done to get the plane back into the service with the minimum chance of the engine destroying itself?
Last edited by Ultranomad; 21st Aug 2009 at 16:29.
Pay a totally independent licenced engineer familiar with the type for half a day of his time to go over the whole aeroplane and paperwork and estimate the time, cost and aggro of getting it CofAd again.
G
G
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: LKBU
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Genghis, the current CofA is valid until the end of August, and the engineer I spoke to, although not fully independent of the operator, has no doubts the plane will pass the upcoming annual without bending the law. Of course, I will have an independent inspection, but I am afraid even that may not be enough. The problem is more about exterminating hangar gremlins before they wake up in mid-flight. Or is it?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was showing an aircraft to an engineer who was checking it out for a buyer.
he said something which might be relevant to your purchase.
Are you buying an aircraft or someones headache?
The numbers have to work ie is it so cheap that even with the costs involved to bring it up to form you are still quids in then go ahead.
If your instincts tell you that you are buying someones headache / problem then walk away.
Pace
he said something which might be relevant to your purchase.
Are you buying an aircraft or someones headache?
The numbers have to work ie is it so cheap that even with the costs involved to bring it up to form you are still quids in then go ahead.
If your instincts tell you that you are buying someones headache / problem then walk away.
Pace
6 hours in six years means that none of the systems have been regularly used. You may find things work for a few hours and then start to break down...
Saw this with a Pawnee that had done only a few hours per year, for 20 years, and the whole thing was a near disaster. It ended with a very serious engine fire, in the air, which was due to a blown exhaust, which was due to a mag problem (huge backfire), which was due to lack of use ....
Run a mile....
UV
Saw this with a Pawnee that had done only a few hours per year, for 20 years, and the whole thing was a near disaster. It ended with a very serious engine fire, in the air, which was due to a blown exhaust, which was due to a mag problem (huge backfire), which was due to lack of use ....
Run a mile....
UV
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cilboldentune, Britannia
Posts: 555
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Socata Rallye - I would consider the support for this type of aircraft. I think you'll find it difficult to obtain spares and design authority support from SOCATA (I believe). From my experience of just a couple of these aircraft they are susceptible to structural ex-foliage. IMO your're better to stick to Cessnas & Pipers when buying second-hand.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Anton,
Many of us have lain awake at night pondering a certain a/c we want to buy.
The word want is important; not need to buy. Especially at the moment there are lots of a/c for sale, so be choosey.
I question the wisdom of buying an old Rallye when a more recent Kolliber might be a better economic proposition?
What are you looking for? Low wing, metal, bubble canopy, stol, underpowered and quirky? Hell, there's loadsa planes out there.
Bet I could out fly you in your Rallye Club with a 1969 Cessna F150J.
Don't get all fixated like it was your first girl. Oh, you have haven't you?
Sir George Cayley
Many of us have lain awake at night pondering a certain a/c we want to buy.
The word want is important; not need to buy. Especially at the moment there are lots of a/c for sale, so be choosey.
I question the wisdom of buying an old Rallye when a more recent Kolliber might be a better economic proposition?
What are you looking for? Low wing, metal, bubble canopy, stol, underpowered and quirky? Hell, there's loadsa planes out there.
Bet I could out fly you in your Rallye Club with a 1969 Cessna F150J.
Don't get all fixated like it was your first girl. Oh, you have haven't you?
Sir George Cayley
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Socata Rallye - I would consider the support for this type of aircraft. I think you'll find it difficult to obtain spares and design authority support from SOCATA (I believe).
Socata is alive and well and selling about 60 TBMs a year - that is about $200M a year. More than the combined "GA" revenue of most names in GA. They support the TB piston range (mfg stopped 2002) and I gather they fully support the Rallye range (mfg stopped in the 1980s) with parts.
If Socata lost the TBM sales then it would become yet another largely parts-only operation - like Mooney, piston Piper, and a few others. But I don't see this happening; they have very little competition, and little prospect of any, especially as Epic has just folded.
But in this case I would walk away. If one is going to buy a total knackered dog, one is better buying a dog of a PA28 or a dog of a Cessna, because parts for those are a bit cheaper (especially removed from other wreckage) and one is going to need a lot of parts
The engine will be totally sh*gged and will need an overhaul before anybody should take a risk on getting airborne with it
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O-200
Don't know much specifically about the Socata, but I can tell you a bit about the O-200 Continental.
