Witness Statement
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: France
There has been research over the years about this...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
From: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Google "Elizabeth Loftus" for some eye opening stuff
Some have suggested that all witnesses statements should be recorded rather than written. Needless to say this was not attractive to the government, who worried about the cost.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: France
...induced infant memories...
Like I said: something happens; you think you have seen something else and then the police write what they wished you had seen.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
Many years ago, pre-CPS, I got stitched up by a copper who came in to my office alleging that some 6 months previously my car (a pool car) was seen within the confines of a pelican crossing. I admitted that I was one of the drivers but also said there were other drivers. No record was available of who had the car on the day. Nobpdy knew of the offence or of the ticket allegedly attached the windscreen.
He wrote up a statement, signed by himself, that I admitted to parking there on the day in question.
The solicitor, seeing this and a statement from a traffic warden confirming the vehicle etc, told me there is no point in contesting it, so I didn't. These days, I would no matter what it cost because it stank.
So I think the changes over the years were for the better. The police used to be able to totally take the micky, especially on offences where no independent evidence was needed for a conviction or where the solicitor was likely to advise a G plea just to keep life simple for all - basically all motoring offences.
He wrote up a statement, signed by himself, that I admitted to parking there on the day in question.
The solicitor, seeing this and a statement from a traffic warden confirming the vehicle etc, told me there is no point in contesting it, so I didn't. These days, I would no matter what it cost because it stank.
So I think the changes over the years were for the better. The police used to be able to totally take the micky, especially on offences where no independent evidence was needed for a conviction or where the solicitor was likely to advise a G plea just to keep life simple for all - basically all motoring offences.
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 831
Likes: 0
From: North of South
IO man , Pre CPS thats is at least early 70's isnt it , things have changed dramatically since then , any copper who served during the seventies will tell you that Life on Mars was a pretty accurate reflection of police work back in the day , most will argue that is was a much better system indeed.
Unfortunately in this modern age this is the system we have and until something better comes along we are stuck with it .
The whole statement taking process relies heavily on good deal of integrity from both parties concerned . As has been argued if the police take it some may say it will be biased toward what the police wish to hear , likewise if the defence take it it will biased thus .
It was hypothesised by Mr F, Abound that if statements were accurate refelections no cross examinataion would be necessary , in this modern age we have sych things as video interviews that are as accurate a representation as you can get , however they are still subject to cross exams .
The guilt or innocence of a person in a case in this country mostly comes down to a decent brief . It matters not one jot what the statement says or the accuracy of it , the advocate will put an already nervous person on the back foot right from the off and use clever word play to try and get them to say what he wishes to hear , and mostly it works , even police officers who have been there a hundred times can still be tongue tied , this does not lower the integrity of the evidence being given but makes out that it could mean something else .
I have seen horrendous offences commited on CCTV and offenders have gotten off due to clever barristers who make a previously horrified jury think twice about what they have seen . If you doubt what I say go and have a sit in a crown court during a good trial , a good public order or S18 assault should do it , it almost appears like it shouldnt be allowed .
Such is life and we unfortunately have to live with it Remember in the UK the law protects the guilty and not the innocent law abiding citizen .
Unfortunately in this modern age this is the system we have and until something better comes along we are stuck with it .
The whole statement taking process relies heavily on good deal of integrity from both parties concerned . As has been argued if the police take it some may say it will be biased toward what the police wish to hear , likewise if the defence take it it will biased thus .
It was hypothesised by Mr F, Abound that if statements were accurate refelections no cross examinataion would be necessary , in this modern age we have sych things as video interviews that are as accurate a representation as you can get , however they are still subject to cross exams .
The guilt or innocence of a person in a case in this country mostly comes down to a decent brief . It matters not one jot what the statement says or the accuracy of it , the advocate will put an already nervous person on the back foot right from the off and use clever word play to try and get them to say what he wishes to hear , and mostly it works , even police officers who have been there a hundred times can still be tongue tied , this does not lower the integrity of the evidence being given but makes out that it could mean something else .
