RE: Spinning on the PPL course

[Lightning6]

Well said 421dog...The throttle back hands and feet off everything will work in your average spam can, whilst it will recover from the spin, you will inevitably end up in a dive approaching VNE and probably wings not level, now this is a situation that could have been avoided if trained to recover in the correct way.
How many low hours PPL's would have the courage to let go of everything anyway?
How many of them would recognise, in time, that they are approaching VNE?
You would loose a lot more height in this situation.
Even this is not taught in the PPL syllabus, confidence and reaction are the key words, you can only get that trough proper training.

[S-Works]

Why would anyone NOT want to know how to get out of a spin?

I think most of your average pilots would like to know how not to get into one in the first place. A spin by it's nature is an unusual attitude. To get yourself into one in the first place requires some unusual handling. The average pilot flying the average spam can does not get themselves into unusual attitudes in this manner by accident. I can't remember in the last 3000hrs flying along straight and level and the aircraft suddenly departing into a spin. The spin related accidents we see are either aerobatics gone wrong which we don't teach at PPL either or the usual stall spin on final/departure which spin recovery training will not help with. Therefore, I think spin avoidance training should be concentrated on at basic level and those who want more advanced skills then have the option post PPL to gain further experience at places like Ultimate High.

I think sticking to the mentality of 'I had to do it and it did me no harm' is one of the reasons why GA training is so stuck in the mud.

[Skylark58]

I think there were issues about spin recovery with the PA38 when it first was introduced and possibly an accident or two. This was about the time when spin training was discontinued for the PPL. I did spinning as part of my training and remember being quite apprehensive about it and only got really comfortable when I did my FI course.

I would concur with BOSE-X and others that avoidance training is preferable, but a spin should be demonstrated to show the student what exactly they are avoiding. I was given 10 minutes of aerobatics by my instructor before I went solo and it was good to be shown that there is more to flying than straight and level.

There is a difference in gliding, in that gliders spend a lot of their time in a well banked turn just above the stall

[mary meagher]

O boy, here we go! Our gliding club requires annual refresher flights before going solo every spring. Including stalls, spins and spiral dives.

Not that glider pilots, Rusty Sparrow, are specially talented and fearless.
Rauxaman posted that the spin was demonstrated from 700' on the downwind leg. Not any more, it isn't approved by the BGA. They were just too cheap to pay for an aerotow, or not able to climb in a thermal to an appropriate height before spinning. l,800 is my personal limit before spinning a K13, that dear old reliable and trusted trainer.

When I was on the instructor course at Booker, they used to use the 700' spin to demonstrate the phenomenon called GROUND RUSH! Not nice. (You use up 300' in the recovery).

Some types of gliders can be trusted. Others have a very nasty record of killing people in spin training or biting you when least expected, eg turning on to base. A K21 is amost impossible to spin, without lead weights on the tail. A K13 will not spin if the guy in the front needs to go on a diet.
A Puchaz does exactly what it says on the tin. Watch out!

The difference between a spin and a spiral dive is well demonstrated in the K13. If the elevator does not work in the normal sense (stick back, nose DOESN'T go up) you are stalled. If the nose is pointing down at the scenery and it is turning around, you are spinning.

Power pilots, if you would like this experience, look at the British Gliding Association website, and sign up at your local club for a course.
Not nearly so scary as spinning a Chipmonk or a Aerobatic l52. And we practice it a LOT.

[mad_jock]

To be honest Mary I have always been impressed by the way The gliding fraternity setup there training .

It goes from the the initial first flights through to the method they use to progress the Instructors through the learning curve of becoming a fully developed Instructor.

[BackPacker]

Mary, I think it's dangerous comparing spinning in your average glider (with long, slender wings and very sedate spin behaviour as a result) to spinning in your average spamcan (with short, stubby wings and very aggressive and sometimes unpredictable spin behaviour).

According to your post, the BGA considers 700' the minimum for spinning a glider and you claim that spin recovery takes up 300'. That in itself shows that spinning a glider is a very leisurely affair. For comparison, I regularly spin an R2160, which is an aerobatics-capable Robin. A one turn spin and subsequent recovery results in a minimum of 1000' height loss, with each additional turn taking up about 350'. Each turn takes approximately a single second although I have to admit that I'm not concerned with timekeeping while spinning. But yes, that is approximately 360 degrees and 350' height loss per second, give or take. We don't initiate spins at less than 3500' - five times what the BGA considers a safe height.

