Light aircraft down in Dundee
Joined: Jan 1999
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From: UK.
But the public are happy/relieved anyway.
From the letters column of the Evening Telegraph:
WHAT AN amazingly lucky escape for the pilot of the light aircraft, which crashlanded at Caird Park golf course in Dundee.
It is truly miraculous no one was hurt. He landed so close to one of Dundee’s main arterial routes. If he had hit the road it could have been a disaster.
Equally, Caird Park golf course is a very popular municipal facility, which is usually a hive of activity.
If he had landed a few metres in the other direction, there could have been serious consequences.
The pilot says his landing was part down to good instruction and partly to reading Biggles.
Whatever the reason, he did very well to minimise the impact of what could have been a very serious incident. — Relieved.
From the letters column of the Evening Telegraph:
WHAT AN amazingly lucky escape for the pilot of the light aircraft, which crashlanded at Caird Park golf course in Dundee.
It is truly miraculous no one was hurt. He landed so close to one of Dundee’s main arterial routes. If he had hit the road it could have been a disaster.
Equally, Caird Park golf course is a very popular municipal facility, which is usually a hive of activity.
If he had landed a few metres in the other direction, there could have been serious consequences.
The pilot says his landing was part down to good instruction and partly to reading Biggles.
Whatever the reason, he did very well to minimise the impact of what could have been a very serious incident. — Relieved.
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: .
Well things have come full circle it seems. Now we have idiot journos all over the country writing articles about a non-story - stories about a bunch of pilots on an internet forum criticising another pilot after an accident. 
Front page stuff of course... like some Radge Right Americans slagging off the NHS, some Essex slapper splitting up with her plastic-chested husband, who's been evicted from Big Brother this week, all important stuff in the world of course.
The problem is, PPRuNE seems to be feeding it all. With all the "idiot/should never fly again"-esque posts here, this is giving more and more ammunition to the idiot journos who write these sorts of articles.
Personally, the choice to land in a tree seemed odd, and the capers around Edinburgh seem bizarre to say the least. But I'm not in posession of all the facts. I wasn't in the aircraft, I don't know what happened, I saw nothing. All I can draw from is some, to say the least, sketchy news reports, a bizarre interview with the pilot and the opinions of some anonymous contributors on an internet forum, who claim to be pilots but for all I know might not be pilots at all. On the internet nobody knows you're a dog and all that.
It's natural to gossip when something like this happens. But we don't now all the facts yet. That's what the AAIB are for. So for the meantime let's all calm down and try not to say anything silly. Especially a good idea now that idiot journos are writing whole articles based on comments posted here.
Smithy
Front page stuff of course... like some Radge Right Americans slagging off the NHS, some Essex slapper splitting up with her plastic-chested husband, who's been evicted from Big Brother this week, all important stuff in the world of course.
The problem is, PPRuNE seems to be feeding it all. With all the "idiot/should never fly again"-esque posts here, this is giving more and more ammunition to the idiot journos who write these sorts of articles.
Personally, the choice to land in a tree seemed odd, and the capers around Edinburgh seem bizarre to say the least. But I'm not in posession of all the facts. I wasn't in the aircraft, I don't know what happened, I saw nothing. All I can draw from is some, to say the least, sketchy news reports, a bizarre interview with the pilot and the opinions of some anonymous contributors on an internet forum, who claim to be pilots but for all I know might not be pilots at all. On the internet nobody knows you're a dog and all that.
It's natural to gossip when something like this happens. But we don't now all the facts yet. That's what the AAIB are for. So for the meantime let's all calm down and try not to say anything silly. Especially a good idea now that idiot journos are writing whole articles based on comments posted here.
Smithy
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 280
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From: Scotland
“But there were weird clouds, patches at different heights, and I got permission to fly at 9000 ft while I was going through Edinburgh airspace. The higher the altitude, the more fuel you burn.”
The more I read about the illustrious Vince the less faith I have in his implausible story. The only facts that are true are that he arrived in a tree on a golf course - the rest, as the say, is only speculation.
Last edited by Munnyspinner; 15th August 2009 at 18:51.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 649
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From: .
Must say Munnyspinner, despite the circumstances I enjoyed your "Biggles Flies Undone" story earlier on in the thread. Must say I found it very amusing indeed. 
