AFPEX problems
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AFPEX problems
A couple of weeks ago I applied for an AFPEX account but did not hear anything back so I e-mailed NATS and got the following reply.
I thought I would submit it on here in case anyone else was waiting for their application to be processed.
Dear Mr ....
I can confirm that we have received your application and are dealing with it. Unfortunately, we are currently experiencing licensing issues with the system as the interest in having an account has far outweighed what we were expecting. We have contacted the manufacturers who are testing the update to allow us to add more users. In the meantime our fax service is available on 01489 612793.
Kind regards,
Fred Hunt
NATS AFPEx Team
I can confirm that we have received your application and are dealing with it. Unfortunately, we are currently experiencing licensing issues with the system as the interest in having an account has far outweighed what we were expecting. We have contacted the manufacturers who are testing the update to allow us to add more users. In the meantime our fax service is available on 01489 612793.
Kind regards,
Fred Hunt
NATS AFPEx Team
AFPEx - A Flight Planning Exasperation
Typical NATS really. In the interests of profit they get rid of the expertise and tallents of those staff at Heathrow Flight Plans and replace them with a computer system which is not fit for purpose. Then they realise that that the computer system will cost them more money than they thought because they didn't realise they needed user licences for each user (=licenced pilot, airline, handling agent etc) to register. Then they have to pay out redundancy and employ more of the staff at a higher grade to cover the support tasks no longer carried out. What is achieved? Well why don't you send a faxed flight plan to the computer systems guys at Swanwick to help them develop some of the expertise that Heathrow had
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not fit for purpose.....
Sorry Dan, but I have to stick my head above the parapet here and say that as far as I'm concerned it very definately is fit for purpose.
It allows me to file flight plans, both IFR and VFR from the comfort of my own home at a time that suits me - in exactly the same way as the old fax line did. I have templates for regular routes which can be tweaked as necessary in terms of POB or frame for the day, just like the old paper / fax system.
Admittedly, addressing VFR plans can be cumbersome, but other than that I have no real issues with the system.
I feel for the guys and gals at Heathrow FBU who always gave a sterling service, but we need to start looking more at how we can do the same things with the same level of safety and with less associated costs. Maybe in this instance it may take a little while for the 'less associated cost' to be realised.
It allows me to file flight plans, both IFR and VFR from the comfort of my own home at a time that suits me - in exactly the same way as the old fax line did. I have templates for regular routes which can be tweaked as necessary in terms of POB or frame for the day, just like the old paper / fax system.
Admittedly, addressing VFR plans can be cumbersome, but other than that I have no real issues with the system.
I feel for the guys and gals at Heathrow FBU who always gave a sterling service, but we need to start looking more at how we can do the same things with the same level of safety and with less associated costs. Maybe in this instance it may take a little while for the 'less associated cost' to be realised.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: london
Posts: 676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the NATS AFPEX website is a spledid idea in principle, just a shame that if you have a Mac that has any processor other than one made by INTEL, you can't use their site. Some incompatability with the JAVA download or some-such bolleaux.
Simply amazing that pornographers the world over can get really the most sophisticated interactive smut to run on any old machine, and yet NATS have tried to reinvent the wheel.
When I rang NATS and eventually found all this out (having spent £300 on various unsuccessful software updates, downloads, et al, courtesy of a selection of folks at their IT department - the bill is on it's way, guys...) I asked whether they had looked at the French website, OLIVIA, before launching theirs, the answer came back "what's OLIVIA?".
This is, of course, all a trojan horse for pay-per-flightplan, which NATS plans to roll out in 2011.
Simply amazing that pornographers the world over can get really the most sophisticated interactive smut to run on any old machine, and yet NATS have tried to reinvent the wheel.
When I rang NATS and eventually found all this out (having spent £300 on various unsuccessful software updates, downloads, et al, courtesy of a selection of folks at their IT department - the bill is on it's way, guys...) I asked whether they had looked at the French website, OLIVIA, before launching theirs, the answer came back "what's OLIVIA?".
