LAA/PFA. Disorganised?
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Flintstone, in general the LAA is a good organisation, you don't see the CAA being defended so strongly, do you ! ? The main reason for it is to make flying afforable, and it is not run totally on a shoe string and has a large office and staff like any other organisation. In terms of direction, well the CAA are giving us a lot more responsibility in Light aircraft terms, new types etc, the magazine is first rate, some things left to sort are the image, web PR etc and the rally. The web etc needs money and time, and with thousands of members and planes to look after, the money has to be allocated sensibley. This does not mean that the public face has been ignored, look at last years LAA event at Old Warden,politicians, press etc....Rome can not be built in a day and technology changes every five minutes !!
Don't take any thing too personally after all this is PPRune and sharp responses go with the territory ! shame you missed the Issacs Fury, lovely little plane good luck with your shearch.
Don't take any thing too personally after all this is PPRune and sharp responses go with the territory ! shame you missed the Issacs Fury, lovely little plane good luck with your shearch.
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To me, the LAA is a bit of a Curate's Egg.
There are aspects of it that are superb - I like the relaxed environment, I like the camaraderie, the rapid response from other members when questions or help is asked for on the BB.
There are many other resources out on the web if you need specific information - information which is outside of the remit of the LAA.
One of the frustrations is the inability to build and operate designs how they were originally designed, warts and all - i.e. the lack of an Experimental category, however that may be one of the benefits of EASA as that may come in in the near future.
On balance, at present, the LAA offers a simple, effective and economical way of safely operating homebuilt and vintage types in the UK.
If you want a full service maintenance backup, stay with a C of A type, however, over the course of 10 years or more of owning and operating several C of A aeroplanes, they had more hidden horrors due to M3 maintenance than ANY permit aeroplane I have owned. The LAA system generally ensures better and more conscientious maintenance than a bonus driven, time important, very expensive licensed system.
If you want to own and operate an interesting aeroplane, meet interesting and - er - unique characters and get involved, forget the apparent shortcomings of the LAA, if not............
Enjoy you Challenger and get a Cirrus
There are aspects of it that are superb - I like the relaxed environment, I like the camaraderie, the rapid response from other members when questions or help is asked for on the BB.
There are many other resources out on the web if you need specific information - information which is outside of the remit of the LAA.
One of the frustrations is the inability to build and operate designs how they were originally designed, warts and all - i.e. the lack of an Experimental category, however that may be one of the benefits of EASA as that may come in in the near future.
On balance, at present, the LAA offers a simple, effective and economical way of safely operating homebuilt and vintage types in the UK.
If you want a full service maintenance backup, stay with a C of A type, however, over the course of 10 years or more of owning and operating several C of A aeroplanes, they had more hidden horrors due to M3 maintenance than ANY permit aeroplane I have owned. The LAA system generally ensures better and more conscientious maintenance than a bonus driven, time important, very expensive licensed system.
If you want to own and operate an interesting aeroplane, meet interesting and - er - unique characters and get involved, forget the apparent shortcomings of the LAA, if not............
Enjoy you Challenger and get a Cirrus
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will, Javelin. Mike and others. Thanks for the helpful repsonses. I'd hoped the LAA to be as you describe it so perhaps another crack at a strut night is on the cards.
In the meantime if you hear of anything for sale I'm all ears...............
Edit: Just checked the LAA site and see the April Classifieds have been posted up. Off for a look, fingers crossed.
Second Edit: The link doesn't work!! I'm saying nuffin.
In the meantime if you hear of anything for sale I'm all ears...............
Edit: Just checked the LAA site and see the April Classifieds have been posted up. Off for a look, fingers crossed.
Second Edit: The link doesn't work!! I'm saying nuffin.
Last edited by Flintstone; 7th Apr 2009 at 08:58.
Mr. Flintstone(ey hearted).
You've obviously got too much time to spare & thus WHINGE, so are either unemployed & angry, or in a cushy little number and have no mercy for others.
I don't think we & thus the LAA need the likes of you that badly.
p.s. And if you're so knowledgable re web design they do need volunteers to sort it out.
mikehallam.
