Advice for landings
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 555
Likes: 0
From: Cilboldentune, Britannia
We all learn in different ways; I'm the sort of person that needs a mental picture of what's required others do things by rote (eg:air-speeds). I remember seeing a little diagram in the old Birch & Bramston books showing a side view of the path an aircraft should make: flare, hold-off and touch down. On my next lesson pulled off some great landings. Good-luck!
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
From: Woking
As everyone says - you'll get there, and lots of us had exactly the same problems.
A while back I had a chance to fly a 152 for the first time in 17 years. I worried about maybe needing a checkout, but in the end just got in. It was so easy to fly - I was amazed. It had seemed so difficult when I was at the "20 hours and no solo" stage. "Everything but the last five feet", I used to say to instructors " - why can't I do it?" . But then I could. Soon enough they'd say "land on the numbers", and in a 152 you can almost say "which part of the numbers?" I just know you'll manage it too.
I hesitate to suggest this in such illustrious company, but you might try a change of instructor. That doesn't mean your current one is bad, but the slightly different approach of a different person in the right seat may help. It's certainly how I got over my fear of stalling in whatever lesson that is.
Bernie
A while back I had a chance to fly a 152 for the first time in 17 years. I worried about maybe needing a checkout, but in the end just got in. It was so easy to fly - I was amazed. It had seemed so difficult when I was at the "20 hours and no solo" stage. "Everything but the last five feet", I used to say to instructors " - why can't I do it?" . But then I could. Soon enough they'd say "land on the numbers", and in a 152 you can almost say "which part of the numbers?" I just know you'll manage it too.
I hesitate to suggest this in such illustrious company, but you might try a change of instructor. That doesn't mean your current one is bad, but the slightly different approach of a different person in the right seat may help. It's certainly how I got over my fear of stalling in whatever lesson that is.
Bernie
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Your proberly missing the vital phrase.
First of all get the instructor to show you the landing picture.
As you fly down the approach make sure your trimmed.
As the runway appears to starts moving towards you pitch the nose up to the straight and level attitude.
As the runway sides start coming up towards you pitch to the previously demonstrated picture while putting the power to idle. Waggle the rudder pedals so the instructor thinks your actually doing something with them.
Hold the attitude. Now this is the important bit.
In a loud clear voice say "get down you whore"
Once the aircraft has done as its told hold the same picture by increasing back pressure then lower the nose gently to the runway while continuing to pretend you know what your doing with the rudder.
Jobs a goodun.
PS ladys can substitue bastard instead of whore
PPS this method works up to 10 tons in my experence.
First of all get the instructor to show you the landing picture.
As you fly down the approach make sure your trimmed.
As the runway appears to starts moving towards you pitch the nose up to the straight and level attitude.
As the runway sides start coming up towards you pitch to the previously demonstrated picture while putting the power to idle. Waggle the rudder pedals so the instructor thinks your actually doing something with them.
Hold the attitude. Now this is the important bit.
In a loud clear voice say "get down you whore"
Once the aircraft has done as its told hold the same picture by increasing back pressure then lower the nose gently to the runway while continuing to pretend you know what your doing with the rudder.
Jobs a goodun.
PS ladys can substitue bastard instead of whore
PPS this method works up to 10 tons in my experence.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: ISK
Glad I posted
I laughed out loud at
maybe thats what I am doing wrong 
I have taken the points on board and the phrase ground rush is exactly what it is...
More lessons many one or two on Monday. I loved the tomahawk the field of vision is amazing compared to the 152 (in my opinion) and will go back to them when I complete.
Revising the circuit brief all weekend.... but if i get solo i can assure you all
"get down you whore" will be uttered after my cleared to land call....
XV
In a loud clear voice say "get down you whore"
I have taken the points on board and the phrase ground rush is exactly what it is...
More lessons many one or two on Monday. I loved the tomahawk the field of vision is amazing compared to the 152 (in my opinion) and will go back to them when I complete.
Revising the circuit brief all weekend.... but if i get solo i can assure you all
"get down you whore" will be uttered after my cleared to land call....
XV
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Its actually a cunning instructor trick.
Students tend to forget that they have a set of pedals. Just the simple fact they waggle them gets them remembering that there is something down there and low and behold they start pointing it down the runway.
Students tend to forget that they have a set of pedals. Just the simple fact they waggle them gets them remembering that there is something down there and low and behold they start pointing it down the runway.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,246
Likes: 7
From: EU
I agree that
A couple of years ago I was doing a check ride at Lanseria Airport in SA and the Tower had not given me clearance to land despite my timely arrival at the threshold! I realised this just as I was in the flare and held off. It was very 'educational' flying a few feet off the deck, just above the stall, trying to get a word in with the Tower. 
But on a serious note, it taught me that visual frame of reference for landing. Worth trying.
The advice to hold the plane off the ground is the best advice here.
But on a serious note, it taught me that visual frame of reference for landing. Worth trying.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,704
Likes: 1
From: Who can say?
