Round Britain 2012 - Questions
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Round Britain 2012 - Questions
Hi All,
Firstly, i hope that these questions do not in any way break any rules.
We are a company that is charged with putting on a race around Britain in 2012, RB12. The very simple plan is that we have a number of elements to the race including: Air, Land & Sea. There will be a possible fourth element online/virtual.
A breakdown is 50 aircraft, 100 cars & 75 powerboats racing. The route would start in London and finish there and go all the way around, taking approx. 12 days. Each evening would be party event that all competitors would be part of. We intend to have an air display team to follow along also.
We are currently deciding if this is viable and would ask if you as aviation people would be interested in such an event and what you would deem as acceptable to pay as an entry fee?
Also, be keen to hear from any display teams that might like to get involved.
Thanks in advance.
Stuart
Firstly, i hope that these questions do not in any way break any rules.
We are a company that is charged with putting on a race around Britain in 2012, RB12. The very simple plan is that we have a number of elements to the race including: Air, Land & Sea. There will be a possible fourth element online/virtual.
A breakdown is 50 aircraft, 100 cars & 75 powerboats racing. The route would start in London and finish there and go all the way around, taking approx. 12 days. Each evening would be party event that all competitors would be part of. We intend to have an air display team to follow along also.
We are currently deciding if this is viable and would ask if you as aviation people would be interested in such an event and what you would deem as acceptable to pay as an entry fee?
Also, be keen to hear from any display teams that might like to get involved.
Thanks in advance.
Stuart
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The London bit may be a problem for aircraft due to airspace / restrictions / suitable airfields.
Also around Britain is not really very far for aeroplanes - how would you do each leg and how would you handycap the aeroplanes? For example someone could enter in a 250kt speedster, and someone else in a 90kt slowmobile. I guess you'd have to have mandatory turning points (or a daily course) and have some method of recording the exact route and have each leg designed to take a suitable amount of time. Otherwise the speedy ones would be done in less than a day
I have no idea what would be deemed a suitable entry fee - it depends what is included in the fee I suppose. I'd enter if it was reasonable, as it sounds like a laugh.
Also around Britain is not really very far for aeroplanes - how would you do each leg and how would you handycap the aeroplanes? For example someone could enter in a 250kt speedster, and someone else in a 90kt slowmobile. I guess you'd have to have mandatory turning points (or a daily course) and have some method of recording the exact route and have each leg designed to take a suitable amount of time. Otherwise the speedy ones would be done in less than a day
I have no idea what would be deemed a suitable entry fee - it depends what is included in the fee I suppose. I'd enter if it was reasonable, as it sounds like a laugh.
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The exact way of getting the a/c round would be decided later but as you say either handicapped, timed, routes etc, plenty of ways of making it longer or shorter.
We want to make an event that is good fun but also challenging in some way. For some that might be just getting out of the beer tent...
We want to make an event that is good fun but also challenging in some way. For some that might be just getting out of the beer tent...
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I think that an individual should have to drive, fly and sail during the course of the one competition, thereby finding a land, sea and air champion!
A bit like a triathlon for petrol heads (except the sailing bit)
AFAIK it's never been done before and I'd certainly consider entering!
Who wants to sponsor me?
A bit like a triathlon for petrol heads (except the sailing bit)
AFAIK it's never been done before and I'd certainly consider entering!
Who wants to sponsor me?
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12 days for round Britain is way too long in an aircraft - I've just thrown together a route possibly similar to what you propose, encompassing the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland - 14 HOURS in the air using a decent touring aircraft.
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As has been previously been mentioned a simple flight around the outskirts of the UK would not take long in a powered light aircraft and would not be more challenging than managing fuel/radio (navigation is done by following the coast in general).
What would be challenging would be to do it in a glider, but for powered aircraft another challenge would be to do the round the coast challenge landing at each and every aerodrome within X distance of the coast getting verification from the tower at each aerodrome and proceeding to the next - this could be mixed with pilots alternating each of the legs of the flight.
There are of course a number of considerations to account for....
1) Aircraft and aerodrome - not all aircraft are suitable to land at all aerodromes.
2) Sponsorship - flying for reward may/may not require specific licence requirements from the CAA (e.g. cpl).
3) Landing fees - I would imagine some aerodromes would waive these for a charitable flight made known in advance.
4) Cost - Bearing in mind if you took as little as only £50 an hour for fuel whilst in the air, 1 hour a day for 12 days is £600. You also have to factor in staying somewhere each night of the 12 days.
