Madeup Tower, G-ABCD...
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've got a trip to the UK scheduled mid-april. I think I'm going to confuse the hell out of everybody by asking for a "Basic Flight Information Service" or maybe a "Radar Traffic Information Service".
To put all this in perspective, most pilots in Holland have been told (when talking to an en-route information service) to say "standing by your frequency" instead of requesting a specific service. Now what's that all about?
To put all this in perspective, most pilots in Holland have been told (when talking to an en-route information service) to say "standing by your frequency" instead of requesting a specific service. Now what's that all about?
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave,
If I remember correctly the "Made up twr, Gxxx, request FIS/RIS/RAS/BS/TS/RAS" is a relatively recent introduction in the UK.
I'm pretty sure that three or four years ago it was changed to this format from the previous format "Made up twr, Gxxx".
This is probably one reason why so many people use the old format in the UK.
I also believe (but amn't 100% sure) that the old "Made up twr, Gxxx" format is the ICAO format. It's certainly the one uses in most other countries outside the UK. It's late, am I'm too tired to look up the ICAO documents to check, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct on that
dp
If I remember correctly the "Made up twr, Gxxx, request FIS/RIS/RAS/BS/TS/RAS" is a relatively recent introduction in the UK.
I'm pretty sure that three or four years ago it was changed to this format from the previous format "Made up twr, Gxxx".
This is probably one reason why so many people use the old format in the UK.
I also believe (but amn't 100% sure) that the old "Made up twr, Gxxx" format is the ICAO format. It's certainly the one uses in most other countries outside the UK. It's late, am I'm too tired to look up the ICAO documents to check, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct on that
dp
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Just a bit lower than the point where the falling angel meets the rising ape
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
innit.
Yes, it is.
Initial call, Who you are and what you want (zone transit, FIS, whatever)
Pass-Your-Message, what you are, Where you are, where you're going, what your doing on the way. etc.
RT is a conversation with someone you can't see and have likely never met. Imagine if you initiated a face to face conversation, or a phone conversation, with a simple "hello, I'm Xxx" and left it at that. Why would anyone want to carry it on? If someone rang me and said, "hello, I'm Jim", my response would likely be "and I care because...?"
JR
Initial call, Who you are and what you want (zone transit, FIS, whatever)
Pass-Your-Message, what you are, Where you are, where you're going, what your doing on the way. etc.
RT is a conversation with someone you can't see and have likely never met. Imagine if you initiated a face to face conversation, or a phone conversation, with a simple "hello, I'm Xxx" and left it at that. Why would anyone want to carry it on? If someone rang me and said, "hello, I'm Jim", my response would likely be "and I care because...?"
JR
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave,
Ok...didn't take me too long to look it up....and didn't cost me too much sleep
It's ICAO DOC 9432 - Manual of Radiotelephony.
"Made up tower, Gxxx" is indeed the ICAO way of doing things. The UK has it's own way (which is relatively recent). I trust that explains why so many people use it this way.
dp
Ok...didn't take me too long to look it up....and didn't cost me too much sleep
It's ICAO DOC 9432 - Manual of Radiotelephony.
"Made up tower, Gxxx" is indeed the ICAO way of doing things. The UK has it's own way (which is relatively recent). I trust that explains why so many people use it this way.
dp
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Age: 38
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, it is.
Initial call, Who you are and what you want (zone transit, FIS, whatever)
Pass-Your-Message, what you are, Where you are, where you're going, what your doing on the way. etc.
RT is a conversation with someone you can't see and have likely never met. Imagine if you initiated a face to face conversation, or a phone conversation, with a simple "hello, I'm Xxx" and left it at that. Why would anyone want to carry it on? If someone rang me and said, "hello, I'm Jim", my response would likely be "and I care because...?"
JR
Initial call, Who you are and what you want (zone transit, FIS, whatever)
Pass-Your-Message, what you are, Where you are, where you're going, what your doing on the way. etc.