This is, of course, all a trojan horse for pay-per-flightplan, which NATS plans to roll out in 2011.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is, of course, all a trojan horse for pay-per-flightplan, which NATS plans to roll out in 2011
Homebriefing.com will file an FP for under 4 euros, and they advise/confirm stuff like acceptance/rejection and slots via SMS and email, and you can call them for changes etc - all included in the price.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: suffolk
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its Crap, It took me ages to get a flightplan through 2 weeks ago which resulted in a 3 hour delayed departure, which in turn resulted in running out of daylight over high ground.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: london
Posts: 676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540
I don't have a reference for the 2011 pay-per-file which I can quote, as this was put to me with some vehemnce by an ex-NATS employee, who I don't care to name. This does fit with my perception of the world, however, so I'll be pleasantly surprised if this doesn't happen...
I don't have a reference for the 2011 pay-per-file which I can quote, as this was put to me with some vehemnce by an ex-NATS employee, who I don't care to name. This does fit with my perception of the world, however, so I'll be pleasantly surprised if this doesn't happen...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't have a reference for the 2011 pay-per-file which I can quote, as this was put to me with some vehemnce by an ex-NATS employee, who I don't care to name. This does fit with my perception of the world, however, so I'll be pleasantly surprised if this doesn't happen...
But if it does happen, it will merely play into the hands of any State owned tom dick or harry outfit outside the UK who has an AFTN terminal and wants to start up a flight plan filing service. It takes all of a few days' work to knock up a website with a flight plan form on it, Paypal/Worldpay prepay accounts, and off you go.
AFAIK a number of years ago the airlines stopped using UK facilities for flight plan filing and have been doing it via flight support services which inject the FPs into the AFTN via terminals in the USA. This resulted in the Heathrow FBU filing almost entirely just GA VFR flight plans; thousands per month so it is no wonder they were eventually closed.
Outside the UK, we don't have the privatised ATC / airport structures with crazy artificial accounting separation and there are lots and lots of establishments who can offer a commercial service - like homebriefing.com which is an offshoot of Vienna ATC.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is basically a "struggle" between the UK (where the service is privatised and under pressure to terminate all services not making money - unless mandated by ICAO) and the rest of the world (where this stuff is not generally privatised).
Every airport tower must provide a flight plan filing service, under ICAO. How they do it is their business (within the UK, the man in the tower will generally type it into AFPEx, or one the older AFTN terminals) but a pilot must be able to just hand in a handwritten ICAO flight plan and have it processed.
It doesn't have to be done for free, however.
Every airport tower must provide a flight plan filing service, under ICAO. How they do it is their business (within the UK, the man in the tower will generally type it into AFPEx, or one the older AFTN terminals) but a pilot must be able to just hand in a handwritten ICAO flight plan and have it processed.
It doesn't have to be done for free, however.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Upon advice from NATS themselves, we applied as an ATC unit for an account, just in case our primary systems fell apart - we'd otherwise rely on the fax machine, which is cumbersome, has a running cost (whereas Afpex is free) & restrictive.
That was six weeks ago and we still haven't heard anything at all from them, perhaps we should employ some pigeons as a precautionary measure.
That was six weeks ago and we still haven't heard anything at all from them, perhaps we should employ some pigeons as a precautionary measure.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I visited them recently with my AOPA UK hat on to find out what's going on.
Because you are being given direct access into the AFTN and your own personal AFTN account they have to vet applicants for legitimacy before you get access. This includes checking that the license details you submitted tally with your personal details.
This is where the Data Protection jobsworths come in. NATS is a public/private partnership owned in part by the Airline Group. It is a commercial organisation carrying out some State functions on behalf of CAA, which is an Agency of the DfT. CAA are the holders of the licensing data and unlike the US it is not published to the public at large. CAA were trying to charge NATS 15 quid for every verification enquiry so now someone from NATS drives from Swanwick to the Belgrano with a list to do the verification process. It gets done when it is possible to spare someone from Ops and of course in the summer staff availability goes down (ATCO's are entitled to holidays too
) Hence the delays.
Demand has been higher than expected, which is perhaps is understandable.
