I think I cheesed off Gloucester tower yesterday for going around

[FREDAcheck]

Quote:

I said "aircraft on the runway", to which I was told "you could have made it you had 1/4 mile".

Did you make clear that you were a student pilot, on an early (first?) solo?

Good point. The Tower probably shouldn't have implied criticism of a student. For a qualified PPL, well maybe he still shouldn't, but qualified pilots need thick skins. I was on short final in the US with FIVE aircraft on the runway ahead, waiting to cross an intersecting runway. I called that I was going around. Tower called back: "Not enough room for you boy? Get down there!" He was right: there was loads of room. And when I was about to touch down near the start of the runway, I got: "There's another 4 behind you, don't touch down until at least half way please."

But that shouldn't happen with a student, and in any case a pilot should never be intimidated by ATC (or anyone else) about going around if he or she (the pilot) isn't happy with the approach.

[Mark1234]

I don't know gloucester, but I'd agree with everyone AND particularly the last 2:

You're not comfortable - go around, your minimums are your perogative, don't be pressured. You may have been a bit nervous, but there's nothing wrong with that at all.

However, in a busy environment it's possible to safely stack aircraft in pretty quick and close if everyone's confortable. It's not unusual in my experience to be at 400ft(alt) on final with another a/c landing ahead of you still airborne. Just because it can be done doesn't mean you should do it though - like so many things it's a matter of judgement, and what you're happy dealing with.

[GunkyTom]

From an ATCO.

Based on what you said-You did everything right. If you aren't happy, go around. I would expect a commercial pilot to have gone around if he didn't have landing clearance at 1/4 mile. Re. the 'land after' I don't know Gloucester but looking at the rwy length, I think it is highly unlikely that the procedure is practiced there,certainly not 'land after the departing' anyway.
The ATCO shouldn't have commented on air. It is unprofessional in many ways. It will be interesting to see the outcome of this as it is possible the ATCO had a different take on it however, if you aren't happy- go around .

[airborne_artist]

You did the right thing - this is an old saying, and not in keeping with current CRM in multi-crew aircraft, but it works fine when you are solo:

"no stick, no vote" - and look on the bright side - you got an extra few minutes in the air

[Sam Rutherford]

If you have a chance, go to the tower and chat to the guys there. Fun, informative, and they'll be really happy to show you about.

Might encourage them to give you a fraction more 'space' next time as well!

Safe flights!

Sam.

[matspart3]

As promised, I spoke to the ATCO concerned and listened to the recordings today. I've been in touch with Glasswasher Man and, with his blessing, post the PM I sent him which is a precis of events. He PM'd me last night with some more details of the situation, which are referenced to, but fairly self-explanatory within the context. I've removed the names (to protect the innocent: -

Originally Posted by matspart3
Hi *******

I've listened to the tapes and had a chat with **** (the Controller.)

You didn't him off!' He was just understandably concerned that, as a solo student, you'd gone around twice and that you may have a problem. In going around, you did EXACTLY the right thing and made an excellent Captain's decision.

When you said on your second go-around 'due traffic on the runway,' he simply offered the advice that 'there's plenty of room, your at three quarters (not 1/4) of a mile' as an encouragement and an explanation that the situation would have comfortably worked out, rather than a b*llocking.

He wasn't aware, of course, that your profile was not ideal, that the turbulence was affecting your flight more generally and had assumed that you weren't comfortable with the spacing. This is the crux of the issue and I'll come back to it...

At that point, he phoned **** just to ask his advice on how you were generally, to gauge whether your might be nervous or have any particular training issues affecting your performance. The conversation was very lighthearted and certainly not any form of admonishment. If *** implied that you'd upset ATC, that was definitley not the case, **** was just worried.

The 'say again' part downwind related to your position in traffic. You were following a company aircraft (GGFCA), who was joining directly onto base leg and crossing your track from right to left. After the couple of transmissions, you reported the traffic in sight, followed and landed safely.