RT is a conversation with someone you can't see and have likely never met. Imagine if you initiated a face to face conversation, or a phone conversation, with a simple "hello, I'm Xxx" and left it at that. Why would anyone want to carry it on? If someone rang me and said, "hello, I'm Jim", my response would likely be "and I care because...?"
JR
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If someone rang me and said, "hello, I'm Jim", my response would likely be "and I care because...?"
Air traffickers are at work, not at home and it's not a conversation but a series of instructions and information forming a legal contract.
And yes, I say "Made up Tower/Radar/Aproach, G-XXXX"; it's the way I was taught and I've never been corrected
Seems to make sense to me as I don't know the controller's workload.Cheers
Whirls
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Age: 38
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never used it as it's not CAP413 and further to that, before i started my RT exam my examiner went over a few things, and said whatever you do, dont free call with just your Call-Sign as it makes no sence...
Hi Tower i'm Dave.
Hi Dave, what do you want?
Oh well.. i want a FIS
Ok, pass your details
OR
Hi Tower im dave, id like a FIS
Hi Dave, Pass your details
By telling them what you want first, your not wasting their time making them call you back..
Hi Tower i'm Dave.
Hi Dave, what do you want?
Oh well.. i want a FIS
Ok, pass your details
OR
Hi Tower im dave, id like a FIS
Hi Dave, Pass your details
By telling them what you want first, your not wasting their time making them call you back..
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 669
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
as I don't know the controller's workload
And I take your point about "what I was taught" - but as a flying instructor would you teach anything other than the published version? (PACER perhaps - that's what I was taught)
(And just for the record... if UK procedures changed to omit the service required from the initial call I would argue equally forcefully in favour of that.)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 669
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Dave, as I've shown you above, that's perfectly correct in the UK, and perfectly incorrect everywhere else
That way UK trainers would have clear guidance on this ...
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A number of UK ATS units require that on initial call-up you use only your call sign:-
After changing frequency simply "G-XXXX" or call sign and flight number, ie. "Speedbird 123". In the professional arena, this is becoming more common. As a previous writer has suggested, this books your place in the queue for attention.
This has also been extrapolated further and many pilots now miss out the station called when changing frequency. ie. "speedbird 123, flight level 340".
There is far too much 'talk' over the airwaves in a busy ATC area. You need to be quick and short.
The writer who claims he has never heard this from professional pilots has not been on the correct frequencies and listened to what goes on. It's good to be precise, but sometimes it is just too busy and many have already stated above that if you just 'blast ahead' and reel out a whole load of information, you'll simply get "station calling, standby" or "station calling say again" or even "who's calling", Much to the disgust of other aircraft also trying to make contact, since they now know the same guy is going to reel out the same load of verbal taking even more valuable time.
In a terminal area a jet aircraft will cover a great distance very quickly and in the time it has taken to 'say again' the aircraft has moved on and maybe should be talking to another unit or controller. The ATC controllers are sometimes very busy and cannot just cut to your message, comprehend it and reply. The best way is to say your callsign and FL or altitude, after that the ATC can reply when they are ready to do so. They will ask you what you want and maybe even respond with an instruction straight away, that happens quite allot. The amount of 'blocked' transmissions, due to two or more pilots transmitting at the same time is increasing every year. By letting the ATC controller 'control' the operation in his own time is known to cut down this problem.
Bob.
After changing frequency simply "G-XXXX" or call sign and flight number, ie. "Speedbird 123". In the professional arena, this is becoming more common. As a previous writer has suggested, this books your place in the queue for attention.
This has also been extrapolated further and many pilots now miss out the station called when changing frequency. ie. "speedbird 123, flight level 340".
There is far too much 'talk' over the airwaves in a busy ATC area. You need to be quick and short.
