Buying a disused aircraft?

[gasax]

In the UK 880s in current use rarely are advertised for more than £12k. That makes the one you're looking at 'not cheap'.

Many years ago (when I was much younger and nothing like so smart!) I bought an aircraft which had flown very little in the last 6 to 8 years - after a full rebuild. It was 'cheap' - roughly 75% of the price of similar aircraft.

The posts above about pay now or later are so so true. After 2 years plus of heavy maintenance it reached the stage where if we went somewhere it would generally get us back. I prefer not to remember how much it cost - let alone the number of favoursinvolved in collecting, recovering it, sourcing spares,getting remote maintenance companies to carry out repairs. Eventually I found a retired engineer (who still had his licences) and he and I sorted it.

If the aircraft was exceptionally cheap it might be worth the huge amount of aggraviation. If it is just a 'little' cheaper, leave it. A much better aircraft will be for sale next week or month.

[KeesM]

I'll pay like 5000,- euro for a plane like that maybe a 1000 more if it has an 406 mhz ELT and mode-s.

The problem with the Rallyes is not engine or prop, it is the airframe itself.
In general used parts are reasonble easy to get with a few exeptions.
New parts are really expensive compared with say Cessna(set of slat rollers 900 euro)
The main spar can be the corrosion problem thing on these planes. Another problem area is the nose gear.
If you buy a Rallye check if it has Socata shocks, there is another brand(I believe it is called Eram), used ones or spare parts for those are nearly impossible to get.

If you really want to buy a Ralley better look around a bit more. Here is a Rallye site with a for sale section: Morane-, Rallye- und Koliber Flugzeuge

Another piece of advice, find somebody how knows how to fly them. Fly Rallyes like a Cessna or Piper and it will be boring and embarrasing. A Rallye is easy to fly but a bit more difficult to fly well.


-Kees (former 880 owner)

[Justiciar]

You must have a burning desire to own one of these aircraft if you want to go this route. Getting an EASA C of A aircraft up to certification and keeping it there is likely to cost you an arm and both legs as well as some other bits of your anatomy

I could name you at least half a dozen good permit aircraft that you could acquire for < £20k and some which would come in at £12 - £15k. All will be cheaper to fly, maintain and insure and fly as fast if not faster than the Socata. True the majority will be tail wheel, but that is not a problem for any pilot of average competence.

[IO540]

There are other reasons for going the CofA route:

- fly everywhere without having to get permission
- fly IFR
- fly at night

Mind you, one pays a significant price for this, in the operating costs.

[A and C]

Justiciar

You are looking at permit types with rose tintted glasses! As a LAA inspector I have to take a more pragmatic view.

The permit system has cheap aircraft, and it has high performance aircraft, but just like the rest of life cheap & high performance don't go together.

I don't particuarly like the aircraft in question but it is far more robust in construction than most permit types and so will give less trouble in a high usage situation.

In terms of robust construction and high performance the only permit aircraft that I have seen that meets the spec is the Vans aircraft but they are not cheap.

[Rod1]

A Jodel with the same engine will match the performance and I do not think anyone would criticize the robustness of the airframe provided it is kept indoors. Such an aircraft is likely to cost £15k, but the running costs will be £1000’s per year less if you are prepared to do the work yourself. You can even rebuild the engine yourself and get it signed off by an appropriately qualified LAA inspector. There is a C65 being built up by some friends of mine at very low cost.

Rod1

[KeesM]

A Jodel with the same engine will match the performance and I do not think anyone would criticize the robustness of the airframe provided it is kept indoors. Such an aircraft is likely to cost £15k, but the running costs will be £1000’s per year less if you are prepared to do the work yourself. You can even rebuild the engine yourself and get it signed off by an appropriately qualified LAA inspector. There is a C65 being built up by some friends of mine at very low cost.

I think you can forget about a Jodel matching a Rallye, speed and climb, yes , but for sure not payload and crosswind capability and probably it matches short field performance.
A Rallye is a fun aircraft for local flights and the occasional long X-country.
Altough it is slow, it will take-off and land on short(est) runways. Its handling is superiour to anything build in the US. Roomy cockpit and great visibility.

