Advice for landings
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Advice for landings
Help,
Just had a flight with the CFI that has made me think about packing in my PPL, although he thinks I can still do it.
The problem is the aged old one, how do you land the thing (c152)!
I was on tomahawks but then the school closed (dam recession) then moved airfields and aircraft. I have 23 hours and been told i should be solo by now, although about 7 hours are ex 12,13 over the different aircraft and airfields.
Any tips....
Just had a flight with the CFI that has made me think about packing in my PPL, although he thinks I can still do it.
The problem is the aged old one, how do you land the thing (c152)!
I was on tomahawks but then the school closed (dam recession) then moved airfields and aircraft. I have 23 hours and been told i should be solo by now, although about 7 hours are ex 12,13 over the different aircraft and airfields.
Any tips....
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I suspect that the best advice would be - relax. It may be that you're becoming so worried about getting it wrong that it's becoming a self fulfilling prophesy. Landing is the hardest phase of flight but it 's not that hard otherwise I wouldn't be able to do it - once you crack it you'll wonder why you hadn't done it that way before. Many years ago when I first started flying (in gliders) I just didn't understand the flare; I couldn't work out where to look, what to do and when. After a number of dreadful barely controlled crashes I flew with yet another instructor who gave me a few tips, renewed my then fast evaporating confidence and one day it worked. It continued to work and has done on allsorts of different aircraft types and sizes ever since ( allright - with the occasional lapse).
What is the problem at the moment? Is it the approach or the flare or what. A bit more info might elicit a few tips from people
What is the problem at the moment? Is it the approach or the flare or what. A bit more info might elicit a few tips from people
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Snap,
I had the exact same problem, I logged my first 16hrs in a PA-38, before the school went bust and I moved onto the C152, it took me hours to get used to judging the flare and hold off.
If I'm honest It just clicked after around 15 hours in the 152, I went on to complete the PPL in 51 hours 35 mins, and 2 hours 25 for my skills test.
Dont let it get you down, just keep at it and it will click.
I had the exact same problem, I logged my first 16hrs in a PA-38, before the school went bust and I moved onto the C152, it took me hours to get used to judging the flare and hold off.
If I'm honest It just clicked after around 15 hours in the 152, I went on to complete the PPL in 51 hours 35 mins, and 2 hours 25 for my skills test.
Dont let it get you down, just keep at it and it will click.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Any tips....
Choose "Landing tips" or "Landing technique" as keyword (titles only), Private Flying as the forum, and From any date (and newer).
SD
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23 hours is no way overdue to be going solo and thats without changing school or aircraft type.
BTW there is now a PA38 school open again at INV same building as the flying school folded in if you prefer flying them.
BTW there is now a PA38 school open again at INV same building as the flying school folded in if you prefer flying them.
Avoid imitations
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All you gotta do is fly it to the ground then stop it.
(Try to imagine landing on a large conveyor belt......
).
(Try to imagine landing on a large conveyor belt......
).
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i had a similar problem when converting to a c172. got it cured by two things:
1. laying the flight manuals for the two aircraft side by side and comparing the characteristic speeds. in my case, the 172 had a slightly higher recommended approach speed but a lower stall speed. as soon as i understood there was a greater speed margin to lose, everything else was clear.
2. for a while (until i got a better feeling of the plane), trimming slightly nose up on the final so i wouldn't have to pull so hard.
1. laying the flight manuals for the two aircraft side by side and comparing the characteristic speeds. in my case, the 172 had a slightly higher recommended approach speed but a lower stall speed. as soon as i understood there was a greater speed margin to lose, everything else was clear.
2. for a while (until i got a better feeling of the plane), trimming slightly nose up on the final so i wouldn't have to pull so hard.
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One thing I found when I was having problems with landings was that I was thinking (or perhaps worrying is more accurate) too far ahead - i.e. getting preoccupied with "when should I flare" when I should still be concentrating on the approach speed, or worse still, rushing to arrange the go-around when I should still be looking ahead and flaring.