I do sincerely hope however I never have the misfortune of making a mistake, having a prang and having the PPRuNE populace calling me all the bastards under the sun and telling me I should never fly again because I'm a complete idiot.
And I hope the same never happens to any fellow PPRuNErs. Fly safe all.
I do sincerely hope however I never have the misfortune of making a mistake, having a prang and having the PPRuNE populace calling me all the bastards under the sun and telling me I should never fly again because I'm a complete idiot.
And I hope the same never happens to any fellow PPRuNErs. Fly safe all.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 387
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From: Scotland mainly, rather than at home.
Personally, the choice to land in a tree seemed odd, and the capers around Edinburgh seem bizarre to say the least. But I'm not in posession of all the facts. I wasn't in the aircraft, I don't know what happened, I saw nothing.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 66
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From: dublin, ireland
Hey Vinsce
those that fly CT know they are only capable of a modest but adequate sideslip. Did you increase the rudder throw?
“But there were weird clouds, patches at different heights, and I got permission to fly at 9000 ft while I was going through Edinburgh airspace. The higher the altitude, the more fuel you burn.”
Lenticular clouds could be described a weird I suppose. You meant to say you burn more fuel to attain not maintain altitude didn’t you? I’m actually against a lot of uninformed slagging I have read here. Be assured none of those gentlemen would ever be deemed worthy enough to find out the cold truth in the way the AAIB will.
You did know of ctflyer forum and the tremendous know how available there, particularly the thread I’ve mentioned earlier? Someone under the name xrayspecs had a near identical experience. It’s possible to turn the car-like ignition key while flying left hand on the stick, something I don’t really like but have to put up with.
Oh and BTW must re-read my old Biggles books again J before I get my next top-up lesson from Vincent Vaughan. Did any of the people on the last chance fairway thank you for not landing on their noggins?
If you are reading this, I'm glad your'e alive and extra glad I have a CT if I screw up! (However thinking of trading it for a motor glider.)
those that fly CT know they are only capable of a modest but adequate sideslip. Did you increase the rudder throw?
“But there were weird clouds, patches at different heights, and I got permission to fly at 9000 ft while I was going through Edinburgh airspace. The higher the altitude, the more fuel you burn.”
Lenticular clouds could be described a weird I suppose. You meant to say you burn more fuel to attain not maintain altitude didn’t you? I’m actually against a lot of uninformed slagging I have read here. Be assured none of those gentlemen would ever be deemed worthy enough to find out the cold truth in the way the AAIB will.
You did know of ctflyer forum and the tremendous know how available there, particularly the thread I’ve mentioned earlier? Someone under the name xrayspecs had a near identical experience. It’s possible to turn the car-like ignition key while flying left hand on the stick, something I don’t really like but have to put up with.
Oh and BTW must re-read my old Biggles books again J before I get my next top-up lesson from Vincent Vaughan. Did any of the people on the last chance fairway thank you for not landing on their noggins?
If you are reading this, I'm glad your'e alive and extra glad I have a CT if I screw up! (However thinking of trading it for a motor glider.)
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 280
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From: Scotland
Hhobbit,
It was a cheap shot for which I apologise. I am sure thet Mr H did mean that the it takes more fuel to climb than cruise.
For what its worth , although this thread will rumble on , I think that what needs to be said has probably already been said and that there is little merit in speculating any further as to the cause. Nor do I agree that the flying community are suggesting that Vince be prevented from Flying. No.
There is always something to be learned from an incident like this and for all these low hour students and others who smirk and say “ I’ll never let that happen to me “ then take this opportunity to work out why it could happen to anyone. I don’t know Vince but I am very happy that he is OK and that nobody was hurt. Whatever the cause, it turned out OK for which we should all be grateful.
Yes, I think any pilot who experiences an incident like this needs to reflect and be prepared to accept full responsibility – I’m sure this pilot will. But, don’t give up. Use the opportunity to learn.
When I was doing differences training on my first retractable my instructor let me make an approach without me lowerering the U/C. Three Greens? he questioned as I was doing my fixed gear CRAP check. Oops, a go around was initiated. He later told me that there were two types of Pilot - those that had made a wheels up approach and those that hadn’t - yet! Or words to that effect. Some pilots I know have had all sorts of grief with engine failures and forced landings - non of which have been as a result of their airmanship and I regards them as even better aviators as a result.