The writer who claims he has never heard this from professional pilots has not been on the correct frequencies and listened to what goes on. It's good to be precise, but sometimes it is just too busy and many have already stated above that if you just 'blast ahead' and reel out a whole load of information, you'll simply get "station calling, standby" or "station calling say again" or even "who's calling", Much to the disgust of other aircraft also trying to make contact, since they now know the same guy is going to reel out the same load of verbal taking even more valuable time.
In a terminal area a jet aircraft will cover a great distance very quickly and in the time it has taken to 'say again' the aircraft has moved on and maybe should be talking to another unit or controller. The ATC controllers are sometimes very busy and cannot just cut to your message, comprehend it and reply. The best way is to say your callsign and FL or altitude, after that the ATC can reply when they are ready to do so. They will ask you what you want and maybe even respond with an instruction straight away, that happens quite allot. The amount of 'blocked' transmissions, due to two or more pilots transmitting at the same time is increasing every year. By letting the ATC controller 'control' the operation in his own time is known to cut down this problem.
Bob.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Just a bit lower than the point where the falling angel meets the rising ape
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, different strokes for different folks then, yes?
Personally, in flying (as in life) I like to give my conversational counterpart an idea of what I want from them early on in the day, if only so's if it turns out they can't help me, I can move on to someone who can with a minimum of delay.
I can see the argument for placing the ball in ATC's court depending on their workload, but I would argue that e.g. requesting RAS early on might lead a busy controller to say "RAS not available, suggest you try Xxx, or accept FIS" instead of "hello", "what do you want?", "I want this", "well you can't have it 'cos I'm busy".
Having said all of the above, If the CAA changed back again tomorrow, I would go with the changed rules (so long as they made some sort of sense!), in order to keep up with current perceived best practice.
Regards,
JR
p.s. I see some people posting regarding the ins and outs of commercial RT. I have no idea, but, terminology aside, is it the same as PPL level RT? Ta!
Personally, in flying (as in life) I like to give my conversational counterpart an idea of what I want from them early on in the day, if only so's if it turns out they can't help me, I can move on to someone who can with a minimum of delay.
I can see the argument for placing the ball in ATC's court depending on their workload, but I would argue that e.g. requesting RAS early on might lead a busy controller to say "RAS not available, suggest you try Xxx, or accept FIS" instead of "hello", "what do you want?", "I want this", "well you can't have it 'cos I'm busy".
Having said all of the above, If the CAA changed back again tomorrow, I would go with the changed rules (so long as they made some sort of sense!), in order to keep up with current perceived best practice.
Regards,
JR
p.s. I see some people posting regarding the ins and outs of commercial RT. I have no idea, but, terminology aside, is it the same as PPL level RT? Ta!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: LKBU
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My FI gave me an explanation why we first start with just a call sign (well, maybe a couple of words extra): it's just a common courtesy to attract the operator's attention first, improving your chances of being identified correctly. For the same reason, he exhorted me to say "XXX INFO, good morning, YY-ZZZ" rather than "XXX INFO, YY-ZZZ, good morning". Yes, I know, RT manuals explicitly discourage greetings, but everyone around here uses them unless the frequency is really busy, and in fact they do have an important implicit meaning: "don't confuse me with anyone you are already tracking".
Also, at a small airfield, the radio may be on a squawk box, so the operator may need a few extra seconds to walk back to the desk and grab the microphone.
Also, at a small airfield, the radio may be on a squawk box, so the operator may need a few extra seconds to walk back to the desk and grab the microphone.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The front end and about 50ft up
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave, your tone and attitude stinks young lad. You asked a question (although it turns out to be rhetorical because you're not interested in any answers) and a number of people with significantly more aviation experience than you have gone to the trouble to give you an explanation. If you speak to an examiner in the same manner you shouldn't make it out of the briefing room on your next test.
Now if you can pull your head out of your own arse for a moment, I'll precis what a number of professional pilots and controllers have already told you:
Why many pilots make first contact with only agency and callsign:
It is ICAO standard RT.