Try to relax (yeah I know - far easier said than done!) and don't give up - you will get there in the end. It may not be landings, and it may not be within our PPL, but many of us (all of us?) go through a stage like this.
Ali
Try to relax (yeah I know - far easier said than done!) and don't give up - you will get there in the end. It may not be landings, and it may not be within our PPL, but many of us (all of us?) go through a stage like this.
Ali
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With my instructor in the plane I tend to come in too low. I'm aiming for the begining of the threshold, trying to make it the 'perfect' landing. Then comes the sink, and I have to add too much power to get back on the glide slope. Due to the extra power I tend to be too high, too fast, and have to hold off for too long and end up bouncing. (I've gotten better tho).
Without the instructor, I have always had near perfect landings.
Relax, don't try too hard. You're in a plane, it's awesome. Remember what you've been taught, anticipate sinks where you'd expect it, come in too high add flaps or go-around. Come in too low and it takes alot more effort to sort yourself out.
But most importantly, don't give up!
Without the instructor, I have always had near perfect landings.
Relax, don't try too hard. You're in a plane, it's awesome. Remember what you've been taught, anticipate sinks where you'd expect it, come in too high add flaps or go-around. Come in too low and it takes alot more effort to sort yourself out.
But most importantly, don't give up!
I went solo on about 23 hrs, in the 152 make sure you nail 65kts, as the runway comes up round your shoulders level out, throttle back and then just try and keep it flying! Try to anticipate the sink and pitch up to compensate, just bring the nose gradually up and it will settle itself on the runway. I had people explain it to me so many different ways but in the end you just get a feel for it. Are you landing flaps 30 or 20? 30 always seems easier to me as it seems less inclined to float. Happy landings!
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There were two tips (both of which I read on here) that helped me out and they still help me out now.
i) As you start to round out, move your focus to about 2/3 of the way down the runway and rely on your peripheral vision to judge the flare. Initially its sounds and feels strange, but it does work.
ii) Someone on here talked about an instructor who used to pull out a £50 note and tell the student it was his if he could keep the aircraft flying just above the runway until the end of the runway. If you try to do this with no power, the only way is to keep raising the nose until eventually you settle onto the runway perfectly.
I hope these help you as much as they did me.
i) As you start to round out, move your focus to about 2/3 of the way down the runway and rely on your peripheral vision to judge the flare. Initially its sounds and feels strange, but it does work.
ii) Someone on here talked about an instructor who used to pull out a £50 note and tell the student it was his if he could keep the aircraft flying just above the runway until the end of the runway. If you try to do this with no power, the only way is to keep raising the nose until eventually you settle onto the runway perfectly.
I hope these help you as much as they did me.
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There is an interesting discussion in the instructor section on teaching the landing, techniques and common problems - it may be worth you having a read to see if you can glean any insight. The thread can be found here http://www.pprune.org/flying-instruc...t-landing.html you can also take comfort in that if instructors are talking about it, you are not alone in having it as a problem.
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Difficult to describe but the "ground rush" when the airfield suddenly seems to up to your ears & no longer below you, then you round out/flare, looking at the far end, then try not to land by keep moving the stick/yoke back.
Sit in it on the apron & get someone to pull the tail down/nose wheel off the ground 6" (152mm) & try to remember that "picture".
Pontificating about "How to land an aeroplane" is great when you are sitting at a keyboard. You should see some of my "landings" you would laugh like a drain. I usually apologise to my passenger that I have done better. However the a/c is still useable after.
As has been said it will click one day & you will wonder what all the fuss was about.
Meantime have fun & enjoy it.
Sit in it on the apron & get someone to pull the tail down/nose wheel off the ground 6" (152mm) & try to remember that "picture".
Pontificating about "How to land an aeroplane" is great when you are sitting at a keyboard. You should see some of my "landings" you would laugh like a drain. I usually apologise to my passenger that I have done better. However the a/c is still useable after.