1300+ hours at 6 or so a year isn't good for them - they develop sticking valves, all kinds of problems and you'll need a top end pretty soon. Use ECI cylinders, set of four installed runs about $5,000 including labor. 1300 hours on the bottom end isn't a problem as long as it is 1300 SMOH and not since TOP overhaul only. Bottom end on an O-200 is generally good for 3K hours, or two top end cycles.
The "ten year" overhaul limit is stated by the lawyers - if the engine is running fine, leave it alone, years don't matter in the real world on this engine.
Fixed pitch prop also doesn't need a "years" service, after some thousand hours they get de-painted, crack checked, reconditioned and re-painted, $300 or so in the US (I am sure it is much more there for the same work.)
Disused airplanes do develop all kinds of strange problems - rusty wheel bearings, stuck gyros, dried out gaskets, hardened brake O-rings, mice and insects taking up residence, I would have to mention that you may actually be getting into a restoration here, which is fine if that is what you want, not so fine if you plan to fly any time soon. (I can relate a story of someone who crawled down the tail cone of a C-150 and came face to face with an occupied wasp nest . . . )
If the price is really, really, really right - and remember you are not allowed to work on this yourself - that's one thing. It really does need to be cheap, because there is very little as expensive as a cheap airplane.
As was asked before - did you marry the first girl you kissed?
Best Regards,
Echo Mike
1300+ hours at 6 or so a year isn't good for them - they develop sticking valves, all kinds of problems and you'll need a top end pretty soon. Use ECI cylinders, set of four installed runs about $5,000 including labor. 1300 hours on the bottom end isn't a problem as long as it is 1300 SMOH and not since TOP overhaul only. Bottom end on an O-200 is generally good for 3K hours, or two top end cycles.
The "ten year" overhaul limit is stated by the lawyers - if the engine is running fine, leave it alone, years don't matter in the real world on this engine.
Fixed pitch prop also doesn't need a "years" service, after some thousand hours they get de-painted, crack checked, reconditioned and re-painted, $300 or so in the US (I am sure it is much more there for the same work.)
Disused airplanes do develop all kinds of strange problems - rusty wheel bearings, stuck gyros, dried out gaskets, hardened brake O-rings, mice and insects taking up residence, I would have to mention that you may actually be getting into a restoration here, which is fine if that is what you want, not so fine if you plan to fly any time soon. (I can relate a story of someone who crawled down the tail cone of a C-150 and came face to face with an occupied wasp nest . . . )
If the price is really, really, really right - and remember you are not allowed to work on this yourself - that's one thing. It really does need to be cheap, because there is very little as expensive as a cheap airplane.
As was asked before - did you marry the first girl you kissed?
Best Regards,
Echo Mike
Pay now (buy a really nice top of market aeroplane) or pay later (in a shop visit per flight for the first 2 years). Same amount of money in the end ....the difference is with the pay later scheme you end up up with a boat load of frustration, many cancelled flights and a tatty looking machine nobody will want. Buy the best airpalane you can find. One that somebody has allready lavished time , money and attention on. In the long run it will be the cheapest airplane you will ever own.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cilboldentune, Britannia
Posts: 555
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Socata is alive and well and selling about 60 TBMs a year - that is about $200M a year. More than the combined "GA" revenue of most names in GA. They support the TB piston range (mfg stopped 2002) and I gather they fully support the Rallye range (mfg stopped in the 1980s) with parts.
Air Touring Ltd enters administration - Business & GA Forum - AirSpace
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you'll find that it's difficult to obtain support and parts for the Rallye from Socata (although they claim otherwise)
But, yeah, the French will always be French, with their perfect polite manners and the "Gallic shrug" and a well polished way of disposing of issues they don't want to attend to
But hey this is aviation. Worse than double glazing and central heating
and the company with the distribution rights for TB range in the UK has gone into administration.
Distribution rights for the TB? There haven't been any TBs to distribute since 2002. And few people bought the TBM via them. Also see my comment below re sole agencies; you cannot have "distribution rights" in the EU. A dealer in the EU has to earn his keep with good customer service (in aviation-speak, by not sh*agging his customers).
In the early 2000s they were running a pricing scam where they would inflate prices over everybody else. This caused all half-savvy owners to buy from other European dealers, or even (covertly, for Socata tried to stop this) via U.S. contacts, from dealers in the USA. By say 2005, most people I knew were buying from one or two European dealers as a routine matter. Sole agencies had been illegal in the EU for many years and eventually Socata had to accept that.