5) Insurance - Will your standard insurance cover you for a trip such as this.
6) Alot of GA aerodromes require prior permission to land - this would involve a large admin task to obtain prior to such an event.
7) Any entry fee has to take into account the costs of actually participating.
8) Weather - you cannot rely on weather, most GA pilots are restricted to VFR and will not be able to fly if there is a low cloud base, rain etc etc
Some of the above probably can be answered quite quickly by those on here - I am not far enough into my ppl to do so. I hope to gain my ppl in January and would definately consider doing this if practical.
What would be challenging would be to do it in a glider, but for powered aircraft another challenge would be to do the round the coast challenge landing at each and every aerodrome within X distance of the coast getting verification from the tower at each aerodrome and proceeding to the next - this could be mixed with pilots alternating each of the legs of the flight.
There are of course a number of considerations to account for....
1) Aircraft and aerodrome - not all aircraft are suitable to land at all aerodromes.
2) Sponsorship - flying for reward may/may not require specific licence requirements from the CAA (e.g. cpl).
3) Landing fees - I would imagine some aerodromes would waive these for a charitable flight made known in advance.
4) Cost - Bearing in mind if you took as little as only £50 an hour for fuel whilst in the air, 1 hour a day for 12 days is £600. You also have to factor in staying somewhere each night of the 12 days.
5) Insurance - Will your standard insurance cover you for a trip such as this.
6) Alot of GA aerodromes require prior permission to land - this would involve a large admin task to obtain prior to such an event.
7) Any entry fee has to take into account the costs of actually participating.
8) Weather - you cannot rely on weather, most GA pilots are restricted to VFR and will not be able to fly if there is a low cloud base, rain etc etc
Some of the above probably can be answered quite quickly by those on here - I am not far enough into my ppl to do so. I hope to gain my ppl in January and would definately consider doing this if practical.
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Each evening would be party event that all competitors would be part of.
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A bit like a triathlon for petrol heads (except the sailing bit)
Chilli,
Fully agree that you can go around in a lot less time but thats not the point. The aim is to make it a race with a number of tasks/challenges on route and be part of a bigger event. We now a chap who has been around Britain in a powerboat non-stop in 20 something hours but he still entered the last powerboat race over 10 days because he enjoys doing the event with a group of like minded people and having a good time/challenge.
Jofm5,
For some people the route itself would be very challenging, IMHO. But you are right about the opportunity to alter the route each leg etc. The plan for the supercars would be to include a number of tracks on route for them to race on. The detail on the aircraft route is to be decided but if you look at air racing as a good start point for ideas on what we could do with the fleet.
To answer some of your other points:
There are of course a number of considerations to account for....
1) Aircraft and aerodrome - not all aircraft are suitable to land at all aerodromes.Agreed, but we cant cater for everyone.
2) Sponsorship - flying for reward may/may not require specific license requirements from the CAA (e.g. cpl).I think air racing is fairly simple in this area and no more than ppl with 100 hrs covers them.
3) Landing fees - I would imagine some aerodromes would waive these for a charitable flight made known in advance.I do hope so...
4) Cost - Bearing in mind if you took as little as only £50 an hour for fuel whilst in the air, 1 hour a day for 12 days is £600. You also have to factor in staying somewhere each night of the 12 days.and you would have to pay an entry fee.. Part of my first post was what would you expect to pay for an event being put on over 12 days where all you had to do was turn up?
5) Insurance - Will your standard insurance cover you for a trip such as this.Will need to be confirmed.
6) Alot of GA aerodromes require prior permission to land - this would involve a large admin task to obtain prior to such an event.Yes, but that is what you pay for with the event.
7) Any entry fee has to take into account the costs of actually participating.Agreed.
8) Weather - you cannot rely on weather, most GA pilots are restricted to VFR and will not be able to fly if there is a low cloud base, rain etc etcThe biggest challenge I'm sure but you can't plan for it and we can not not do it because the weather might be bad.
Gertrude the Wombat
Except that anyone flying in the morning is unlikely to be terribly interested in drinking a great deal - many pilots drink nothing at all the night before flying.
The event location would be more than just a party, it would most likly be a festival with a number of other things going on, air display, paras, bands etc etcThank you so far for your comments
Stuart
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But there are legalities affecting flying after drinking - more restrictive than the drink/drive rules. Have you looked into this aspect?
Already done by microlights.
Q) Egxx/qwtlw/iv/m/w/000/020/5411n00441w268
From: 09/06/19 00:00 To: 09/06/28 23:59
E) Around Britain Microlight Rally. (up To 40 Acft May Participate).