It was a cheap shot for which I apologise. I am sure thet Mr H did mean that the it takes more fuel to climb than cruise.
For what its worth , although this thread will rumble on , I think that what needs to be said has probably already been said and that there is little merit in speculating any further as to the cause. Nor do I agree that the flying community are suggesting that Vince be prevented from Flying. No.
There is always something to be learned from an incident like this and for all these low hour students and others who smirk and say “ I’ll never let that happen to me “ then take this opportunity to work out why it could happen to anyone. I don’t know Vince but I am very happy that he is OK and that nobody was hurt. Whatever the cause, it turned out OK for which we should all be grateful.
Yes, I think any pilot who experiences an incident like this needs to reflect and be prepared to accept full responsibility – I’m sure this pilot will. But, don’t give up. Use the opportunity to learn.
When I was doing differences training on my first retractable my instructor let me make an approach without me lowerering the U/C. Three Greens? he questioned as I was doing my fixed gear CRAP check. Oops, a go around was initiated. He later told me that there were two types of Pilot - those that had made a wheels up approach and those that hadn’t - yet! Or words to that effect. Some pilots I know have had all sorts of grief with engine failures and forced landings - non of which have been as a result of their airmanship and I regards them as even better aviators as a result.
Last edited by Munnyspinner; 14th August 2009 at 21:43. Reason: Spelling
Joined: May 2002
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From: Fife.UK.married,2 kids
Didn't read, or perhaps remember, your W E Johns too well Vince. When I read the books Biggles flew Camels, indeed he was somewhat disparaging of SE5s; called them glasshouses as I recall ( a reference to the enclosed canopies on some of the later airframes).
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 121
Likes: 16
From: No. Cal, USA
I'm also a CTSW owner. After seeing that the pilot was ok, my first reaction was "what a waste of a nice aircraft". I really don't understand the 70 knots reference. Anyone properly checked out on a CT should be able to fly a 50 knot zero flaps glide with no effort at all. A full-stall landing with 40 degrees of flaps will get you down to less than 35 knots and stop you in a correspondingly short distance.
The usable fuel is an issue. My POH says that the last 6 liters are unusable which seems to contradict his experience. OTOH, I find the aircraft far more enjoyable to fly with at least half the tank full and wouldn't think of flying with less than 5 gallons remaining.
In any case, the accident continues to demonstrate the crew survivability of the carbon fiber airframe.
The usable fuel is an issue. My POH says that the last 6 liters are unusable which seems to contradict his experience. OTOH, I find the aircraft far more enjoyable to fly with at least half the tank full and wouldn't think of flying with less than 5 gallons remaining.
In any case, the accident continues to demonstrate the crew survivability of the carbon fiber airframe.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 82
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From: ESSEX
just to show that its not just pilots can make mistakes, see the video below
FAA Suspends 2 Workers in Hudson Plane Helicopter Crash
FAA Suspends 2 Workers in Hudson Plane Helicopter Crash
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 21
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From: chelmsford
Hey guys, it's me!
I am Vince Hagedorn the pilot. If I have learned one thing it is how difficult it is to get into a site like this and respond.
I am grateful for (most) of your messages, but some seem to be based on newspaper reports rather than fact.
I did not run out of fuel. Nor wasthere any danger I would (see bit about flight plan below) The engine stopped with about 5-7 litres showing in the port visible fuel gauge. I was under the direction of Dundee Tower and had been instructed to go where I was going (to a "long Final" along the beach. I do not want to enter into any discussion about this as I might have been given a wrong direction, or misunderstood the direction I was given and it will be for the AAIB to work that out.
When the engine stopped I immediately called my Mayday. River estuary was beyond reach across sand dunes and a road. Did 180 deg turn towards a crop field (noted on way past) for a soft landing, but not enough height for me to reach it and an undershoot meant a small housing estate to hit. Called negative cropfield, assessed a playing field to the East but children and goal posts ruled that out. Had a golf course to my left (west) so called attempting golf course but when I got closer the fairways were crammed with people and full of bunkers anyway. It was competition day I learned later. That left the tree as that way no-one would get hurt.
For the pilots amongst you I pulled a hard right sideslip, then just before impact pulled the stick back hard and the CT went into the tree belly first, which is why I walked away.