-Kees

[Justiciar]

You are looking at permit types with rose tintted glasses! As a LAA inspector I have to take a more pragmatic view.

The permit system has cheap aircraft, and it has high performance aircraft, but just like the rest of life cheap & high performance don't go together.

I don't particuarly like the aircraft in question but it is far more robust in construction than most permit types and so will give less trouble in a high usage situation.

I think a number of points emerge from what you have said:

• Anton_K did not mention the sort of usage he expected, so I am not clear how it can be said that there will be a "high usage" situation.
• The requirement for robustness does I agree go with greater usage, though I suspect that many permit owners would argue against your suggestion that permit aircraft at the price I quoted are not robust enough for typical GA usage.
• what do you mean by "less trouble"? Is there evidence that permit aircraft are inherently less reliable than C o A in the sort of environment we are talking about
• I had never regarded the Ralley as a high performance aircraft, but then I don't know them and will stand to be corrected.
• All the evidence appears to be that getting and keeping this sort of aircraft airworthy will be a hugely expensive exercise and that obtaining a decent aircraft at reasonable cost is far easier the permit route. Whilst I bow to your knowledge of engineering matters I cannot get away from the tales told to me by owners of even well maintained basis aircraft of the cost of maintenance under the EASA Part "M" system.

This is not about having rose tinted glasses. You mention pragmatism, and I think that a pragmatic approach points away from an old low use C of A aircraft which carries a very real risk of costing the buyer more over two to three years than it would have cost him to buy a nearly new RV6 or 7.

All aircraft are a trade off between payload, cross wind capability, speed, rate of climb, short field capability and cost. Anton_K will have to tell us which is important to him.

[Rod1]

This info is straight off the net, so feel free to correct me;

100 hp 880 Empty weight 990lb, MTOW 1695lb 100 hp Jodel 913 / 1650

Jodel Win

Performance
880 Max Cruise 174 KPH Jodel Max Cruise 185 KPH

Jodel Win

Range
880 460 nm Jodel 575 nm

Jodel Win

I assume that the 880 will be better at STOL, but the Jodel will cope with most of the UK strips as it is one of the most common UK permit aircraft.

Rod1

[mikehallam]

As a new PPL back in the 1970's I was lucky to hire the 100 h.p Rallye a few times. IMHO Better short field performance than the DR1050/1

All I can remember are its excellent characteristics, nothing negative:
Slats on the leading edges, wonderful visbility, great supple u/c. Good handling, decent sized fin, plenty of room inside.

Of course this number of years later it all depends on age and condition but at the right price an engine can be sorted if the a/frame passes muster.
A borescope should help tell what it's like in the bores and it's still a production mill too.

Mike Hallam.

[KeesM]

This info is straight off the net, so feel free to correct me;

100 hp 880 Empty weight 990lb, MTOW 1695lb 100 hp Jodel 913 / 1650

Jodel Win

Performance
880 Max Cruise 174 KPH Jodel Max Cruise 185 KPH

Jodel Win

Range
880 460 nm Jodel 575 nm

Jodel Win

I assume that the 880 will be better at STOL, but the Jodel will cope with most of the UK strips as it is one of the most common UK permit aircraft.

Rod1

I'm not going to say one is better than the other. Both are great machines and as somebody else said things are a compromise.
It is just what is important to one. My first plane was a 880 now I've a C150. Which one do I like the most? My head says the Cessna, my heart goes for the 880. And if I could fit in one I would probably buy a Bolkow Junior(I do not fit, I tried).

-Kees

PS. Major differenes between a 880 and C150.
-880 has far better handling,
-880 higher payload,
-880 better STOL and crosswind,
-880 better visibility except for straight down,
-880 wider cabin,
-880 has a stick,
-880 slower and steeper approach,
-880 more fun to fly,
-C150 faster by about 15kts,
-C150 higher climb rate by about 200-300 ft/min(except initial climb),
-C150 can be flown with lazy feet,
-C150 tanks can be dipped,
-C150 cabin is cooler in the summer.