You've obviously got too much time to spare & thus WHINGE, so are either unemployed & angry, or in a cushy little number and have no mercy for others.
I don't think we & thus the LAA need the likes of you that badly.
p.s. And if you're so knowledgable re web design they do need volunteers to sort it out.
mikehallam.
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Originally Posted by mikehallam
I don't think we & thus the LAA need the likes of you that badly.
rohmer. So I saw. Also noted that the April ads appeared soon after this thread so somebody is listening. Maybe there's hope after all.
Last edited by Flintstone; 7th Apr 2009 at 09:49.
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Following up on the golf club analogy.
The LAA is like the golf club that has a dirt car park and an old but comfortable wooden clubhouse. The golf course is immaculate and a great place to learn new skills with members who are prepared to spend their time helping you because they love their golf. Its run by the members for the members.
Much rather this than some modern chrome and brick ediface with expensive dues, a so-so course and every little thing being charged at a huge rate to pay for the upkeep of the whole thing because its all a commercial concern.
I like the LAA as it is... and long may it stay this way. I am able to find all I need on the LAA website so no need to raise my subscription to improve it with Flash animations etc etc.
On the other hand, if you'd like to join and offer your services to help improve something then we'll all welcome you.
ZA
The LAA is like the golf club that has a dirt car park and an old but comfortable wooden clubhouse. The golf course is immaculate and a great place to learn new skills with members who are prepared to spend their time helping you because they love their golf. Its run by the members for the members.
Much rather this than some modern chrome and brick ediface with expensive dues, a so-so course and every little thing being charged at a huge rate to pay for the upkeep of the whole thing because its all a commercial concern.
I like the LAA as it is... and long may it stay this way. I am able to find all I need on the LAA website so no need to raise my subscription to improve it with Flash animations etc etc.
On the other hand, if you'd like to join and offer your services to help improve something then we'll all welcome you.
ZA
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I have been a LAA member for years (actually PFA 
) before that. It is only in the last 5 years I have owned and operated a LAA type, this association has allowed and permitted me an avenue to exercise the privileges of flight in an affordable fashion in this time, so much so that I fly from my home field in North West Ireland to all over the UK and Ireland and indeed to Europe, accumulate well in excess of 250 flying hours per year at a mere fraction of the cost of a C of A type, this has to be good news for the likes of me who cannot afford the "traditional" route. I am in no way interested in circuit bashing in an aircraft burning fuel like it is going out of fashion just to keep a license current, rather take in a flight of 1000NM, VFR all the way at a cost that I can afford.
So to answer your question ! , no the LAA is not disorganised at all, it is a company that is run for its members unlike a government body that swallows up money that nobody gives a damn about.
So if like me you want to fly at an affordable cost then the LAA is the avenue that will allow this to happen, if not then the avenue of a share in a C of A aircraft may just be for you.
You earn your money, you spend it as you see fit, You and I may see it differently, does not mean that either of us is wrong.
Good luck in what you decide.
Jon
) before that. It is only in the last 5 years I have owned and operated a LAA type, this association has allowed and permitted me an avenue to exercise the privileges of flight in an affordable fashion in this time, so much so that I fly from my home field in North West Ireland to all over the UK and Ireland and indeed to Europe, accumulate well in excess of 250 flying hours per year at a mere fraction of the cost of a C of A type, this has to be good news for the likes of me who cannot afford the "traditional" route. I am in no way interested in circuit bashing in an aircraft burning fuel like it is going out of fashion just to keep a license current, rather take in a flight of 1000NM, VFR all the way at a cost that I can afford.So to answer your question ! , no the LAA is not disorganised at all, it is a company that is run for its members unlike a government body that swallows up money that nobody gives a damn about.
So if like me you want to fly at an affordable cost then the LAA is the avenue that will allow this to happen, if not then the avenue of a share in a C of A aircraft may just be for you.
You earn your money, you spend it as you see fit, You and I may see it differently, does not mean that either of us is wrong.
Good luck in what you decide.
Jon
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Mr. Flintstone(ey hearted).