**** has been an ATCO here for almost 10 years and he's without doubt, one of the best we've ever had. I'm very sorry to say that we're losing him very shortly to ******** airport. He's an experienced PPL and a CAA ATC and RT examiner, who is very well versed in dealing with students. His RT is sometimes quite 'short' but he assures me he wasn't ' off.' Your more then welcome to come across and listen to the tapes in realtime if you wish.

In summary, the key here is communication. **** had no way of knowing that the turbulence was making your flight uncomfortable and was doing his best to offer you some assistance. As I said in my message last night, we have absolutely no problem with you asking us to 'say again' over and over again or even using plain language. Please don't be afraid to ask for help, that's exactly what we're here for.

You'd be more than welcome, and I think it would help boost your RT confidence, to come over to the Tower for a visit next time you're around. They're a friendly bunch (especially if you bring cakes and biscuits!) Drop me a line if you're interested.

Finally, if you're happy, I'd like to post a precis of this response on the PPRuNe thread, just to stop the 'armchair experts' degenerating it into an 'us vs them' argument.

Hope this helps

Glasswasher Man has responded and will be coming to the Tower soon (with Shortbread biscuits!!) thereby guaranteeing himself straight-in approaches in future! The small number of posters who immediately jumped to the conclusion that the ATCO was in the wrong might like to reconsider their comments. More generally in relation to other comments, handling upwards of 80 000 movements per annum in an 11-hour day Gloucester does use 'land after' and 'land after the departing' regularly. 7 of its 9 ATCO's has, or has had a PPL at some point and we're not averse to visitors to ATC, especially if they bring cakes and/or single malts.

[worrab]

First Solo go-around

I had to go around on my first solo too. Sweaty palms - Very nerve wracking. When I got back my instructor told me that If I'd tried to land off the first approach he'd "have b*ll*cked" me.

Sounds like you made some excellent decisions - and as is noted above, ATC were entirely content with your airmanship.

[jonkil]

There we go,
thanks for posting the synopsis of the event, it puts everything in context, as for the negative comments towards the ATCO, I don't view them that way in the context of the OP observations, most comments were in support of the student, the correct way he dealt with the situation..... well done again.

This is an excellent thread, a thread many will find useful... and not just students.... all of us.

Jon

[Gertrude the Wombat]

had no way of knowing that the turbulence was making your flight uncomfortable and was doing his best to offer you some assistance

Yes, I've discovered that ATC can help better if they know what the problem is!

First attempt to land, being blown up and down and sideways all over the shop, in something of a crosswind that I'd have coped with on its own, went around.

Asked for the into-wind runway. But although (as it turned out) I'd lined up correctly and was in the right place on final I couldn't actually see the runway! (Grass, low sun, that sort of thing.)

Another go around. I say I'll try the main tarmac runway again. ATC, assuming (because I hadn't said anything different) that my problem was the crosswind, sought to encourage me by saying that the wind had dropped a knot and come round a couple of degrees.

Me: "Oh, it wasn't really the crosswind that was bothering me, it was the turbulence over the threshold."

ATC: "Ah yes, it does that sometimes when the wind is in that direction, because of [some ground feature]. Try a higher approach and touch down some way into the runway."

Worked fine. ATC couldn't so easily have offered that advice if I hadn't told them what my problem was! (And taking three attempts to land was a wonderful first-time-in-a-light-aircraft experience for one of my passengers ...)

[Spitoon]

matspart3, good to hear the story from the other side - something that is rare on a forum like this.

I hope I wasn't one of those 'who immediately jumped to the conclusion that the ATCO was in the wrong' - but as you say in your PM, the key here is communication, and it's far too easy to misunderstand the tacit parts of a RT message (from both ends of the headset). Been there and done it myself on a number of occasions that I can recall....and probably a good number when I didn't realise how my call had been perceived.

Anyway, in this case it's nice to know there's a good outcome. Mmmmm, shortbread.

[BackPacker]

After this, he'll not only get straight-in approaches every time, but gets his own callsign too... "Shortbread One"

[2close]

Excellent decisions. Well done.