I have seen horrendous offences commited on CCTV and offenders have gotten off due to clever barristers who make a previously horrified jury think twice about what they have seen . If you doubt what I say go and have a sit in a crown court during a good trial , a good public order or S18 assault should do it , it almost appears like it shouldnt be allowed .
Such is life and we unfortunately have to live with it Remember in the UK the law protects the guilty and not the innocent law abiding citizen .
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
Late 70s, and another hilarious (motoring) one in 85.
I have no "experience" since those days but my guess is that motorists used to routinely get fixed up and perhaps still do because few of them want to put much money into avoiding 3-5 points, but some serious offenders get off because they get a good barrister on legal aid.
I have no "experience" since those days but my guess is that motorists used to routinely get fixed up and perhaps still do because few of them want to put much money into avoiding 3-5 points, but some serious offenders get off because they get a good barrister on legal aid.
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 831
Likes: 0
From: North of South
If I could just try and instill abit of confidence in the masses although it aint realitically going to happen . I was a Road Policing (Fancy word for Traffic) cop for many many years . Neither myself nor anyone I ever worked with ever gave a ticket for speeding to someone who wasnt . Youve all driven on the motorway and youve seen how folk drive , why would a copper really want to stop you for speeding if you werent ??????
Obviously every job has its assholes and the cops sometimes dont do themselves any favours , ie , ticketing people eating butties parked at traffic lights , albeit it is still an offence common sense and a sense of decency and purpose should stop this in its tracks , however it doesnt always wrok like that. Dont tar the whole lot with the same brush .
Bobbies dont get extra pay , promotion or slap on the back for doing many many tickets and the money does not go to the police it goes to the govt .
Yes some forces give quotas again performance indictors dictated by you know who , but they are so low any officer could effectively fill their quota in the space of and hour .
But again you may well meet a jobsworth ******** , especially if you drive north of south wales and west of cheshire , ahh Brunstrom theres a switched on guy.
And for the record I never gave a single speeding ticket aside from the two I did when being trained to do em , and I am very proud of that. I did however put away 14 persons who had killed others as a result of their drinking and drug induced erratic driving , despite , and this brings me back to the pioint of the thread , clever barristers trying to turn the juries mind toward reasonable doubt , insinuating that because the Forensic gadgie who analysed the blood sample had been out for a meal on the staurday night prior to testing that he himself was unfit , desperate but they will try anything.
Rant over and IO I apologise for the failings of my 1970's cohorts
Obviously every job has its assholes and the cops sometimes dont do themselves any favours , ie , ticketing people eating butties parked at traffic lights , albeit it is still an offence common sense and a sense of decency and purpose should stop this in its tracks , however it doesnt always wrok like that. Dont tar the whole lot with the same brush .
Bobbies dont get extra pay , promotion or slap on the back for doing many many tickets and the money does not go to the police it goes to the govt .
Yes some forces give quotas again performance indictors dictated by you know who , but they are so low any officer could effectively fill their quota in the space of and hour .
But again you may well meet a jobsworth ******** , especially if you drive north of south wales and west of cheshire , ahh Brunstrom theres a switched on guy.
And for the record I never gave a single speeding ticket aside from the two I did when being trained to do em , and I am very proud of that. I did however put away 14 persons who had killed others as a result of their drinking and drug induced erratic driving , despite , and this brings me back to the pioint of the thread , clever barristers trying to turn the juries mind toward reasonable doubt , insinuating that because the Forensic gadgie who analysed the blood sample had been out for a meal on the staurday night prior to testing that he himself was unfit , desperate but they will try anything.
Rant over and IO I apologise for the failings of my 1970's cohorts
Guest
Posts: n/a
Talking of hilarious motoring incidents, I got done for speeding in Swindon.
The female PC wrote the wrong model of car and her handwriting on the ticket was so cr*p that the reg number was ambiguous.
So I went to court and was asked 'were you the driver of a VW Golf car index number 6XXX XXX?