As has been said it will click one day & you will wonder what all the fuss was about.
Meantime have fun & enjoy it.
Moderator
The advice to hold the plane off the ground is the best advice here. Get close to the ground, keep it straight down the runway, slowly pull the power right off, and then pretend that you have decided not to land after all, and hold it off (don't add power of course). Even after the wheels touch, keep holding it off, it really helps with slowing down.
Don't worry about running off the end of the runway. If you crossed the threshold at the right speed and altitude, then land as we have suggested, you'll be fine. The plane will slow down as quickly in the air, as it would have on the ground anyway. You're not using any brakes until the very end of the roll out anyway.
Relax, you'll do fine...
Pilot DAR
Don't worry about running off the end of the runway. If you crossed the threshold at the right speed and altitude, then land as we have suggested, you'll be fine. The plane will slow down as quickly in the air, as it would have on the ground anyway. You're not using any brakes until the very end of the roll out anyway.
Relax, you'll do fine...
Pilot DAR
Asphalt Texture or Grass Blades
When you can distinguish surface texture or individual grass blades, it's time to flare. I sometimes have people climb up a TV antenna tower 8-10' to get a sight picture of the grass below that matches when they should be beginning to flare.
That's the time to begin looking at the end of the runway while holding landing attitude and controlling drift. You have to use peripheral vision for the last few feet / inches of descent.
Sometimes in the glider I can hear the grass brushing the tailwheel and just squeeze on a bit more spoiler to bring the main down
Some of us have an ocular defect that leads to late or early flares. The optometrist will suggest prisms and trust me, they make a big difference. Your medical examiner had you look at a slide with red dots against upside down l's. If the line does not go through the middle, see an optometrist about prisms.
That's the time to begin looking at the end of the runway while holding landing attitude and controlling drift. You have to use peripheral vision for the last few feet / inches of descent.
Sometimes in the glider I can hear the grass brushing the tailwheel and just squeeze on a bit more spoiler to bring the main down
Some of us have an ocular defect that leads to late or early flares. The optometrist will suggest prisms and trust me, they make a big difference. Your medical examiner had you look at a slide with red dots against upside down l's. If the line does not go through the middle, see an optometrist about prisms.
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Keep going
Not clear where, exactly, you're hitting the problem but if it's in judging the flare then there's already been plenty of good advice (and it's been a while since I landed a 152). The most important point of all being to relax and enjoy yourself - this is supposed to be fun after all.
If your problems start before the flare then maybe you're not judging the approach correctly. You need to manage the energy state of the aircraft, where you have both kinetic (speed) and potential (altitude) energy. Nail the airspeed and make sure you keep that speed and use the sight picture to judge if you're getting low or high. If you're getting low on energy (slow speed/low) then you need to bring in some power. If you're getting high (too fast/high) you need to reduce power, or add flaps. Be flexible. No two landings are the same.
Still, above all, relax (yeah, I know I said it twice) and have confidence in your ability to land the plane. Confidence will help you no end.
One final point - it may not hurt to try a flight or two with a different instructor to get some more input on your flying. A good instructor will have no problems with you doing this and, in fact, it's exactly what I did for one flight when I was having trouble nailing wheel landings in a Citabria. A different perspective can really help sometimes.
If your problems start before the flare then maybe you're not judging the approach correctly. You need to manage the energy state of the aircraft, where you have both kinetic (speed) and potential (altitude) energy. Nail the airspeed and make sure you keep that speed and use the sight picture to judge if you're getting low or high. If you're getting low on energy (slow speed/low) then you need to bring in some power. If you're getting high (too fast/high) you need to reduce power, or add flaps. Be flexible. No two landings are the same.
Still, above all, relax (yeah, I know I said it twice) and have confidence in your ability to land the plane. Confidence will help you no end.