It is standard practise for many.
It gives the controller freedom to run his frequency effectively.
The controller may be communicating on another frequency that you can't hear.
The controller may be talking on a landline.
The controller may be handling higher priority comms than you eg an emergency.
The controller may already have a queue of aircraft with messages to pass.
Your handover may have specified callsign only.
The frequency may be too busy for all aircraft to give their full normal messages and the controller will only ask you for what he considers relevant.
You reduce the chance of stamping on another transmission.
And many other good reasons.
If on first contact you launch into a two minute epic, you may block a busy frequency, cause aircraft that are awaiting an urgent clearance to enter holds or risk busting a previous clearance limit, cause aircraft to go out of range before they can get further handovers, screw over the controller who's listening and talking on a frequency you can't hear and, after all that, you'll still get a "Station calling stand by".
Call with a quick "Agency, C/S" and you don't cause all that mayhem.
I have sat alongside a controller working ground, tower and approach, VHF and UHF on each, and two landlines at a busy unit. That's potentially seven other conversations that you know nothing about. The last thing he wants is badly timed waffle on multiple channels.
Of course, this is not so applicable to the A/G service at some sleepy little club - but it answers your question. Now having asked the question, try very hard to actually comprehend the answers you've been given. Try hard to cut out this sh1t:
A number of professionals who have probably spent more time checking pitot heat on walkarounds than you have total hours, have given you pretty reasonable explanations as to 'why', that should make perfect 'sence' [sic] to you. For you to then tell them that they are incorrect, sloppy and unprofessional when in actual fact they are verbatim ICAO compliant is not going to win you their support.
Well done for asking a question but it's worthless if you refuse to listen to the answer. Take it onboard big man.
Now if you can pull your head out of your own arse for a moment, I'll precis what a number of professional pilots and controllers have already told you:
Why many pilots make first contact with only agency and callsign:
It is ICAO standard RT.
It is standard practise for many.
It gives the controller freedom to run his frequency effectively.
The controller may be communicating on another frequency that you can't hear.
The controller may be talking on a landline.
The controller may be handling higher priority comms than you eg an emergency.
The controller may already have a queue of aircraft with messages to pass.
Your handover may have specified callsign only.
The frequency may be too busy for all aircraft to give their full normal messages and the controller will only ask you for what he considers relevant.
You reduce the chance of stamping on another transmission.
And many other good reasons.
If on first contact you launch into a two minute epic, you may block a busy frequency, cause aircraft that are awaiting an urgent clearance to enter holds or risk busting a previous clearance limit, cause aircraft to go out of range before they can get further handovers, screw over the controller who's listening and talking on a frequency you can't hear and, after all that, you'll still get a "Station calling stand by".
Call with a quick "Agency, C/S" and you don't cause all that mayhem.
I have sat alongside a controller working ground, tower and approach, VHF and UHF on each, and two landlines at a busy unit. That's potentially seven other conversations that you know nothing about. The last thing he wants is badly timed waffle on multiple channels.
Of course, this is not so applicable to the A/G service at some sleepy little club - but it answers your question. Now having asked the question, try very hard to actually comprehend the answers you've been given. Try hard to cut out this sh1t:
it's wrong and sloppy RT
I've never heard professional pilots do it, I'd hope they don't!
POINTLESS
wasting their time making them call you back
Well done for asking a question but it's worthless if you refuse to listen to the answer. Take it onboard big man.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dave
When you start to fly properly, post PPL, you will find that a lot of people use non CAP413 wording.
e.g. "make that a radar heading."
People still use terms like 'QSY to the enroute', as well.
Strangely enough, the systems seems to cope.
When you start to fly properly, post PPL, you will find that a lot of people use non CAP413 wording.
e.g. "make that a radar heading."
People still use terms like 'QSY to the enroute', as well.
Strangely enough, the systems seems to cope.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: .