After impact the momentum of the engine pulled the aircraft flatter, which was nice as otherwise I would have been balancing on my right ear!
A veteran aviator tells me that the pancake manoeuvre was part of the ops manual for Burma operations - over almost exclusively trees. My Bridge partner told me last night (he was a Mosquito navigator in WW2) that pancake landings were quite common at that time, but were harder to walk away from at 400mph!
As for flight planning, I did this with Captain ************ (pilot and instructor), Head of Flight Ops at Barrow in Furness from where I departed and with the Airport Manager. We all discussed the fuel issue and, although in perfect conditions I had a 50% margin on the direct flight to Kinloss, we discussed Dundee as a fuel diversion. I was told that they were welcoming to pilots of small aircraft and have no reason to think otherwise.
On leaving Barrow the tower told me to contact Scottish Radar which -when in range - I did. There was layer on layer of broken cloud over the hills so I climbed to 7,000 feet and called for a transit at that height through Edinburgh airspace. The cloud heads got higher (though I still had good ground visibility so I asked for 9,000 and then 10,000 - all granted though at 10,000 the controller called me at fl10. Yes I enjoyed that - I've never had a "flight level" before!!
On the descent North of Edinburgh, I checked everything (D####### - height is safety) and found 10 litres of fuel (50 mins at 12 litres an hour which is the long term average for November Hotel). I ran out of MARGIN for Kinloss, NOT FUEL. The Press did not explain this in their reports.
If I had endangered myself and others by running out of fuel I would be far more angry with myself than any of you could possibly be with me!
It is absolutely true about Biggles being the inspiration for the manouvre. Deepak, my former instructor was also a key part of the landing. And this is where pilots understand but others not. From the moment I called the MayDay I was following training. It was not a good option to try a re-start - I still do not know why the engine stopped in the first place - because the terrain was not very friendly but all else was as taught.
There was nothing heroic and no time to think of any consequences. Far from revelling in the attention i have a cremation on monday and a seriously troubled daughter to visit in Findhorn (next to Kinloss).
I should be very happy to enter into any discussion about all this and am keen to complete my report to the AAIB when the inspector returns on Monday. Thanks for reading this. Vince
I am grateful for (most) of your messages, but some seem to be based on newspaper reports rather than fact.
I did not run out of fuel. Nor wasthere any danger I would (see bit about flight plan below) The engine stopped with about 5-7 litres showing in the port visible fuel gauge. I was under the direction of Dundee Tower and had been instructed to go where I was going (to a "long Final" along the beach. I do not want to enter into any discussion about this as I might have been given a wrong direction, or misunderstood the direction I was given and it will be for the AAIB to work that out.
When the engine stopped I immediately called my Mayday. River estuary was beyond reach across sand dunes and a road. Did 180 deg turn towards a crop field (noted on way past) for a soft landing, but not enough height for me to reach it and an undershoot meant a small housing estate to hit. Called negative cropfield, assessed a playing field to the East but children and goal posts ruled that out. Had a golf course to my left (west) so called attempting golf course but when I got closer the fairways were crammed with people and full of bunkers anyway. It was competition day I learned later. That left the tree as that way no-one would get hurt.
For the pilots amongst you I pulled a hard right sideslip, then just before impact pulled the stick back hard and the CT went into the tree belly first, which is why I walked away.
After impact the momentum of the engine pulled the aircraft flatter, which was nice as otherwise I would have been balancing on my right ear!
A veteran aviator tells me that the pancake manoeuvre was part of the ops manual for Burma operations - over almost exclusively trees. My Bridge partner told me last night (he was a Mosquito navigator in WW2) that pancake landings were quite common at that time, but were harder to walk away from at 400mph!
As for flight planning, I did this with Captain ************ (pilot and instructor), Head of Flight Ops at Barrow in Furness from where I departed and with the Airport Manager. We all discussed the fuel issue and, although in perfect conditions I had a 50% margin on the direct flight to Kinloss, we discussed Dundee as a fuel diversion. I was told that they were welcoming to pilots of small aircraft and have no reason to think otherwise.