One final point - it may not hurt to try a flight or two with a different instructor to get some more input on your flying. A good instructor will have no problems with you doing this and, in fact, it's exactly what I did for one flight when I was having trouble nailing wheel landings in a Citabria. A different perspective can really help sometimes.
Grumpy
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Agree with profot about looking at the end of the runway.
This was how I was taught - and in fact told and then try and get the aircraft to actually fly by holding off - holding off.
When I worked in the Oz regulator years ago we also took on board someone doing a masters degree in psychology to assist her with her thesis which was focused on how pilots learn to land an aircraft.
After months of study using all sorts of devices in an experiment with pilots of all backgrounds including military, RPT, instructors and low time GA pilots like myself she came to the conclusion that there is no one way to teach or to land an aircraft. All pilots do it differently - and in most cases successfully.
Not sure whether she was granted her masters on the basis of this.
This was how I was taught - and in fact told and then try and get the aircraft to actually fly by holding off - holding off.
When I worked in the Oz regulator years ago we also took on board someone doing a masters degree in psychology to assist her with her thesis which was focused on how pilots learn to land an aircraft.
After months of study using all sorts of devices in an experiment with pilots of all backgrounds including military, RPT, instructors and low time GA pilots like myself she came to the conclusion that there is no one way to teach or to land an aircraft. All pilots do it differently - and in most cases successfully.
Not sure whether she was granted her masters on the basis of this.
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I would go with that Barkly.
Its strange sometimes its lunch that sorts any problems out. Something just clicks and then solo is only 3 circuits away.
There are all sorts of theorys about how to teach the landing all of them correct.
90% of the time when I had problem students it was because they hadn't really understood the basic lessons. A couple of hours revision and back to the circuit and things were sorted.
I was only ever defeated by one student
Its strange sometimes its lunch that sorts any problems out. Something just clicks and then solo is only 3 circuits away.
There are all sorts of theorys about how to teach the landing all of them correct.
90% of the time when I had problem students it was because they hadn't really understood the basic lessons. A couple of hours revision and back to the circuit and things were sorted.
I was only ever defeated by one student
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You need a long runway somewhere and a willing instructor.
If the approach is sound, bad landings are almost always are caused by:
a. A lack of feel for where the runway is,
b. The need to rush the landing before you run ouf of tarmac.
With a long runway available you can attempt a few landings where you hold the aircraft off for as long as possible in the certain knowledge there is no risk of running out of runway. You might well be amazed at just how quickly the aircraft stops after in finally settles. You will also develop a feel for where the runway is because the brain learns the perspective by frequent exposure to the visual ques. If you havent many landings under your belt and they have all been a bit rushed the brains exposure to these visual ques is short. A loooong holdoff will give your brain more visual ques that it gets in 10 rushed landings so doing it this way also represents very good value for money.
I know it works, tried it with quite a few and they are always amazed at what an effective cure it provides. In fact if you start flying faster aircraft (or at least aircraft with a faster approach speed) it remains just as effective when you find yourself rushing the landings because you are worried about running out of tarmac. A short session of going back to basics soon sorts it out.
Good luck.
If the approach is sound, bad landings are almost always are caused by:
a. A lack of feel for where the runway is,
b. The need to rush the landing before you run ouf of tarmac.
With a long runway available you can attempt a few landings where you hold the aircraft off for as long as possible in the certain knowledge there is no risk of running out of runway. You might well be amazed at just how quickly the aircraft stops after in finally settles. You will also develop a feel for where the runway is because the brain learns the perspective by frequent exposure to the visual ques. If you havent many landings under your belt and they have all been a bit rushed the brains exposure to these visual ques is short. A loooong holdoff will give your brain more visual ques that it gets in 10 rushed landings so doing it this way also represents very good value for money.
I know it works, tried it with quite a few and they are always amazed at what an effective cure it provides. In fact if you start flying faster aircraft (or at least aircraft with a faster approach speed) it remains just as effective when you find yourself rushing the landings because you are worried about running out of tarmac. A short session of going back to basics soon sorts it out.
Good luck.