'No I answered, I was the driver of a VW Passat car index number GXXX XXX.'
Not surprisingly,the case was dismissed and the police had to pay my costs :-)
The female PC wrote the wrong model of car and her handwriting on the ticket was so cr*p that the reg number was ambiguous.
So I went to court and was asked 'were you the driver of a VW Golf car index number 6XXX XXX?
'No I answered, I was the driver of a VW Passat car index number GXXX XXX.'
Not surprisingly,the case was dismissed and the police had to pay my costs :-)
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 927
Likes: 1
From: Sth Bucks UK
MDP
I could write a book on my experiences with Plod, 99% of it bad.
Traffic cops get it in the neck most because that's most people's point of contact, and offences are often considered by the perp to be insignificant.
Most of my negative experiences have been at the hands of plain old bobbies who are on a power trip.
EG:
Driving out of London at 11PM on a Saturday night on the A40, a three lane carriageway.
Two young bobbies in a marked Fiesta are driving along at exactly 40mph (the speed limit) in the middle lane and a nice long queue of traffic is building steadily behind them.
I'm in the outside lane with my cruise control set at approx 44mph.
I elect to continue at this speed and dare to overtake the Fiesta.
This does not go down well with the delicate egos of the two young occupants, who immediately employ questionable driving standards and pull me over.
"Do you know why you've been stopped?"
"I've no idea!"
"Because you were doing 55mph in a 40mph speed limit"
"That's bollocks Mate!"
"Well I was doing 50 and you went past me"
"Why were you doing that? The speed limit down here is 40mph"
"Under the power vested in me by government statute I am entitled to break the speed limit"
"You are entitled to brake the speed limit when attending an emergency, and since you've got time to stop me at this particularly busy hour and fabricate charges of speeding I suggest that you're not attending an emergency"
A lengthy discussion ensued and I was eventually allowed to continue my journey, but this episode perfectly illustrates why the relationship between the police and the public is a poor one.
As I said, I could go on and on about it........
However, it can be summed up with one simple question:
What have the police ever done for us?
I could write a book on my experiences with Plod, 99% of it bad.
Traffic cops get it in the neck most because that's most people's point of contact, and offences are often considered by the perp to be insignificant.
Most of my negative experiences have been at the hands of plain old bobbies who are on a power trip.
EG:
Driving out of London at 11PM on a Saturday night on the A40, a three lane carriageway.
Two young bobbies in a marked Fiesta are driving along at exactly 40mph (the speed limit) in the middle lane and a nice long queue of traffic is building steadily behind them.
I'm in the outside lane with my cruise control set at approx 44mph.
I elect to continue at this speed and dare to overtake the Fiesta.
This does not go down well with the delicate egos of the two young occupants, who immediately employ questionable driving standards and pull me over.
"Do you know why you've been stopped?"
"I've no idea!"
"Because you were doing 55mph in a 40mph speed limit"
"That's bollocks Mate!"
"Well I was doing 50 and you went past me"
"Why were you doing that? The speed limit down here is 40mph"
"Under the power vested in me by government statute I am entitled to break the speed limit"
"You are entitled to brake the speed limit when attending an emergency, and since you've got time to stop me at this particularly busy hour and fabricate charges of speeding I suggest that you're not attending an emergency"
A lengthy discussion ensued and I was eventually allowed to continue my journey, but this episode perfectly illustrates why the relationship between the police and the public is a poor one.
As I said, I could go on and on about it........
However, it can be summed up with one simple question:
What have the police ever done for us?
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 831
Likes: 0
From: North of South
Aha SARM I have missed our pythonesque jolly caped banterings .
You hit the nail on the head , the main problem with the job today is the young uns , It is full of young dum and full of cxm bucks who like the uniform like the power and just want to be seen driving around in big fast cars . They have very little experience and arent really keen to get any , but who cares Im well out of it now whohoooooo.