On leaving Barrow the tower told me to contact Scottish Radar which -when in range - I did. There was layer on layer of broken cloud over the hills so I climbed to 7,000 feet and called for a transit at that height through Edinburgh airspace. The cloud heads got higher (though I still had good ground visibility so I asked for 9,000 and then 10,000 - all granted though at 10,000 the controller called me at fl10. Yes I enjoyed that - I've never had a "flight level" before!!
On the descent North of Edinburgh, I checked everything (D####### - height is safety) and found 10 litres of fuel (50 mins at 12 litres an hour which is the long term average for November Hotel). I ran out of MARGIN for Kinloss, NOT FUEL. The Press did not explain this in their reports.
If I had endangered myself and others by running out of fuel I would be far more angry with myself than any of you could possibly be with me!
It is absolutely true about Biggles being the inspiration for the manouvre. Deepak, my former instructor was also a key part of the landing. And this is where pilots understand but others not. From the moment I called the MayDay I was following training. It was not a good option to try a re-start - I still do not know why the engine stopped in the first place - because the terrain was not very friendly but all else was as taught.
There was nothing heroic and no time to think of any consequences. Far from revelling in the attention i have a cremation on monday and a seriously troubled daughter to visit in Findhorn (next to Kinloss).
I should be very happy to enter into any discussion about all this and am keen to complete my report to the AAIB when the inspector returns on Monday. Thanks for reading this. Vince
Last edited by avgh; 15th August 2009 at 08:01. Reason: shold remove name
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 21
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From: chelmsford
I am happy to accept all criticism - based on fact. I have just posted a resume of what happened. Vince
thank you for your advice. Most kind! Vince
Thank you. that really IS kind and thoughtful. I wonder how many happy typers would like themselves to be exposed like this on the basis of news reports? Since beingtold by a reporter of the existence of this site it took until this morning to get to access it. Vince
flight time to dundee was about 2 hours - all recorded on instruments still in November Hotel. Other comments do not seem to fit what happened. Vince
I tried to get a bath in Ninewells to relieve the rib ache (caused by the landing, not the humour on this thread cos I hadn't found it!). they told me baths were not an option because of Health and Safety! Vince
I spent an hour on the branch and saw no squirrels. Apparently they were as shocked by my landing as some of you! Would they have been red squirrels there or have the greys invaded scotland as far as dundee? Vince
Munnyspinner. Please read the synopsis of the flight. You have made some thoughtful points, but based on some misinformation. My direct route as plotted on the chart agreed eaxctly with the Satnav. I had permission to cross Edinburgh CTA under the watchful eye of Scottish Radar. I did not run out of fuel, I ran out of margin for Kinloss (because of the cloud dodging and altitude I guess). I went for Dundee as agreed with the much more experience pilots who checked my flight plan. I had plenty of fuel visible in the port sight glass just before my turn, and when gliding. Will have to await the enquiry for explanation of engine cut. For the other guy's interest there is no mixture control on this type of engine.
The satnav will reveal all and I have no fear of that!
Vince
Sorry - never saw the Nunnery so cannot claim credit for that one! Vince
thank you for your advice. Most kind! Vince
Thank you. that really IS kind and thoughtful. I wonder how many happy typers would like themselves to be exposed like this on the basis of news reports? Since beingtold by a reporter of the existence of this site it took until this morning to get to access it. Vince
flight time to dundee was about 2 hours - all recorded on instruments still in November Hotel. Other comments do not seem to fit what happened. Vince
I tried to get a bath in Ninewells to relieve the rib ache (caused by the landing, not the humour on this thread cos I hadn't found it!). they told me baths were not an option because of Health and Safety! Vince
I spent an hour on the branch and saw no squirrels. Apparently they were as shocked by my landing as some of you! Would they have been red squirrels there or have the greys invaded scotland as far as dundee? Vince
Munnyspinner. Please read the synopsis of the flight. You have made some thoughtful points, but based on some misinformation. My direct route as plotted on the chart agreed eaxctly with the Satnav. I had permission to cross Edinburgh CTA under the watchful eye of Scottish Radar. I did not run out of fuel, I ran out of margin for Kinloss (because of the cloud dodging and altitude I guess). I went for Dundee as agreed with the much more experience pilots who checked my flight plan. I had plenty of fuel visible in the port sight glass just before my turn, and when gliding. Will have to await the enquiry for explanation of engine cut. For the other guy's interest there is no mixture control on this type of engine.
The satnav will reveal all and I have no fear of that!
