VFR 'On Top'
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VFR 'On Top'
Hi,
I was wondering if you could fly on a basic PPL above cloud assuming you do not enter cloud whilst climbing or descending through cloud.
I found this;
Would this indicate that if you are flying above 3000' you can fly above cloud (even overcast) but cannot enter cloud at any time as this would be IMC.
I was wondering if you could fly on a basic PPL above cloud assuming you do not enter cloud whilst climbing or descending through cloud.
I found this;
Weather minima for VFR flight outside Controlled Airspace (Classes F and G Airspace)
(a) At and above FL 100
8km flight visibility
1500 m horizontally from cloud
1000ft vertically from cloud.
8km flight visibility
1500 m horizontally from cloud
1000ft vertically from cloud.
(b) Below FL 100
5
5km flight visibility
1500 m horizontally from cloud
1000ft vertically from cloud.
5
5km flight visibility
1500 m horizontally from cloud
1000ft vertically from cloud.
(c) At or below 3000ft
As in (b) above or:
for fixed wing aircraft:
5 km flight visibility
Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
As in (b) above or:
for fixed wing aircraft:
5 km flight visibility
Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
for fixed wing aircraft operating at 140kt or less:
1500 m flight visibility
Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
1500 m flight visibility
Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
Would this indicate that if you are flying above 3000' you can fly above cloud (even overcast) but cannot enter cloud at any time as this would be IMC.
Any help appreciated.
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For a basic PPL in the circumstances you mention, I think you'll find the relevant restriction is contained in the ANO Schedule 8, where it says ...
Hope this helps ...
JD
PART A – FLIGHT CREW LICENCES
Section 1 – United Kingdom Licences
Sub-Section 1 AEROPLANE PILOTS
Privileges:
...
(2) He shall not:
...
Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) ...
Privileges:
...
(2) He shall not:
...
(c) unless his licence includes an instrument rating (aeroplane) or an instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane:
...
...
(iii) out of sight of the surface;
Hope this helps ...
JD
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getting up through the cloud aint the problem.... its the gettin' down again!
If it's a broken layer then you may well get stuck above it.
I would guess that every PPL has done it and had something of a white knuckle ride back down through it usually with no autopilot and usually breaking out of the cloud before you find terra firma.
SB
If it's a broken layer then you may well get stuck above it.
I would guess that every PPL has done it and had something of a white knuckle ride back down through it usually with no autopilot and usually breaking out of the cloud before you find terra firma.
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Ditto, over here you're allowed VFR on top as a basic PPL right, with limitations on ascertaining positive position fixes at intervals of not less than (I don't remember!). however the book actually suggests that visual position fixing above >4/8ths is not 'feasible'. If you're signed off on VOR/NDB you can fly over 8/8ths, but you'd better hope for a hole to come down through!
All of which is utterly irrelevant if you hold a JAA UK PPL. Sorry!
All of which is utterly irrelevant if you hold a JAA UK PPL. Sorry!
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VFR above a solid overcast is the default around the world.
Very few countries ban it on their basic PPL. The UK is one of them and I believe the only one in Europe.
How you navigate is a separate issue. The UK PPL training syllabus is not up to much and perhaps this is why the CAA has banned it - one would have to teach proper radio navigation (VOR/DME/GPS).
Very few countries ban it on their basic PPL. The UK is one of them and I believe the only one in Europe.
How you navigate is a separate issue. The UK PPL training syllabus is not up to much and perhaps this is why the CAA has banned it - one would have to teach proper radio navigation (VOR/DME/GPS).
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How is it possible ?
How is it possible to be VFR on top of OVC ? Surely you entered IMC to get there, or will on the way back down. If you went through a hole then you are not IMC in the UK since it's BKN and therefore you are still "in site of surface" ?
I guess you can be VFR on top during the odd occasion (and extremely unlikely) that your destination has BKN, as does your departure, yet it's OVC in between. How often does that happen ?
I guess you can be VFR on top during the odd occasion (and extremely unlikely) that your destination has BKN, as does your departure, yet it's OVC in between. How often does that happen ?
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It really is as simple as Jumbo Driver wrote above.
