Cirrus SR22 down in N.E. Ohio - 2 dead

[OFBSLF]

Not quite.... the tendency seems to concentrate on a non IR rated pilot taking off into a 200ft cloudbase..... At best design issues according to some could be a contributory factor

How do we know he was non-IR rated, other than just a post here on pprune? Has there been a statement to that affect by FAA and/or NTSB? If that is confirmed, yes that would appear to be the proximate cause. But I haven't seen any confirmation of that.

I have found the mainstream media to almost always make a total mess of anything remotely technical, so unless there is something more substantial than:

from some of the news articles I have been reading, it would appear the pilot was not instrument rated,

I would suggest that the jury is still out as to whether he was instrument rated or not.

[IO540]

Fortunately, unlike the UK/Europe where all kinds of "claims" regarding "qualifications" are "possible" you can check the bona fides of any U.S. pilot in a minute or two using faa.gov.

[OFBSLF]

I take it you have already done so and the pilot in question does not have an IFR rating?

[soay]

According to this obituary, the pilot, Michael H. Doran, was a Federal Aviation Administration-certified pilot, holding a multiengine instrument rating, and had many years of flying experience.

[stepwilk]

So he was instrument-rated yet didn't bother to file? Stunning. Hell, I file IFR when it's severe clear.

[BeechNut]

So he was instrument-rated yet didn't bother to file? Stunning. Hell, I file IFR when it's severe clear.

He may have been "rated". But that doesn't mean he was current.

Beech

[Frank Hadad]

Stop guessing...

I find it truly disheartening that we are so quick to make ANY determination regarding this accident, even though we consider ourselves “professionals”. It’s so sad to see the ignorant posts about Michael Doran NOT being Instrument rated or perhaps not current. I happened to know Mr. Doran and he WAS Instrument Rated and he WAS current. He was also Multi-engine rated as the last few posts have indicated. The sad thing is that the people posting the early threads didn’t even bother to do the 3 minutes worth of research to find out Mr. Doran was indeed IFR Rated. Sure, there was 200ft overcast, but that's not really a big deal. In the North East we fly in these conditions constantly and as long as there aren’t thunderous activities in the vicinity, it’s just IFR folks. It’s what we’re trained for. IFR is IFR and if we're in the soup starting 200 or 2000 feet… what's the difference? Why don’t we allow the NTSB Accident Investigators to do their jobs, and stop trying to guess what happened and write completely made-up stories and theories? This goes the same for blaming Cirrus, let the NTSB do their job and worry about your own safety for now... meanwhile, respect the fact that 2 young Men lost their lives and have grieving loved ones mourning their loss. For the post about the “murder”, shame on you CantWait2Navigate… shame on you.

[soay]

Originally Posted by Frank Hadad

In the North East we fly in these conditions constantly and as long as there aren’t thunderous activities in the vicinity, it’s just IFR folks. It’s what we’re trained for. IFR is IFR and if we're in the soup starting 200 or 2000 feet… what's the difference?

The difference is the risk of an unfavourable outcome, if there's a problem such as an engine failure. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should, especially in a single engined aeroplane, but it depends on how risk averse you are. There is some evidence that seat belts and air bags in cars lead to more risk taking by drivers, so it's possible that glass cockpits and airframe parachutes have the same effect on some pilots. This is an area that's ripe for research.

[Riverboat]

Having flown the Cirrus SR22 a fair number of hours (maybe 100) in all weathers (I hold an IR), to various places in Europe, I feel that it is a very fine aircraft. OK, it is a bit different, but more importantly, it is not a simple aircraft and not ideally suitable for a less than average pilot. And even an average pilot will need to get used to it. The sidestick control is initially quite jerky, and I can see that it would be easy to quickly lose control if entering cloud unexpectedly or without the autopilot being in. The rate of roll is quick and it is not always easy to recognise.

And then there is the questions of whether to use the autopilot or not. An inexperienced pilot really should only use the autopilot in good VMC, because the autopilot is quite sophisticated and unless you really know what you are doing, it could catch the inexperienced out, and that could cause real problems if one is not in VMC.

Having said that, I still think it is a fine aircraft, but an advanced one. The Spitfire is a fine aircraft, too, but everyone knows that it's advanced and you have to be a decent pilot to fly it. The same goes for the Cirrus, but in a lesser way.