There are three rules to making a good landing.
Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are.
Don't panic, and persevere. The art of landing is like riding a bicycle. You can't really be taught it. All an insturctor can do is to demonstrate, talk you through and (on occasion) help with a light hand on the flare. The rest is up to you, and sooner or later, like a kid learning to get "balance" on a bike, you'll get it. Thereafter, you'll never lose it again.
The main thing is to make sure you're set up for the approach in good time, trimmed, and stable with sensible power set - depending on conditions, around 15-1700 RPM will do it with two stages of flap and speed 65 kts. Thereafter, make only small corrections to attitude, heading or power, and make them early rather than having to make large corrections to get back on the GP or Rwy centreline or speed.
It's far, far easier to make a good landing from a good approach than it is off a poor approach. When nicely established, ensure checks are complete and get in your call "G-XXXX final". And then sit there, just making small corrections to keep the picture looking as it should. Don't react to the aircraft - instead, make IT do what YOU want.
Close the throttle all the way crossing the threshhold, marginally before you start the flare, and always remember the flare is not a single pull of the control column to check sink - it's a steady, almost continuous, slow rearward movement of the control column. If you run out of flying airspeed too high, just a small burst of power will slow the rate of sink.
Good luck!
Unfortunately, nobody knows what they are.
Don't panic, and persevere. The art of landing is like riding a bicycle. You can't really be taught it. All an insturctor can do is to demonstrate, talk you through and (on occasion) help with a light hand on the flare. The rest is up to you, and sooner or later, like a kid learning to get "balance" on a bike, you'll get it. Thereafter, you'll never lose it again.
The main thing is to make sure you're set up for the approach in good time, trimmed, and stable with sensible power set - depending on conditions, around 15-1700 RPM will do it with two stages of flap and speed 65 kts. Thereafter, make only small corrections to attitude, heading or power, and make them early rather than having to make large corrections to get back on the GP or Rwy centreline or speed.
It's far, far easier to make a good landing from a good approach than it is off a poor approach. When nicely established, ensure checks are complete and get in your call "G-XXXX final". And then sit there, just making small corrections to keep the picture looking as it should. Don't react to the aircraft - instead, make IT do what YOU want.
Close the throttle all the way crossing the threshhold, marginally before you start the flare, and always remember the flare is not a single pull of the control column to check sink - it's a steady, almost continuous, slow rearward movement of the control column. If you run out of flying airspeed too high, just a small burst of power will slow the rate of sink.
Good luck!
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,089
Likes: 2,948
From: Ontario, Canada
Close the throttle all the way crossing the threshhold, marginally before you start the flare, and always remember the flare is not a single pull of the control column to check sink - it's a steady, almost continuous, slow rearward movement of the control column. If you run out of flying airspeed too high, just a small burst of power will slow the rate of sink.
Once you begin your flare in a tricycle aircraft (assuming no major or sudden changes in power) the motion of the pitch control will always be a pull, or slight pause between pulls. Never a relaxing or push (unless you encountered a sudden incredible gust of wind). This pull will continue as appropriate to maintaining the desired pitch, until there is no elevator effect at all, by which point, you are safely rolled out on the runway. Therefore, I would expect to see on most types (Tomahawks excepted) the controls being held full back until you've cleared the runway.
Couple this, with a careful effort to prevent the aircraft touching the runway as long as you are able. This will result in a stall warning system actuating. That's a good thing. Your objective is to enter a stall inches above the runway. You'll never have recover the stall, because the aircraft will have settled on very nicely first.
When you practice stalls at altitude it's to gain experience in handling the aircraft at very low speeds, recognizing the appraoch to stall, and learning how and when to recover. Of course, only a fool would deliberatey enter a stall tens of feet off the ground, but entering inches off a runway with length ahead of you is perfectly fine.
Stalls happen at an angle of attack, not so much a speed, though there is a relationship. Stalls will happen, independant of power setting, thus we practice power off and power on stalls. For the purpose of this discussion, let's consider the power on stall only to be a partial power stall, we'll stay away from full power stall...
So why only practice power off stalls at the runway? Partial power stalls work well there too. As a pilot once told me, "we practice flying for hundreds of hours, we pracitce flaring for only seconds". You can get more pratice in the flare by stretching it out. Certainly, runway length is a consideration, so assure you have enough. While nicely established in the flare, add a little power, so as to have affected the characteristics of the aircraft. You will lengthen your opportunity to learn how the aircraft handles in the flare. As you progress, you will find that the aircraft can be landed at higher power settings quite nicely.
So what's the point of landing with power? You will learn the techniques of gentle landings, because you've stretched the flare to just the right point. You will know what the plane will feel like should you decide to delay your touchdown, so as to be further down the runway (maybe because you saw a soft looking spot in the grass at the last second). You will also work toward confidence, should in be necessary to go around from the flare, or after just having touched at a stall (wildlife ran across the runway in front of you).