I agree with Bose-X and others who think that spinning was rightfully removed from the PPL syllabus. You don't spin in straight and level flight, and the only time when you would have a chance of a spin is when mishandling the turn to final, where you have insufficient height to recover in any case. Stall/spin awareness is much, much more important. But I also do like Skylarks instructor, who demonstrates (not teaches) 10 minutes of aerobatics somewhere during the course.

At my club we have a special "Unusual Attitudes" day, twice a year, where PPL students and post-PPL pilots go up with an experienced instructor/coach, in an aerobatics plane, to demonstrate and experience spins, accellerated and full power stalls and a few other edge-of-the envelope things, plus some basic aerobatics manoevers. It was this day that got me hooked on aerobatics. But more importantly, it gave me a new appreciation for the dangers of the turn-to-final with too little speed.

[mary meagher]

Backpacker, just a small correction; the British Gliding Association NO LONGER REQUIRES as part of the syllabus "brief spins where the ground is noticably close"

"A very experienced instructor flying a docile two seater in ideal conditions may be prepared to initiate a brief spin from...(.less than l,000). A less docile two seater with a less experienced instructor, or less than ideal conditions, should raise the minimum height considerably."

It is therefore left to the discretion of the very experienced instructor!

You rightly remind us that spins are much more exciting in stubby wings.
Didn't we read a few months back about a Currie Wot, or some such, that did 23 spins before the pilot worked out a flat spin recovery......very very close to the ground........

And of course you all remember the old story about the first pilot who ever recovered from a stall . . . .

[rusty sparrow]

700' glider spins

Mary

I had to do a 700' spin recovery in a K13 when returning to gliding after a break of around 20 years. I believe that I pulled out of the recovery dive at around 450' - the ground looked very close. I used to regularly spin the old Swallow at Southdown Gliding Club - once did about six sucsessive spins down from 7000'. I'm happy with spinning.

But I'm not an instructor and the guy in the K13 doing my check flight (not at Southdown, but an an inferior club some miles north) hadn't flown with me before and I think that he took a stupid risk. Don't know what he was trying to prove! .

[Mark1234]

I can't remember in the last 3000hrs flying along straight and level and the aircraft suddenly departing into a spin.

Being arguamentative, how many engine failures in that time? I'd suspect not many, yet we learn about those too...

In many ways I completely agree with you, (and yes you're far more experienced than I) however, much as I think new drivers should get put on a skidpan, if only to scare themselves into a bit of common sense (I sure needed it), I think new pilots should have a similar experience.

First spin, first aerobatic manouvers, your mind is tripping out about what the view's doing outside - with a little familiarity we get over that and the thinking brain is freed to be a little more analytical - we can function as PIC again. To the average PPL a 60degree bank is an 'unusual attitude', that can't be healthy - if anything odd does happen the freak-out factor is high. Personally I recommend an aeros course to anyone who'll listen, (post PPL).

Truth is you shouldn't get into a spin accidentally. Truth is also that these things don't happen straight and level. Most likely reasons are excess testosterone (I believe you can self-teach aeros uk side?) OR distraction - high stress, head in, you may well miss the signs. Pretty sure the moment the bottom drops from your world and everything starts to rotate you'll snap back to. Yes if it happens at low level you're dead, but..

My pet beef is that in all of these avoidance exercises you know what you're expecting to avoid. How effective will you be in the real world?

[IFMU]

Originally Posted by rauxaman

There is a lot of spinning instruction with gliders including experience of a spin and recovery at circuit height (700ft) on downwind leg

R

Here in the states us regular mortals are supposed to do acro at 1500 AGL and higher. I prefer much higher. On my private pilot glider checkride, the examiner asked me to do a spin entry, we were about 1600 AGL. So, I started doing clearing turns, and just before doing the deed, he says "IFMU, what is the minimum height we can do this?" to which I replied 1500 feet. He asks "So you think you can complete this before we bust through 1500 feet?" The lesson there was not so much about spinning, but about not letting authority talk you into doing something stupid.

Spin on the downwind leg, recover at 700'? That's nuts!

-- IFMU

PS I did spins as part of my private pilot in power and never regretted it! The old PA12 spun nicely.