[paulp]

I find the SR22 quick on the controls which is fun in VFR but a bit touchy in IMC. Trim is sensitive too. Control feel is a little "remote" feeling due to the spring centering. I find the avionics easy to use once you master the Garmin 430. I have no time in Perspective. Like any high performance plane things happen quickly compared to a 172. There seems to be a lot of SR22 accidents but if you compare the number of accidents to the planes in the system on Flightaware it looks better than a BE35 or C/P210 and similar to a BE58, Mooney, BE36. In other words, when you look at fast general aviation trip planes it looks like most others as far as accidents.

What will be interesting on this accident is if the flight data recorder is recovered. I think this was a late 2008 plane apparently purchased in the Oct/Nov time frame with the pilot having joined the Cirrus owners' group in November. That means the plane should have the new data recorder in the tail. It also means that time in type needs to be considered since he may have been new to the SR22.

It appears there was a Flightaware track so I suspect this was an IFR flight with a flightplan. As best I can tell there is no obvious indicator of either a pilot issue or a plane issue. Conditions were challenging but that is what you get a plane like this for and he was an experienced pilot if perhaps (unknown) low in SR22 time.

Paul

[Fuji Abound]

The rate of roll is quick and it is not always easy to recognise.

How were you expecting to recognise it?

[Riverboat]

Well, I feel that the only way to recognise it is by looking at the HSI. There is no real "feel" to a roll like there is in some aircraft. I fly a few types and the SR22 is more likely to give me 30 degrees of bank without my sensing it than any other aircraft I fly.

I just think the SR22 deserves the description of "being slippery". But a decent pilot will be able to master it and then it is a great aircraft. A bit like a thoroughbred racehorse: not everyone can ride one, but if you can. they're FAST!

RB

[IO540]

Well, I feel that the only way to recognise it is by looking at the HSI.

You mean the AI or the TC, presumably? Spotting a roll on the HSI is going to take a good while longer

I just think the SR22 deserves the description of "being slippery". But a decent pilot will be able to master it and then it is a great aircraft. A bit like a thoroughbred racehorse: not everyone can ride one, but if you can. they're FAST!

I think this is being over-cooked. I fly a TB20 which is of similar performance to the SR22 and while it is obviously quicker than a C152, enroute the difference is meaningless other than one arrives 1/3 sooner.

I think the main difference between flying at 100kt and flying at 150kt is that in a 100kt plane you can arrive at the destination circuit and just join in, whereas if you are going at 150kt you need to slow down quite a bit, and you can't do that if you are descending at the same time, so one needs to think ahead a lot more in the arrival phase.

I fly a few types and the SR22 is more likely to give me 30 degrees of bank without my sensing it than any other aircraft I fly.

I think that may be because of the SR22 side sticks being easy to over-control. I have flown in an SR22 once or twice and found it pretty difficult to control the roll as precisely as one can easily do with a yoke. One needs to use the aileron trim a lot and I think most pilots just use the autopilot the whole time. I prefer the yoke but the side stick is clearly a better long range touring setup than a centre stick.

[Fuji Abound]

You mean the AI or the TC, presumably? Spotting a roll on the HSI is going to take a good while longer

Hmm, the original comment made me wonder, and the response confirmed my concern.

I think this is being over-cooked.

It depends.

In the approach phase the 22 takes a lot more slowing down compard with most types and even the majority of twins where the U/C can be dumped to get rid of energy. In the 22 the flap limiting speed is reasonably high and it is easy to end up hot and high.

I fly a few types and the SR22 is more likely to give me 30 degrees of bank without my sensing it than any other aircraft I fly.

Hmm, what that is all about I have no idea. How big do you want the AI or, even the screen to be.

being easy to over-control.

I understand your comment, but if anything I find the opposite. On one particulary turbulent crosswind approach in conditions I found quite unpleasant I found I didnt have enough aileron authority never mind enough to over control. Too many hours on more aerobatic aircraft perhaps.

[007helicopter]

Worth starting a Cirrus handling Thread ?

As far as this accident in Ohio there are no facts yet to confirm if Pilot error or somthing else, the vast majority of Cirrus accidents from the 53 fatals can be directly linked to Pilot error, in my opinion there is not a lot wrong with the aircraft or instruments.

The missions Cirrus are capable of and the relative automation combined with the perceived security CAPS gives may well lead some into situations they can not handle.

Without thread drifting to far ,the Lidle NYC accident is still going through the legal process despite the NTSB saying Pilot Error.

Miles O'Brien - Uplinks - Lidle Lawsuit is Frivolous - True/Slant

[kenhughes]

There is now an updated preliminary report on the NTSB website:

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=CEN09FA267&rpt=p

The debate about IFR/VFR is resolved:

The flight was being conducted under 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 on an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident.

But, as mentioned above, still no comment on the cause.