Rest assured, if you had landed when the other aircraft still had the rubber attached to the asphalt you'd have been chewed out.

I had to go around twice at EGBJ during the CPL Skills Test, owing to aircraft lined up at the threshold sitting doing nothing after being cleared for take-off, so don't beat yourself up. You did fine.

If you want to develop thick skin when dealing with ATC try a spot of training at a certain North London AD - those familiar will know where I mean!! That same AD has a 200' rule - no clearance obtained by 200' AGL and around you go. At 1/4 mile (as you thought at the time) you would have been well below that.

I'm not suggesting that this should be the rule as opposed to the norm everywhere as experienced controllers can sequence GA aircraft quite tightly, although they should always be aware when student pilots are flying solo and be prepared to give some leeway.

Also, good drills on the part of the ATCO making the call to the FS to get some background info on the pilot - a fuller picture always helps.

Again, well done all.

2close

[airborne_artist]

While the ATCO can't be expected to have ESP, the weather conditions were ideal for turbulence, and his PPL experience, plus his ten years' service at the airfield might have pointed him towards turbulence being a factor in your situation.

He could have said "Shortbread One, are you experiencing turbulence on finals?", apart from anything else he could then have warned subsequent aircraft.

[VCR]

In my 10 years of flying from there I have NEVER experienced turbulence on final for 09, nor did any of the other 300 movements that day report it. It was a fairly steady wind all day. As you rightly say, I do not possess ESP!

[hatzflyer]

I was told to "expedite" my first taildragger solo landing due to a cherokee " catching you up on finals". It was also my first landing on tarmac. This was at a fly-in just after I got my PPL. I was very nervous and unhappy with the pressure and probably felt just like you did on finals.
However I made the mistake that you didn't,and carried on.
It resulted in me ground looping off the runway and going into the spectators. By a miracal no one was hurt.
The cherokee had to go round anyway,which of course is exactly what he should have done anyway and I learnt a lesson the hard way!
Believe me.You did the right thing as agreed by everyone on this post!

[GunkyTom]

To MATSPt3


Good to see both sides of the story ,it makes more sense. Re the 'land after the dep' comment', I shouldn't have assumed. I looked at your layout and based my comments on my previous airport procedures where we needed at least 2000m/2500m dependant on situation or 1500m if a/c were less than 5700kgs. I again assumed that maybe a crossed rwy 'land after the dep' might be permitted at BJ but thought your rwy lengths for two on the same rwy would not, my mistake-sorry

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by VCR

In my 10 years of flying from there I have NEVER experienced turbulence on final for 09, nor did any of the other 300 movements that day report it. It was a fairly steady wind all day. As you rightly say, I do not possess ESP!

And what seems like significant turbulence to you, is probably quite different to what seems like turbulence to a student pilot.

I notice that I seem to have experienced less and less of it over the years. Surely the climate isn't changing that quickly - but my perception of what is worth worrying about probably has.

G

[madlandrover]

It's also worth bearing in mind - for ATCOs and pilots who've been away from the training world for a while - that different schools may have different points by which a solo student MUST have a clear runway/clearance to land. For my own students it's 300' agl, not least because of the occasionally compromised climb performance of our training aircraft. It's not a committal height (we train them for go arounds right down to the flare!), but it is a point by which we would expect the student to be able to confidently continue the approach.

[BabyBear]

Originally Posted by airborne_artist

He could have said "Shortbread One, are you experiencing turbulence on finals?", apart from anything else he could then have warned subsequent aircraft.

Only ever heard ATC ask if there is turbulence following a previous aircraft reporting such.

A simple misunderstanding that, due to the OP being brave enough to post (and matspart investigating), we have all learned from.

I don't believe there is any need to analyse it to death in an attempt to apportion blame on either side. As I said a simple and understandable misunderstanding, nothing more.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

(we train them for go arounds right down to the flare!)

Really?? Is that all??

Route to broken nose wheel legs, that sounds to me.

I was trained that you can go around any time, even after the third bounce.