[421dog]

I'd just like to humbly point out to all of you glider jocks that "flying the box" so that I could drive the crappy old 182 tow plane 25 years ago was a heck of a lot more challenging than any spin recovery (including some VERY interesting times in S2's and Extras) I have ever needed to perform. That being said, maybe the very presence (and necessity) of the piece of yarn taped to the canopy makes you inherently better equipped to deal with these sorts of difficulties. On the other hand, we mere mortals (and no, I am not possessed of a glider rating) who require internal combustion might just benefit from the extra hand holding to keep us out of trouble.

[S-Works]

In many ways I completely agree with you, (and yes you're far more experienced than I) however, much as I think new drivers should get put on a skidpan, if only to scare themselves into a bit of common sense (I sure needed it), I think new pilots should have a similar experience.

I don't believe in using fear as an educational tool.

[Skylark58]

Whether we are talking about skid training in a car or spin training in an aircraft, it takes a amount of training before you remove the initial surprised reaction and the recovery becomes instinctive.

Is there a parallel with instrument flying, i.e rather than teach "don't go in a cloud or you will lose control and die" we teach at least how to maintain control and regain VMC?

[S-Works]

Whether we are talking about skid training in a car or spin training in an aircraft, it takes a amount of training before you remove the initial surprised reaction and the recovery becomes instinctive.

Indeed. But as many of the average spam cans are not cleared for spinning it is a bit of a moot point. I still maintain it is better to teach to avoid the spin rather than recovery from it. If you learn the signs, symptoms and causes of a spin you should never need to recover from one as you will learn to fly on the correct side of the envelope.

This then puts spinning where it should be in the realms of thrill seeking and advanced handling.

I am not anti-spinning at all. I rather like spinning and the thrill it gives me. But as an Instructor I do not think it has a place in modern basic instruction.

[Mark1234]

Ok, so that didn't read quite as it did in my head - not seriously advocating fear as a training tool. I stand by my other points however.

I know the Pa28 is spinnable in the utility category - Ok, it's not as BackPacker pointed out. Check before posting...

[BackPacker]

I know the Pa28 is spinnable in the utility category; suspect the 172,150/2 also,

As far as I know, all those types are placarded "intentional spins prohibited" - even in the U cat. The only exception being the 150/152 Aerobat.

Doesn't mean they won't spin when mishandled, if that's what you mean though.

[Mark1234]

That wasn't what I meant, no. Just checked the POH, I stand corrected. Ah well, I *still* think not training these things is dumbing down, but there we go.

[Skylark58]

As far as I know, all those types are placarded "intentional spins prohibited" - even in the U cat. The only exception being the 150/152 Aerobat.


Even the non Aerobat150/152 is cleared for spinning, so is the 172 as long as they are loaded within Utility Cat limits. All are +4/-1.76g. The Aerobat is+6/-3g

[n5296s]

I'm very happy to have had (plenty of) spin training. Maybe it's true that a fully developed spin on turn-to-final is going to kill you no matter what, but if you've got some spin experience then you will catch it long before it gets that far. If not, maybe you don't realise what's happening and don't have the instinct to kick opposite rudder, and you're a lawn dart before you even realise what has happened.

(The Pitts will do a one-turn spin and full recovery in less than 500' so at least in theory you could recover from a turn-to-final spin, though for some reason I've never tried it).

I don't think it should be part of the PPL, but I do think it should be considered more-or-less mandatory somewhere around 200 hours when a pilot has reached a certain comfort level with the normal handling of the plane.

(I'm pretty sure my aerobatics training saved my life when I hit a violent rotor system flying over mountains. MAYBE I'd have recovered without it, but I'm not at all sure).

n5296s

[S-Works]

Even the non Aerobat150/152 is cleared for spinning, so is the 172 as long as they are loaded within Utility Cat limits. All are +4/-1.76g. The Aerobat is+6/-3g

Nope, my 172 FR172K is clearly placarded and stated in the manual as not permitted for intentional spinning.

Many of the common types in the GA fleet are not cleared for spinning either.

This is the point I have been trying to make, spinning is an exercise that is pointless to teach to the general spam can flyers. Avoidance is a much better thing to teach and thankfully those who make the rules world wide seem to agree for a change.

Just because we had to do it and it 'separated the men from the boys' does not make it a good thing. Personally I think it is one of the few steps forward displayed by regulators who are normally backwards thinking.