But I do think you will find that the police not only provide security , but are more than responsible for public health, the aquaduct, roads etc etc
You hit the nail on the head , the main problem with the job today is the young uns , It is full of young dum and full of cxm bucks who like the uniform like the power and just want to be seen driving around in big fast cars . They have very little experience and arent really keen to get any , but who cares Im well out of it now whohoooooo.
But I do think you will find that the police not only provide security , but are more than responsible for public health, the aquaduct, roads etc etc
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
Ah yes, speeding tickets. I wonder if Northants constabulary still think they'll win an argument about speed measurement accuracy with a Flight Test Engineer. That was stressful, but I won! A sarcastic point on my part but it seems to me that policemen with a high level of skill in evidence acquisition tend to end up in CID, not in traffic.
On another point, I've been a witness quite a few (8ish) times in respect of various aviation legal cases - once a real witness (found guilty and deserved it for taxiing an aeroplane along the grass in a busy public park), and all other occasions an expert witness.
It's a fun process when you aren't personally affected and can set aside the fact that there's a human tragedy behind it and just think about the technical aspects. That said, it's also vitally important (and very difficult) as an expert witness to suspend any sympathy or antipathy for either side and just concentrate on telling "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". Insist on it - say everything you are aware of, and refuse to submit or sign a statement until you personally are absolutely happy it is complete and true. No other approach is honest to yourself or anybody else, or frankly more difficult - taking this route is painful and time consuming, and rarely makes you friends, but utterly necessary for your own conscience.
G
On another point, I've been a witness quite a few (8ish) times in respect of various aviation legal cases - once a real witness (found guilty and deserved it for taxiing an aeroplane along the grass in a busy public park), and all other occasions an expert witness.
It's a fun process when you aren't personally affected and can set aside the fact that there's a human tragedy behind it and just think about the technical aspects. That said, it's also vitally important (and very difficult) as an expert witness to suspend any sympathy or antipathy for either side and just concentrate on telling "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". Insist on it - say everything you are aware of, and refuse to submit or sign a statement until you personally are absolutely happy it is complete and true. No other approach is honest to yourself or anybody else, or frankly more difficult - taking this route is painful and time consuming, and rarely makes you friends, but utterly necessary for your own conscience.
G
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 831
Likes: 0
From: North of South
Genghis , how very dare you !!!
All police officers are trained in evidence acquisition , the ones who end up in CID are invariably the ones who like sitting in interview rooms collating and processing such evidence rather than actually being the ones who collect it in the first place .
What is the difference between investigating a murder and investigating a fatal car accident ??? Nil the procedures are the same . Only RTA's are investigated by Traffic officers .
Dear me Genghis Im hurt
Although dont tell anyone I was only in traffic by title I got merged froma vehicle crime unit , bazdads!!! I hate traffic too
All police officers are trained in evidence acquisition , the ones who end up in CID are invariably the ones who like sitting in interview rooms collating and processing such evidence rather than actually being the ones who collect it in the first place .
What is the difference between investigating a murder and investigating a fatal car accident ??? Nil the procedures are the same . Only RTA's are investigated by Traffic officers .
Dear me Genghis Im hurt
Although dont tell anyone I was only in traffic by title I got merged froma vehicle crime unit , bazdads!!! I hate traffic too
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
I think, maxdrypower, the problem with the traffic police used to be not that they framed up a totally innocent and unconnected individual who they randomly picked off the street, but rather they caught somebody who was not exactly an angel on the road, and set him up to look like a total maniac.
I was once caught doing a wheelspin. OK, that was "driving w/o due care, 2-5 points and in theory a ban". But by the time the solicitor phoned them to ask what they were going to do me for, they embellished it to 65mph in a 30. By the time it came to court (when they knew I was pleading G, to make the whole thing cheaper) they embellished it further to 95 in a 30 with the motorbike copper almost touching my bumper all the way. I was actually doing.... maybe 40 in a 30?