God:- "Moses! I have a commandment for you!"
Moses:- "What's it going to cost me?"
God:- "They're free"
Moses:- "In that case I'll take ten."
Improvements to the login process are anticipated in October. It's run by a small team based at Swanwick who are committed and keen for it to succeed.
Re "pay per flight". As stated above NATS is a commercial organisation. It is in large part funded by the airlines, who are a major shareholder and we all know the airlines are going through a very rough patch at the moment so they are cutting costs wherever they can. It also suffers from a fixed cost base and variable income. It takes a long time to train ATCOs and you can't just lay them off when demand drops and expect them to come running back to be re-hired when things pick up.
I've been asked several times what services NATS could provide over and above the basic ICAO mandated ones that pilots would be willing to pay for. My answer has been that they will struggle to come up with something worth doing. If smaller and more nimble organisations are not able to make money out of PPL's then NATS is going to find it impossible.
NATS has in the past sought to extend charging for services that it purports to be purely GA related, such as ATSOCAS. CAA has refused, which is to their credit. When NATS got their license it was on the basis that they would provide all of the services then being provided. Since that time they have been able to make significant savings by using technology to reduce headcount. Introducing technology to allow the same services to be provided at lower cost does not amount to introducing new services.
WRT Homebriefing, Austrocontrol uses the same software that used to be used by NATS AIS before the current website. NATS did not however implement the FPL filing part of it.
Mike
AOPA UK
Because you are being given direct access into the AFTN and your own personal AFTN account they have to vet applicants for legitimacy before you get access. This includes checking that the license details you submitted tally with your personal details.
This is where the Data Protection jobsworths come in. NATS is a public/private partnership owned in part by the Airline Group. It is a commercial organisation carrying out some State functions on behalf of CAA, which is an Agency of the DfT. CAA are the holders of the licensing data and unlike the US it is not published to the public at large. CAA were trying to charge NATS 15 quid for every verification enquiry so now someone from NATS drives from Swanwick to the Belgrano with a list to do the verification process. It gets done when it is possible to spare someone from Ops and of course in the summer staff availability goes down (ATCO's are entitled to holidays too
) Hence the delays.Demand has been higher than expected, which is perhaps is understandable.
God:- "Moses! I have a commandment for you!"
Moses:- "What's it going to cost me?"
God:- "They're free"
Moses:- "In that case I'll take ten."
Improvements to the login process are anticipated in October. It's run by a small team based at Swanwick who are committed and keen for it to succeed.
Re "pay per flight". As stated above NATS is a commercial organisation. It is in large part funded by the airlines, who are a major shareholder and we all know the airlines are going through a very rough patch at the moment so they are cutting costs wherever they can. It also suffers from a fixed cost base and variable income. It takes a long time to train ATCOs and you can't just lay them off when demand drops and expect them to come running back to be re-hired when things pick up.
I've been asked several times what services NATS could provide over and above the basic ICAO mandated ones that pilots would be willing to pay for. My answer has been that they will struggle to come up with something worth doing. If smaller and more nimble organisations are not able to make money out of PPL's then NATS is going to find it impossible.
NATS has in the past sought to extend charging for services that it purports to be purely GA related, such as ATSOCAS. CAA has refused, which is to their credit. When NATS got their license it was on the basis that they would provide all of the services then being provided. Since that time they have been able to make significant savings by using technology to reduce headcount. Introducing technology to allow the same services to be provided at lower cost does not amount to introducing new services.
WRT Homebriefing, Austrocontrol uses the same software that used to be used by NATS AIS before the current website. NATS did not however implement the FPL filing part of it.
Mike
AOPA UK
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NATS did not however implement the FPL filing part of it.
Pilots had been asking that question for years.
Is it because they did not want to implement a billing system, to pay for the SMS transmission? Or was it concerns over vandalism?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Abroad
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike's explanation is very interesting, but it does not address the point, which is they run out of licences for their software (assuming it's a bespoke system, why didn't they just bought it outright?)