You've obviously got too much time to spare & thus WHINGE, so are either unemployed & angry, or in a cushy little number and have no mercy for others.
I don't think we & thus the LAA need the likes of you that badly.
p.s. And if you're so knowledgable re web design they do need volunteers to sort it out.
mikehallam.(Quote)
Sorry, but that is not really on, is it?
No wonder the poor sod is complaining about attitude.
No doubt there are Struts that have old easy chairs outside the "dispersal" hut / dirt carpark thing. At the same time some will be run by "Jobsworth" types intent on empire building. Take yr pick.
By & large the LAA is an excellent concept & as has been said, the engineering side works perfectly, which is all that really matters.
My advice would be, join, find your aircraft, find your inspector, fly, & see what else it has that fits you.
PS can someone tell me how to do the "quote" thing properly?
You've obviously got too much time to spare & thus WHINGE, so are either unemployed & angry, or in a cushy little number and have no mercy for others.
I don't think we & thus the LAA need the likes of you that badly.
p.s. And if you're so knowledgable re web design they do need volunteers to sort it out.
mikehallam.(Quote)
Sorry, but that is not really on, is it?
No wonder the poor sod is complaining about attitude.
No doubt there are Struts that have old easy chairs outside the "dispersal" hut / dirt carpark thing. At the same time some will be run by "Jobsworth" types intent on empire building. Take yr pick.
By & large the LAA is an excellent concept & as has been said, the engineering side works perfectly, which is all that really matters.
My advice would be, join, find your aircraft, find your inspector, fly, & see what else it has that fits you.
PS can someone tell me how to do the "quote" thing properly?
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Flintstone, we appear to have got of on the wrong foot and I was wrong to make assumptions for which I apologise
.
Not that its any defence on my part, but the LAA comes in for a lot of undeserved critism,primarily from people that think of it as an alternative to the CAA or AOPA, which it is not.
The LAA is NOT a commercial organisation, it is an association owned by the members for the members benefit and as such is not beholding to all and sundry . It is only right that to benefit one should be a member,especially as it costs so little to join,if after a year you find no benefit I would not expect you to renew.
However many others do benefit by default because the LAA does a huge amount of work behind the scenes on airways easa etc. In fact they do as much as AOPA (some would say more).
Are the LAA perfect? no
Are they above average/ average?....harder to answer because there is no direct comparison.
CAA administer airworthiness but don't lobby for us (and they seem hell bent on bankrupting us all)
AOPA...good on lobbying etc but no use in terms of certifying aircraft
EAA.. excellent organisation but not recognised over here...
By default that leaves only the LAA .
The trouble is you really have to join before you realise the benefits and I concede that is a perceived problem by most .Couple that with the fact that forums like this are full of so called experts on anything and they all know more/better than you and you can see (maybe) why I get so pi***d!
The offer of help still stands!
.Not that its any defence on my part, but the LAA comes in for a lot of undeserved critism,primarily from people that think of it as an alternative to the CAA or AOPA, which it is not.
The LAA is NOT a commercial organisation, it is an association owned by the members for the members benefit and as such is not beholding to all and sundry . It is only right that to benefit one should be a member,especially as it costs so little to join,if after a year you find no benefit I would not expect you to renew.
However many others do benefit by default because the LAA does a huge amount of work behind the scenes on airways easa etc. In fact they do as much as AOPA (some would say more).
Are the LAA perfect? no
Are they above average/ average?....harder to answer because there is no direct comparison.
CAA administer airworthiness but don't lobby for us (and they seem hell bent on bankrupting us all)
AOPA...good on lobbying etc but no use in terms of certifying aircraft
EAA.. excellent organisation but not recognised over here...
By default that leaves only the LAA .
The trouble is you really have to join before you realise the benefits and I concede that is a perceived problem by most .Couple that with the fact that forums like this are full of so called experts on anything and they all know more/better than you and you can see (maybe) why I get so pi***d!
The offer of help still stands!