On another occassion I got done for 72 in a 40, when I was doing about 40-45 but was overtaken (dual carriageway) by a total loony who saw the speed trap and turned off down a side road and they couldn't be bothered to go after him (and told me so).
These are little isolated events and probably a miniscule % of total traffic incidents handled by the police (let's face it, you do have to miff them off badly for them to go to so much trouble) but I still remember them after 25-30 years, and tell everybody about them at every opportunity These kinds of incidents therefore tend to give the police a bad name.
I was once caught doing a wheelspin. OK, that was "driving w/o due care, 2-5 points and in theory a ban". But by the time the solicitor phoned them to ask what they were going to do me for, they embellished it to 65mph in a 30. By the time it came to court (when they knew I was pleading G, to make the whole thing cheaper) they embellished it further to 95 in a 30 with the motorbike copper almost touching my bumper all the way. I was actually doing.... maybe 40 in a 30?
On another occassion I got done for 72 in a 40, when I was doing about 40-45 but was overtaken (dual carriageway) by a total loony who saw the speed trap and turned off down a side road and they couldn't be bothered to go after him (and told me so).
These are little isolated events and probably a miniscule % of total traffic incidents handled by the police (let's face it, you do have to miff them off badly for them to go to so much trouble) but I still remember them after 25-30 years, and tell everybody about them at every opportunity
These kinds of incidents therefore tend to give the police a bad name.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
From: Yorkshire
Do not be led by anyone, remember it is you that you are signing for!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 831
Likes: 0
From: North of South
To be fair though Liam therev are a shed load of older grizzled CID types who will try and steer the witness the way they want .
As for taking statements you only learn how a statement should be written when you attend court and get it ripped to bits by a cheeky barrister
I often heard younger chaps claiming they were good at writing statements right up till they appeared in court and found that Bruche statemnts are not real world statements , funny hehehehe
As for taking statements you only learn how a statement should be written when you attend court and get it ripped to bits by a cheeky barrister
I often heard younger chaps claiming they were good at writing statements right up till they appeared in court and found that Bruche statemnts are not real world statements , funny hehehehe
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 691
Likes: 0
From: Yorkshire
To be fair though Liam therev are a shed load of older grizzled CID types who will try and steer the witness the way they want .
As for taking statements you only learn how a statement should be written when you attend court and get it ripped to bits by a cheeky barrister
I often heard younger chaps claiming they were good at writing statements right up till they appeared in court and found that Bruche statemnts are not real world statements , funny hehehehe
As for taking statements you only learn how a statement should be written when you attend court and get it ripped to bits by a cheeky barrister
I often heard younger chaps claiming they were good at writing statements right up till they appeared in court and found that Bruche statemnts are not real world statements , funny hehehehe
very true
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
Genghis , how very dare you !!!
All police officers are trained in evidence acquisition , the ones who end up in CID are invariably the ones who like sitting in interview rooms collating and processing such evidence rather than actually being the ones who collect it in the first place .
What is the difference between investigating a murder and investigating a fatal car accident ??? Nil the procedures are the same . Only RTA's are investigated by Traffic officers .
Dear me Genghis Im hurt
Although dont tell anyone I was only in traffic by title I got merged froma vehicle crime unit , bazdads!!! I hate traffic too
All police officers are trained in evidence acquisition , the ones who end up in CID are invariably the ones who like sitting in interview rooms collating and processing such evidence rather than actually being the ones who collect it in the first place .
What is the difference between investigating a murder and investigating a fatal car accident ??? Nil the procedures are the same . Only RTA's are investigated by Traffic officers .
Dear me Genghis Im hurt
Although dont tell anyone I was only in traffic by title I got merged froma vehicle crime unit , bazdads!!! I hate traffic too
They actually were very unpleasant about it, I just kept standing my ground - by continuing to ask the same questions until they gave up and dropped it. But, whilst I like to think I'm made of reasonably stern stuff, the general manner from them did routinely scare the hell out of me, and I think that manner (rather than open honest communications) is what just persuades most people to just pay-up and shut-up.
G