As a pilot of a powered airplane, it is necessary to perfect landing without power ('cause you're going to have to one day...), but it's also your responsibility to learn to use all of the aircraft's capabilities in combination to maitain safe flight in a variety of circumstances. Some of those circumstances involve your intended landing point needing to change at the very last second. These techniques also work should you choose to want to "feel" the landing surface with the wheels, without committing to land. But that's a technique for another discussion, and only with qualified mentoring.
Pilot DAR
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
From: Suffolk
Have you tried looking at a few cockpit videos of people landing a Cessna 150, 152 or 172? It might help if you ask your instructor to fly a couple of touch and goes with you taking a video through the windscreen from start of base leg to climb out after the touch down. If you can get audio as well he or she could describe what is going on e.g. “I’ve increase engine revs by 200 to reduce rate of decent, holding nose pointing just right of runway into cross wind . . .etc” This may help you get the picture out the windscreen and the actions needed to keep it looking right.
While it will be tough on your self esteem you could ask the instructor to video you making a couple of landings as well for replay in the lesson debriefing and so you can get a better idea of what you are actually doing. In the high workload situation of trying to learn to land it can be difficult to take in everything that’s going on.
I saw a documentary recently where the Red Arrows were using this technique of video analysis of performance as part of their training for new pilots learning display routines. In the documentary it looked to be very effective but harsh for the pilots concerned since their every minor mistake was being chewed over and widely exposed to everyone involved in the display team.
Most of all relax and enjoy flying. You are not in a race for who can go solo in the shortest time and you have one hell of a way to go yet before you will beat the longest time. The key is to solo when you are ready for it, this will come with practice and training.
While it will be tough on your self esteem you could ask the instructor to video you making a couple of landings as well for replay in the lesson debriefing and so you can get a better idea of what you are actually doing. In the high workload situation of trying to learn to land it can be difficult to take in everything that’s going on.
I saw a documentary recently where the Red Arrows were using this technique of video analysis of performance as part of their training for new pilots learning display routines. In the documentary it looked to be very effective but harsh for the pilots concerned since their every minor mistake was being chewed over and widely exposed to everyone involved in the display team.
Most of all relax and enjoy flying. You are not in a race for who can go solo in the shortest time and you have one hell of a way to go yet before you will beat the longest time. The key is to solo when you are ready for it, this will come with practice and training.
Last edited by Saab Dastard; 24th August 2009 at 10:19.
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: UK
Close the throttle all the way crossing the threshhold...
Cheers
Last edited by SirLaughalot; 23rd August 2009 at 19:44.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,704
Likes: 1
From: Who can say?
Nope.
The only time I teach cutting the power off entirely when certain of making the runway and before the threshhold is on a glide approach.
In a C152 (the aircraft under discussion) for a normal approach I teach taking all power off when crossing the threshhold, immediately before flaring.
In a high-tailed aircraft, of course, the technique is different due to less ground effect on the stabiliser and prop wash.
The only time I teach cutting the power off entirely when certain of making the runway and before the threshhold is on a glide approach.
In a C152 (the aircraft under discussion) for a normal approach I teach taking all power off when crossing the threshhold, immediately before flaring.
In a high-tailed aircraft, of course, the technique is different due to less ground effect on the stabiliser and prop wash.
Joined: May 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
Your proberly missing the vital phrase.
First of all get the instructor to show you the landing picture.
As you fly down the approach make sure your trimmed.
As the runway appears to starts moving towards you pitch the nose up to the straight and level attitude.
As the runway sides start coming up towards you pitch to the previously demonstrated picture while putting the power to idle. Waggle the rudder pedals so the instructor thinks your actually doing something with them.
Hold the attitude. Now this is the important bit.
In a loud clear voice say "get down you whore"
Once the aircraft has done as its told hold the same picture by increasing back pressure then lower the nose gently to the runway while continuing to pretend you know what your doing with the rudder.
Jobs a goodun.
PS ladys can substitue bastard instead of whore
PPS this method works up to 10 tons in my experence.
First of all get the instructor to show you the landing picture.
As you fly down the approach make sure your trimmed.
As the runway appears to starts moving towards you pitch the nose up to the straight and level attitude.
As the runway sides start coming up towards you pitch to the previously demonstrated picture while putting the power to idle. Waggle the rudder pedals so the instructor thinks your actually doing something with them.
Hold the attitude. Now this is the important bit.
In a loud clear voice say "get down you whore"
Once the aircraft has done as its told hold the same picture by increasing back pressure then lower the nose gently to the runway while continuing to pretend you know what your doing with the rudder.
Jobs a goodun.
PS ladys can substitue bastard instead of whore
PPS this method works up to 10 tons in my experence.
ing bitch arr Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 36
From: France
Do you use the xwind landing technique
"don't drift you ing bitch arr it get down you whore"
"don't drift you ing bitch arr it get down you whore"