Vince
Sorry - never saw the Nunnery so cannot claim credit for that one! Vince
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 21
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From: chelmsford
is this right?
Thi is my first mesage board - what happens is:
Is it right that the views of people who are not in posession of the facts and do not always hold any qualifications themselves (I know that some of you do of course) should be treated by the Press as those of Professional aviators?
I find it all rather saddening really, whilst welcoming the comments of those who have taken the trouble to study facts. Vince
- Pilot gives Press Interview
- Press prints stuff - mostly accurate, but with errors (such as running out of fuel - their interpretation for stopping at Dundee for fuel when I ran out of MARGIN for Kinloss but had 50 minutes fuel)
- Message board writers pick up the story and add their own speculation - they do not even interview the pilot!
- THEN - and this is the bad bit - the Press begin to quote "A professional Pilots Message Board" and start to magnify the story beyond all recognition.
Is it right that the views of people who are not in posession of the facts and do not always hold any qualifications themselves (I know that some of you do of course) should be treated by the Press as those of Professional aviators?
I find it all rather saddening really, whilst welcoming the comments of those who have taken the trouble to study facts. Vince
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 21
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From: chelmsford
thanks cpt smithy
Captain Smithy. My point exactly - thank you for standing out from the crowd. Until I was able to find out how to access the site this morning I was being hung out to dry by a - no doubt well meaning- bunch of guys who were now feeding the Press with even more misinformation than they started with. This is not good for aviation. Neither is landing in a tree, but lets leave the Inspector to work out the blame.
I broke an Aeroplane, no-one on the ground died, I pancaked following Capt W E Johns' instructions. Wasn't part of my pilots course at all. Did any of you pilots learn how to do a "pancake" landing in a tree?
A bit you did not know is that I have been flying various forms of model aircraft, including Radio Control, for many years so I guess I have some extra knowledge of the principles of flight you will not have known about.
And best of all I am OK too!
Before making any further comments, a constructive dialogue might start from my synopsis of the flight. All that will check out in due course.
Otherwise aviation suffers, not just me. Vince
I broke an Aeroplane, no-one on the ground died, I pancaked following Capt W E Johns' instructions. Wasn't part of my pilots course at all. Did any of you pilots learn how to do a "pancake" landing in a tree?
A bit you did not know is that I have been flying various forms of model aircraft, including Radio Control, for many years so I guess I have some extra knowledge of the principles of flight you will not have known about.
And best of all I am OK too!
Before making any further comments, a constructive dialogue might start from my synopsis of the flight. All that will check out in due course.
Otherwise aviation suffers, not just me. Vince
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,160
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From: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Hello Vince.......welcome to the rumour network of pprune.. despite all the slating you have taken I guess each and every one of us are glad to see you fit and well after your experiance.....the main thing is that lessons will be learnt by not only you but by others as is always the case when these little incidents happen.....
despite all the slating you have taken I guess each and every one of us are glad to see you fit and well after your experiance.....the main thing is that lessons will be learnt by not only you but by others as is always the case when these little incidents happen.....
Joined: Aug 2009
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From: chelmsford
hhobbit
Hi - just read your comments. I am preparing to get another CT from Oliver, Beautiful a/c.
As for the sideslip i suppose it would have looked a bit odd from the ground but it was a question of attitude mostly - a big, quick yank on the stick to the right with a big kick on the rudderbar to the left surprised it a bit and the backward pull on the stick just threw the plane at the tree bottom first.
It worked is all I can say. My Mosquito friend said last night that few survived pancakes in the trees over Europe because of the greater speed, and with jets it is all but forgotten.
Look forward to a new CT - cnnot wait to get airborne again. Took 6 hours to get from Dundee to Kings Cross by train! Yuk!! Vince
As for the sideslip i suppose it would have looked a bit odd from the ground but it was a question of attitude mostly - a big, quick yank on the stick to the right with a big kick on the rudderbar to the left surprised it a bit and the backward pull on the stick just threw the plane at the tree bottom first.
It worked is all I can say. My Mosquito friend said last night that few survived pancakes in the trees over Europe because of the greater speed, and with jets it is all but forgotten.
Look forward to a new CT - cnnot wait to get airborne again. Took 6 hours to get from Dundee to Kings Cross by train! Yuk!! Vince