Well, to be fair, data protection laws are there for a very good reason. It's hardly their problem if the various UK governments in the last couple decades have decided to go flogging off the entire State infrastructure.
Plus, as has been hinted, there appear to have been plenty of other solutions with more of a chance to actually work. Both OLIVIA and Homebriefing have been mentioned, and I could add simply picking up the phone and speaking to any ARO in France or Spain works a charm too, even if you're flying nowhere near their respective countries.
(assuming it's a bespoke system, why didn't they just bought it outright?)
This is where the Data Protection jobsworths come in
Plus, as has been hinted, there appear to have been plenty of other solutions with more of a chance to actually work. Both OLIVIA and Homebriefing have been mentioned, and I could add simply picking up the phone and speaking to any ARO in France or Spain works a charm too, even if you're flying nowhere near their respective countries.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
NATS did not however implement the FPL filing part of it.
I wonder why not?
Pilots had been asking that question for years.
NATS did not however implement the FPL filing part of it.
I wonder why not?
Pilots had been asking that question for years.
AES required UK AIS to manage their own Oracle Database whereas the new UK system uses the European AIS database where each State maintains only its own data and the cost of maintaining data pertaining to non-participants is shared out across the participating States. Also I gather that the FPL bit of AES requires human input before the FPL is released on to AFTN whereas the Comsoft application used by AFPEx requires no human intervention by NATS and is therefore much cheaper to implement and potential failure points are reduced.
I also suspect that the very poor standard of VFR FPL's in the UK (not of course by you dear reader) might have had a bearing. Because VFR plans were simply faxed to the destination and did not enter the AFTN the non-conformities to ICAO standards did not cause a problem. Those who have been filing IFR through CFMU will be well aware of the need for higher standards of production.
Worth mentioning that the inability to use 4 letter a/d designators in a route (much derided by the proponents of Olivia) is an absolute requirement for any system for submitting FPL as 4 letter designators are not valid in an ICAO FPL route.
There are a number of solutions out there and it's a commercial decision as to which is chosen. EAD, by Frequentis for Eurocontrol is what the UK chose as their AIS solution and I know of no reason to argue with that decision.
Mike
AOPA UK
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I got a phone call today from a very pleasant lady at NATS who explained that priority was been given to those applicants who had no permanant AFTN address and that those applicants such as us (airfields) were being put to the back of the queue, indeed existing airfields who had primary AFTN connections thorugh the normal channels were having existing Afpex facilities withdrawn to enable more private pilots etc to be allocated the facility.
I strongly suspect that when the licensing issue is sorted, airfields like us who want to use it as a back up facilities will probably have to pay for it whereas, hopefully, those who want it for the purpose it was designed for, will get it for nothing.
I strongly suspect that when the licensing issue is sorted, airfields like us who want to use it as a back up facilities will probably have to pay for it whereas, hopefully, those who want it for the purpose it was designed for, will get it for nothing.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: GUILDFORD
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AFPEX
What a system!!!
First of all it took over 6 months, yes 6 months to get my application in on line and it was only resolved because I new an employee there who took in by hand my hard copy of the application.
Then it is a nightmare to log on using Java. Last Saturday it took 9 minutes to download a blank flight plan and even that took 3 attempts as the website 'timed out' each time. total half an hour. Surely it would be easier to break in to the Bank of England than to file a flight plan. All I wanted to do was to fly a microlight, with a passenger from the uk to LFAT.
When one could fax a FP to Heathrow it was heaven but not now it is a nightmare before you set off. These FPs cannot be all that important as in the recent past Farnborough could not estabish that my flight plans was in the system, once in the air and requesting activation. Fearing a return to base they replied 'no worries we will send a departure notice to LFAT. so all was well.
How civilised and helpful, unlike SWANWICK. where my HELP phone call went un-answered after 4 attemps despite a so called 7days 24 hr service.
What did I do? got on to the OLIVIA French FP filing site. Job done in just 7 minutes. This why all UK services are all going down the PAN.
In the UK it seems 'Just how difficult can we make it' whilst in France the attitude is 'How can we Help?