Age: 37
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't help but feel there's a lot of pedantic nit-picking on this thread.
Usual procedure is "Station, Callsign, Intentions/Request", but often "Station, Callsign" will suffice. Varies from situation to situation and place to place. Big deal. Why the big fuss? And what's the difference?
Seems like someone is getting their breeks in a twist over nothing.
Smithy
Usual procedure is "Station, Callsign, Intentions/Request", but often "Station, Callsign" will suffice. Varies from situation to situation and place to place. Big deal. Why the big fuss? And what's the difference?
Seems like someone is getting their breeks in a twist over nothing.
Smithy
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
p.s. I see some people posting regarding the ins and outs of commercial RT. I have no idea, but, terminology aside, is it the same as PPL level RT? Ta!
At a commercial level, you are expected to be slicker on the radio (no ums and ers) and be thinking ahead (i.e. pick up your own ATIS on approach to an airfield).There will be many occassions when non-standard, non-CAP413 compliant RT will be required; blinding following it 'cos that's what it says, may leave you unprepared if you're caught in an unusual situation.
Cheers
Whirls
Guest
Posts: n/a
Knowing the books and good practical application are two different things. In any case, with R/T the books say it's a guide to comms. Someone who does everything by the book irrespective of the situation shows poor situational awareness and can, quite frankly, be a pain.
I'm not advocating using non-standard R/T all the time but the original question should not even be an issue. A pilot should be able to judge how best to contact ATC - if it really is a freecall then pick up some cues from the current frequency use....if it's quiet go in with your service request, if it's busy and the controller's voice suggests he or she is working like the proverbial paperhangar then go in with callsign only and they'll call you back when they can.
It works the other way too - but maybe you don't spot it. Many controllers will modify the delivery of information and instructions depending on the pilot's voice etc. Smooth, flowing R/T will get far more info in one transmission than someone who is struggling to remember the precise order that information should be passed in or who tells the controller their 'life story' in the initial call.
Knowing the rules is important so that you can fall back on them when it becomes necessary - where language skills are limited, for example.
But don't get too hung up about it - there are far more important things to do by the book when you're flying.
I'm not advocating using non-standard R/T all the time but the original question should not even be an issue. A pilot should be able to judge how best to contact ATC - if it really is a freecall then pick up some cues from the current frequency use....if it's quiet go in with your service request, if it's busy and the controller's voice suggests he or she is working like the proverbial paperhangar then go in with callsign only and they'll call you back when they can.
It works the other way too - but maybe you don't spot it. Many controllers will modify the delivery of information and instructions depending on the pilot's voice etc. Smooth, flowing R/T will get far more info in one transmission than someone who is struggling to remember the precise order that information should be passed in or who tells the controller their 'life story' in the initial call.
Knowing the rules is important so that you can fall back on them when it becomes necessary - where language skills are limited, for example.
But don't get too hung up about it - there are far more important things to do by the book when you're flying.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very Good, Spitoon I agree entirely!
The Law says a licensed hackney carriage can 'Park' anywhere he wishes and the law includes the fast lane of a motorway. It comes from the days when he could stop anywhere to feed his Horse! The law still stands, but would anyone consider this a 'proffesional' thing to do? The world moves on, equipment and proceedures get better, we now have telephones in our cockpit and can dial up the ATC on the land line. You have to move with the times! But use your sense and judgement for the circumstances on the day. If you are inexperienced or unsure, then back to basics.
The Law says a licensed hackney carriage can 'Park' anywhere he wishes and the law includes the fast lane of a motorway. It comes from the days when he could stop anywhere to feed his Horse! The law still stands, but would anyone consider this a 'proffesional' thing to do? The world moves on, equipment and proceedures get better, we now have telephones in our cockpit and can dial up the ATC on the land line. You have to move with the times! But use your sense and judgement for the circumstances on the day. If you are inexperienced or unsure, then back to basics.