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Crash one, thanks for the sympathy vote. All warm and fuzzy now. Sending you a PM explaining the quote function.
hatzflyer. Meh, nobody died and there's always room (both ways) to take a step back and start again. I'd obviously no idea of the history of complaints but if the LAA is anything like other hobby clubs I should have guessed. Having been membership secretary and treasurer of the British Association Of Somethingorother I've seen it all before. Once I've whittled my questions down to a couple of thousand I'd like to drop you a PM.
One last request. Could someone do something with whatever thread was started on the LAA forum please? The hate mail is overloading my inbox.
Ta.
hatzflyer. Meh, nobody died and there's always room (both ways) to take a step back and start again. I'd obviously no idea of the history of complaints but if the LAA is anything like other hobby clubs I should have guessed. Having been membership secretary and treasurer of the British Association Of Somethingorother I've seen it all before. Once I've whittled my questions down to a couple of thousand I'd like to drop you a PM.
One last request. Could someone do something with whatever thread was started on the LAA forum please? The hate mail is overloading my inbox.
Ta.
One last request. Could someone do something with whatever thread was started on the LAA forum please? The hate mail is overloading my inbox.
G
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I have some sympathy with Mr. flintstone.....I, too "ran the figures" around the time the PFA spent a lot of dosh "rebranding to "LAA" (as in laa laa land, anyone? 
)
I had known of the PFA for years, the name said what it did, on the tin. IMHO, that could have been better directedcash and energy....but i'm not a "marketing man" "growing the brand"
Yes, I thought the website a bit shambolic, non-intuitive, disjointed.
BUT that's the way things are. I am a member of a professional organisation (fish-fryers! ) yes, we suffer the same problems.
many non-members directly benefit from the organisation's representation, but won't join as they don't see anything "in it for me"
most think that their membership fees "should" buy a totally unrealistic level of services.
most members will NOT volunteer to put in anything other than their "subs".
the altruistic volunteer committee members (that's me!) kick crap uphill, trying to get feedback from members, when we DO organise something, there's poor support and masses of lame excuses.
Branch meetings (like Struts) are often poorly attended, the whingers complain about "the old school" or "clique" attempting to run things......but then don't volunteer to take on a role where thay could have positive influence.
Thus we have the situation where a national organisation, relying heavily on unpaid, volunteer officers, becomes stuck between a rock and a hard place........luckily, we found a go-ahead, strong businessman who was prepared to put something back into the organisation he believes in.
perhaps the LAA has similar problems?
Flintstone. Don't expect to be "welcomed with open arms"..... your first experience suggests that was your expectation,- well, this may surprise you, but other big, grown men are equally shy of strangers as you were
Whilst you stood round for half an hour thinking "load of stuck-up, cliquey sods, don't want to know me"......they were thinking
" arrogant newbie thinks he's too good for us, standoffish bugger hasn't said a word to a soul"
SO! When you give it another go, put on a smile, walk up to a group , extend your hand to the noisiest one and introduce yourself," Hi, I'm Flintstone, new around here, can any of you tell me who runs this Strut"
I'm sure that if YOU are prepared to "break the ice" in such a fashion, you'll be well rewarded.
Even now, I find it hard to walk up to a stranger , introduce myself and enquire about the "newbie's" interest in the trade......but I've made several good friends as a result
)I had known of the PFA for years, the name said what it did, on the tin. IMHO, that could have been better directedcash and energy....but i'm not a "marketing man" "growing the brand"
Yes, I thought the website a bit shambolic, non-intuitive, disjointed.
BUT that's the way things are. I am a member of a professional organisation (fish-fryers! ) yes, we suffer the same problems.
many non-members directly benefit from the organisation's representation, but won't join as they don't see anything "in it for me"
most think that their membership fees "should" buy a totally unrealistic level of services.
most members will NOT volunteer to put in anything other than their "subs".
the altruistic volunteer committee members (that's me!) kick crap uphill, trying to get feedback from members, when we DO organise something, there's poor support and masses of lame excuses.
Branch meetings (like Struts) are often poorly attended, the whingers complain about "the old school" or "clique" attempting to run things......but then don't volunteer to take on a role where thay could have positive influence.