From: 09/06/19 00:00 To: 09/06/28 23:59
E) Around Britain Microlight Rally. (up To 40 Acft May Participate).
Except that anyone flying in the morning is unlikely to be terribly interested in drinking a great deal - many pilots drink nothing at all the night before flying.
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And a large number like to drink lots
I'll believe that you might personally know a few, in which case you should consider shopping them before they kill themselves or others.
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I actually think a Round Britain "race" would be an extremely fun thing to do, and I'd certainly be in the beer tent each evening - one doesn't have to get plastered every night, and if you do make sure you have a co-pilot (I know lots of pilots who like a drink...) So count me in. It may encourage some of the "£100 burger" lot to do something a bit different too.
I wouldn't mind paying a reasonably entry fee either which covered accomodation, landings, admin and all that stuff. As an example I was going to do the Lands End to John O' Groats bike ride as part of an organised group. Fees were typically £800-£1500 depending on whether you wanted to camp or stay in a decent hotel, but covered everything. Difficult to say what entry fee would be appropriate for this event, but typically you'd be talking a few thou + I should imagine if it covered accomodation / landings etc etc... (but not running costs or other aeroplane associated costs). I reckon you'd have to have a clause in there allowing a full refund if the aeroplane cannot enter due to weather or unforseen technical problems though.
The problem I think would be to make it interesting enough - how would one make legs challenging? I suppose one could zig zag around the country and visit lots of airfields as "checkpoints". Maybe throw in some navigation element, or have cryptic clues as to where the next destination would be...who knows? How would one handicap the fast aeroplanes so that the slow aeroplanes (like mine) stood a chance ? The best way I suppose would be to take the book 80% cruise speed and then adjust the handicap based on that. So if one aeroplane at 80% does 160 kts, and one at 80% does 90 kts, adjust them both to 100 kts - so the 160kt gets a time penalty of +60% and the 90kt gets -10%... or something like that.
If a London airport could be arranged for the finish, that would be fun (London City on a Sunday perhaps
) . Could be tricky though and make sure it is not at the same time as the Olympics as there are going to be plenty of flight restrictions.
Safety would have to be looked at - maybe do a deal with FLARM to rent 50+ units for the event. With 50+ aeroplanes all going too and from the same airfield at different times, could get a bit crowded in the skies.
Anyway good luck with the event, and keep us informed as I'd enter if the costs look reasonable, that is for sure...
So count me in. It may encourage some of the "£100 burger" lot to do something a bit different too.I wouldn't mind paying a reasonably entry fee either which covered accomodation, landings, admin and all that stuff. As an example I was going to do the Lands End to John O' Groats bike ride as part of an organised group. Fees were typically £800-£1500 depending on whether you wanted to camp or stay in a decent hotel, but covered everything. Difficult to say what entry fee would be appropriate for this event, but typically you'd be talking a few thou + I should imagine if it covered accomodation / landings etc etc... (but not running costs or other aeroplane associated costs). I reckon you'd have to have a clause in there allowing a full refund if the aeroplane cannot enter due to weather or unforseen technical problems though.
The problem I think would be to make it interesting enough - how would one make legs challenging? I suppose one could zig zag around the country and visit lots of airfields as "checkpoints". Maybe throw in some navigation element, or have cryptic clues as to where the next destination would be...who knows? How would one handicap the fast aeroplanes so that the slow aeroplanes (like mine
) stood a chance ? The best way I suppose would be to take the book 80% cruise speed and then adjust the handicap based on that. So if one aeroplane at 80% does 160 kts, and one at 80% does 90 kts, adjust them both to 100 kts - so the 160kt gets a time penalty of +60% and the 90kt gets -10%... or something like that.If a London airport could be arranged for the finish, that would be fun (London City on a Sunday perhaps
) . Could be tricky though and make sure it is not at the same time as the Olympics as there are going to be plenty of flight restrictions.Safety would have to be looked at - maybe do a deal with FLARM to rent 50+ units for the event. With 50+ aeroplanes all going too and from the same airfield at different times, could get a bit crowded in the skies.
Anyway good luck with the event, and keep us informed as I'd enter if the costs look reasonable, that is for sure...
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But there are legalities affecting flying after drinking - more restrictive than the drink/drive rules. Have you looked into this aspect?
I dont think you have understood what a serious matter alcohol is for pilots. The regulations are very strict and you should not put yourself in the position of encouraging pilots to break them.