First of all it took over 6 months, yes 6 months to get my application in on line and it was only resolved because I new an employee there who took in by hand my hard copy of the application.
Then it is a nightmare to log on using Java. Last Saturday it took 9 minutes to download a blank flight plan and even that took 3 attempts as the website 'timed out' each time. total half an hour. Surely it would be easier to break in to the Bank of England than to file a flight plan. All I wanted to do was to fly a microlight, with a passenger from the uk to LFAT.
When one could fax a FP to Heathrow it was heaven but not now it is a nightmare before you set off. These FPs cannot be all that important as in the recent past Farnborough could not estabish that my flight plans was in the system, once in the air and requesting activation. Fearing a return to base they replied 'no worries we will send a departure notice to LFAT. so all was well.
How civilised and helpful, unlike SWANWICK. where my HELP phone call went un-answered after 4 attemps despite a so called 7days 24 hr service.
What did I do? got on to the OLIVIA French FP filing site. Job done in just 7 minutes. This why all UK services are all going down the PAN.
In the UK it seems 'Just how difficult can we make it' whilst in France the attitude is 'How can we Help?
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: suffolk
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I said in my earlier post ..its crap!
"Activate via London info" (assuming you're lucky enough to get it filed).
On climb out from home base " Stand by"(london info)
Southend "stand by"
North Kent coast "Stand by"
Dover " London info have you forgotten me?".."no we'll get back to you as soon as possible"
Listen to more dribble from every man and his dog explaining what colour socks the're wearing that day.
Mid Channel..."Stand by"
Coasting in...."pass your message"..."well I wanted to open my flightplan to Calais, but I am too busy to talk to you now as I'm actually on finals"
"Activate via London info" (assuming you're lucky enough to get it filed).
On climb out from home base " Stand by"(london info)
Southend "stand by"
North Kent coast "Stand by"
Dover " London info have you forgotten me?".."no we'll get back to you as soon as possible"
Listen to more dribble from every man and his dog explaining what colour socks the're wearing that day.
Mid Channel..."Stand by"
Coasting in...."pass your message"..."well I wanted to open my flightplan to Calais, but I am too busy to talk to you now as I'm actually on finals"
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: England
Age: 77
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear all,
Details below of a meeting to be held at West London Aero Club, White Waltham Aerodrome starting at 1930h on Tuesday 11th August.
Food will be available for purchase from 1800h until approx. 1915h.
On 28 January 2009 National Air Traffic Services (NATS) introduced AFPEX (Assisted Flight Planning Exchange), an on-line flight planning system. All flight planning in the UK is now operated through the NATS Air Traffic Centre at Swanwick
Tony Purton (PPL) will give a user's experience of AFPEX.
Kevin Loy and Jed Aldridge (NATS) will provide information on the use of AFPEX.
Presentations will be assisted by use of the NATS AFPEX on line training document and a real time on line link to the AFPEX site, to enable demonstration of filing a flight plan
TO BE FOLLOWED BY QUESTIONS AND DISCUSSION ON AFPEX.
ALL WELCOME
Details below of a meeting to be held at West London Aero Club, White Waltham Aerodrome starting at 1930h on Tuesday 11th August.
Food will be available for purchase from 1800h until approx. 1915h.
AFPEX "The joys of compulsory DIY On Line Flight Planning"
On 28 January 2009 National Air Traffic Services (NATS) introduced AFPEX (Assisted Flight Planning Exchange), an on-line flight planning system. All flight planning in the UK is now operated through the NATS Air Traffic Centre at Swanwick
Tony Purton (PPL) will give a user's experience of AFPEX.
Kevin Loy and Jed Aldridge (NATS) will provide information on the use of AFPEX.
Presentations will be assisted by use of the NATS AFPEX on line training document and a real time on line link to the AFPEX site, to enable demonstration of filing a flight plan
TO BE FOLLOWED BY QUESTIONS AND DISCUSSION ON AFPEX.
ALL WELCOME
Last edited by Chris Royle; 4th Aug 2009 at 10:58. Reason: Edited to spell Tuesday correctly!