Thus we have the situation where a national organisation, relying heavily on unpaid, volunteer officers, becomes stuck between a rock and a hard place........luckily, we found a go-ahead, strong businessman who was prepared to put something back into the organisation he believes in.
perhaps the LAA has similar problems?
Flintstone. Don't expect to be "welcomed with open arms"..... your first experience suggests that was your expectation,- well, this may surprise you, but other big, grown men are equally shy of strangers as you were
Whilst you stood round for half an hour thinking "load of stuck-up, cliquey sods, don't want to know me"......they were thinking" arrogant newbie thinks he's too good for us, standoffish bugger hasn't said a word to a soul"
SO! When you give it another go, put on a smile, walk up to a group , extend your hand to the noisiest one and introduce yourself," Hi, I'm Flintstone, new around here, can any of you tell me who runs this Strut"
I'm sure that if YOU are prepared to "break the ice" in such a fashion, you'll be well rewarded.
Even now, I find it hard to walk up to a stranger , introduce myself and enquire about the "newbie's" interest in the trade......but I've made several good friends as a result
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Steve, thanks for the tips but I tried that at the time. I'm no shrinking violet however after the third rebuff realised I was getting nowhere. One person even asked who'd invited me as if membership were by recommendation only. I thought I'd mistakenly gatecrashed the Freemasons.
Ah well. Maybe I'll conduct a coup on the Hertfordshire strut, especially if they're trying to reform. Now is when they'll be at their weakest and I could make a bid for control, build my own website, take over and rule the world by christmas. People with names rhyming with mikehallam need not apply, they're already blackballed
Oh, Steve. Just one question if you don't mind. How come saveloy skins don't give that nice crack when you bite through them any more?
Ah well. Maybe I'll conduct a coup on the Hertfordshire strut, especially if they're trying to reform. Now is when they'll be at their weakest and I could make a bid for control, build my own website, take over and rule the world by christmas. People with names rhyming with mikehallam need not apply, they're already blackballed
Oh, Steve. Just one question if you don't mind. How come saveloy skins don't give that nice crack when you bite through them any more?
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Ah! Saveloys! It's many years and a distant memory when I last had a "Sav"....(Us northerners eat jumbo Sausages )
I'd suspect the formulation of the skin has been modified either to keep costs down, improve split-resistance of mollify the elf and safety mob.
Another possibility is that they're kept in a humidified hot-box and thus don't dry to that satisfying crispness.
you didn't say that you'd had 3 rebuffs
I think Groucho Marx nailed that,succinctly.
"I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have ME as a member"
yea, taking over a moribund Strut seems a good idea!-perhaps you could name it the"Not Available Always, " Strut....slogan (thumb to nose and wiggling fingers) "Naa Naaa Na Naa Naaa
They sound like a load of "up their own ar5e" types, where you went- their loss!-good luck in your endeavours, and remember tat it's easier to change things from the inside.-A live-wire will attract others to displace dead wood and rejuvinate the organisation.
It's many years and a distant memory when I last had a "Sav"....(Us northerners eat jumbo Sausages )I'd suspect the formulation of the skin has been modified either to keep costs down, improve split-resistance of mollify the elf and safety mob.
Another possibility is that they're kept in a humidified hot-box and thus don't dry to that satisfying crispness.
you didn't say that you'd had 3 rebuffs
I think Groucho Marx nailed that,succinctly."I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have ME as a member"
yea, taking over a moribund Strut seems a good idea!-perhaps you could name it the"Not Available Always, " Strut....slogan (thumb to nose and wiggling fingers) "Naa Naaa Na Naa Naaa
They sound like a load of "up their own ar5e" types, where you went- their loss!-good luck in your endeavours, and remember tat it's easier to change things from the inside.-A live-wire will attract others to displace dead wood and rejuvinate the organisation.
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Mike, you're exactly the person we need to be the welcoming face of the LAA and spearhead a new membership drive.
Did you ever consider a career in the Diplomatic Corps perchance?
Did you ever consider a career in the Diplomatic Corps perchance?