I'll believe that you might personally know a few, in which case you should consider shopping them before they kill themselves or others.
I dont think you have understood what a serious matter alcohol is for pilots. The regulations are very strict and you should not put yourself in the position of encouraging pilots to break them.
I'll believe that you might personally know a few, in which case you should consider shopping them before they kill themselves or others.
englishal,
Thank you for your comments, very helpful.
We could look at offering a service to source the whole package, accom etc and as a group order we would most likely get some good discounts to pass on. However, as you noted with the LeJog what people want to pay and what standard of accom can be a bit of a never ending pain in the .... To that end we where considering leaving that to entries. You would get the whole event sorted for you which would include landing fees, parking etc included.
I think you answered your own point re the route, yes we could incorporate all sorts of elements but we want to make it interesting for all and we could perhaps have classes dependent on experience/type etc also.
Once again thanks so far to those that have made comment.
Regards
Stuart
THE ROUND BRITAIN POWERBOAT RACE 2012
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To that end we where considering leaving that to entries
But why not also look at camping on some of the airfields? Some airfields would do this, and provide showers / toilets for the event at reasonable cost - plus it would be quite a laugh to camp next to your plane.
Classes are a good idea - class each aeroplane by their book curise speed. Up to 100 kts, 100-110 kts, 110-120 kts etc....You could design different legs for each class, but all terminating at the same destination.
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With the drinking and flying side, yes it is something that pilots involved would need to be concious of, but as has been said, the flying time involved here would not be enourmous so if each days flying were to start at (say) 1pm then you would still be able to have a couple of glasses of vino without too much problem, for those that do not drink at all the night before they fly then there are always soft drinks - should give you an advantage over those that have had the booze as well!
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englishal,
Thanks for the comments. The accommodation could be done as you suggest and clearly as a group it might be worth it. My concern would be the hassle of sorting the accommodation out ! Something or somebody always changes and it always ends up as a massive headache for us.
Camping could be an option and would potentially be cheaper but this would have to be at the smaller fields.
The aim is to get everyone together each evening so would suggest that hotel accommodation centrally would be our preferred option.
Re the classes, would want everyone to do the same route but the idea of having classes would make the running of it a better IMHO.
Thinking on from the post re 14 hrs around the UK, what would you deem to be an ideal days flying time? Not forgetting this will be tasked based.
Regards
Stuart
Thanks for the comments. The accommodation could be done as you suggest and clearly as a group it might be worth it. My concern would be the hassle of sorting the accommodation out ! Something or somebody always changes and it always ends up as a massive headache for us.
Camping could be an option and would potentially be cheaper but this would have to be at the smaller fields.
The aim is to get everyone together each evening so would suggest that hotel accommodation centrally would be our preferred option.
Re the classes, would want everyone to do the same route but the idea of having classes would make the running of it a better IMHO.
Thinking on from the post re 14 hrs around the UK, what would you deem to be an ideal days flying time? Not forgetting this will be tasked based.
Regards
Stuart
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Now there's a challenge..
Perhaps i should touch on what the bi-product of the event will be.
We are aiming to use the event as a catalyst for an "Inspire and Involve" program. This will be by working with a national charity to put both social enterprise and social inclusion programs together. We want to use the race "event" as an opportunity to offer those that would not normally be able to get involved with these sports. Any ideas welcome?
Regards
Stuart
Perhaps i should touch on what the bi-product of the event will be.
We are aiming to use the event as a catalyst for an "Inspire and Involve" program. This will be by working with a national charity to put both social enterprise and social inclusion programs together. We want to use the race "event" as an opportunity to offer those that would not normally be able to get involved with these sports. Any ideas welcome?
Regards
Stuart
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You'd want a decent day's flying...by that I mean at least 3 hours in the air (plus then people renting could justify taking an aeroplane away). Except 3 hrs for me is 300 miles, for someone else it might be 500 miles. If you designed the leg for them, it'd be 5 hrs for me! You could always break it up by having intermediate stops but you'd have to visit a lot of airfields in 12 days to actually make it take 12 days.
The Around Europe would be a brilliant idea - often a lot of people are scared to venture to Europe, but if it was part of an organised trip with PPR's etc., pre-arranged I reckon a lot of people would take part. The Euro one would certainly be more challenging from a aviation point of view.
The Around Europe would be a brilliant idea - often a lot of people are scared to venture to Europe, but if it was part of an organised trip with PPR's etc., pre-arranged I reckon a lot of people would take part. The Euro one would certainly be more challenging from a aviation point of view.