Air Touring's only real claim to fame, apart from their historical connection, was that they were the only UK dealer able to do calibration etc on the famously unreliable KFC225 autopilot, fitted to the GT range. There is one other shop I know of, now. They had considerable expertise on the type (as one ought to expect) but IMHO the reports from customers in recent years were too variable for my liking. They had been in a more or less continuous state of open warfare with the factory in Tarbes over reimbursement of warranty claims, which resulted in the alienation of many customers. More recently, they terminated customer credit accounts (they told me so personally) due to lack of cash and I gather that eventually they were unable to get parts from Tarbes unless they paid Socata cash up front, which made getting parts rather difficult...
Apart from some people losing money in the final weeks through prepayments for work, I don't think their demise affects anybody. The likelihood of them going bust has been an open secret to all those with ears for some/many months.
Back to the topic, I think that engine will be full of corrosion and just changing the cylinders is a very bad idea. A total overhaul is a must.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depends on the price.
If you can get it for market value less the price of an overhauled engine and prop and work up a list of what's wrong with it and what needs replacing plus a contingency fund of 20% and then make an offer.
I've bought and sold aircraft that have been sitting for 15 years , I made money on them sold as-is and the buyers were happy with the prices they paid so it gets back to what it's worth in it's current condition.
Don't expect the owner to get back to you straight away , they have highly inflated opinions on the value when they are selling. Make an offer and he'll probably get back to you a few months later after he's shopped around and nobody else is interested or offering less than you are.
I've waited 12 months to buy some aircraft , just be patient.
If you can get it for market value less the price of an overhauled engine and prop and work up a list of what's wrong with it and what needs replacing plus a contingency fund of 20% and then make an offer.
I've bought and sold aircraft that have been sitting for 15 years , I made money on them sold as-is and the buyers were happy with the prices they paid so it gets back to what it's worth in it's current condition.
Don't expect the owner to get back to you straight away , they have highly inflated opinions on the value when they are selling. Make an offer and he'll probably get back to you a few months later after he's shopped around and nobody else is interested or offering less than you are.
I've waited 12 months to buy some aircraft , just be patient.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with Chimbu,
Most older aircraft have some corrosion especially if they have been parked for a while.
The main issue is the airframe in good condition.
Was it hangered , parked outside or parked under a shelter.
Market price is about $60,000 for a good example of the Rallye 180 , the German seller is asking $26,500 . If you can get it for $15,000 and there's not too much corrosion in the airfame it would be worth looking at.
Here's a Rallye 235 in Spain with half the total time, engine 200 hours since overhaul and looks in good shape for $60,000. You could probably get this one for $50,000 and enjoy it straight away.
Most older aircraft have some corrosion especially if they have been parked for a while.
The main issue is the airframe in good condition.
Was it hangered , parked outside or parked under a shelter.
Market price is about $60,000 for a good example of the Rallye 180 , the German seller is asking $26,500 . If you can get it for $15,000 and there's not too much corrosion in the airfame it would be worth looking at.
Here's a Rallye 235 in Spain with half the total time, engine 200 hours since overhaul and looks in good shape for $60,000. You could probably get this one for $50,000 and enjoy it straight away.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: LKBU
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aseanaero, in my case, the plane was parked in a good hangar, and the seller is asking about $18000. If I go for it (which will not happen unless and until it passes a new annual), I will probably offer less and/or some kind of warranty. So, we are probably thinking on the same wavelength 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anton , you will be lucky to get any sort of warranty at this end of the market. I wouldn't do it if I was selling , as-is where-is.
Grab a torch and mirror or even a good mini camera with a flash and open up every inspection hatch and snap photos to see if there's any visible corrosion, if it's been hangered it shouldn't be too bad.
If you go ahead with the purchase keep the thread going , I'd like to see how you got on with it.
Good luck
---
Grab a torch and mirror or even a good mini camera with a flash and open up every inspection hatch and snap photos to see if there's any visible corrosion, if it's been hangered it shouldn't be too bad.
If you go ahead with the purchase keep the thread going , I'd like to see how you got on with it.
Good luck
---
Last edited by aseanaero; 22nd Aug 2009 at 23:45.
Genghis's Words Worth Framing
Pay a totally independent licenced engineer familiar with the type for half a day of his time to go over the whole aeroplane and paperwork and estimate the time, cost and aggro of getting it CofAd again.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree; I have heard of some "suspicious" prebuy inspections. One does have to pay somebody one trusts and who is familiar with the type, to come over and see. Anton - I am sending you a PM or email with a Socata experienced contact who does this.