ICAO stipulates varying VFR minima depending on altitude etc (quoted by HR200), but they don't say anything about "in sight of surface". You can climb in the clear, fly over an overcast, and land in the clear the other side and be legal.
That's the case in most countries.
The UK adds a restriction to UK PPLs. Unless they have an IR or an IMCR, they must at all times be in sight of the surface. *
So a French PPL with no added ratings can fly VFR on top in the UK, a CAA PPL ditto cannot.
The UK PPL cannot fly VFR on top in France, according to his licence. The eternal question is: if he has an IMCR, can he? (France doesn't recognise the IMCR).
___________________
* Edit: Sorry: the rules changed. In some publications, it's now "with the surface in sight".
ICAO stipulates varying VFR minima depending on altitude etc (quoted by HR200), but they don't say anything about "in sight of surface". You can climb in the clear, fly over an overcast, and land in the clear the other side and be legal.
That's the case in most countries.
The UK adds a restriction to UK PPLs. Unless they have an IR or an IMCR, they must at all times be in sight of the surface. *
So a French PPL with no added ratings can fly VFR on top in the UK, a CAA PPL ditto cannot.
The UK PPL cannot fly VFR on top in France, according to his licence. The eternal question is: if he has an IMCR, can he? (France doesn't recognise the IMCR).
___________________
* Edit: Sorry: the rules changed. In some publications, it's now "with the surface in sight".
Last edited by Keef; 2nd Mar 2009 at 08:22.
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How is it possible to be VFR on top of OVC ? Surely you entered IMC to get there, or will on the way back down. If you went through a hole then you are not IMC in the UK since it's BKN and therefore you are still "in site of surface" ?
I guess you can be VFR on top during the odd occasion (and extremely unlikely) that your destination has BKN, as does your departure, yet it's OVC in between. How often does that happen ?
I guess you can be VFR on top during the odd occasion (and extremely unlikely) that your destination has BKN, as does your departure, yet it's OVC in between. How often does that happen ?
Secondly, it is perfectly easy to climb up in VMC, fly above an overcast for a few hundred miles, and descend in VMC. This is a fairly common profile for a flight from UK to France for example - if you pick the weather correctly. I have flown UK to Italy or Croatia, legal VFR, without seeing the surface at all from Belgium onwards and across the Alps.
I would agree it is not a fantastically useful privilege for short bimbles around the UK (not least because it is rare, in the south, to be able to climb VMC on top without busting Class A) but it does make long trips across Europe possible under legal VFR. You have to know you weather sources though, and obviously radio nav is a must.
Remember this is the worldwide default...
The eternal question is: if he has an IMCR, can he?
- IFR for Class D-G, UK airspace only
- removal of the need to be in sight of surface for VFR (no geographical restriction)
Unfortunately these two bits are in different parts of the ANO.
This works brilliantly for long trips to the continent. Depart the UK under IFR, change to VFR by the FIR boundary, continue above the overcast, and land VFR. Then reverse the process on the way back. A great use for the IMCR.
CAA email extract from 2003:
Article 123 of the current ANO sets out the extra territorial effect
of the ANO. In the simplest of terms what it says is that what you cannot
do here in the UK, you cannot do elsewhere. That said, the holder of a
valid IMC Rating is not bound by the condition that requires the holder of a
licence without an IMC Rating to remain in sight of the surface.
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Thanks everyone for your input.
My main reason for asking is I am planning a trip to the Isle Of Man from Sherburn and this route takes me over the pennines unless I track around the highest points.
Even in the best of weather there are usually some cloud formation over the hills. There are class A all over the West part of Northern England but will be flying between 3000' and 5000' until I reach the coast. I am very confident and have no problems with Radio Nav and probably track POL - IOM anyway.
Usually these altitudes are above the cloud and is clear again in the East and again in the West its just the trip over there.
From everyones comments I am starting to believe my original understanding being as long as you can maintain VMC on the way up and down assuming your above 3000' (as per my original post) you can fly over the cloud but the comments of the UK not allowing a basic PPL to be out of sight of the surface is concerning if definate (at all altitudes)
My main reason for asking is I am planning a trip to the Isle Of Man from Sherburn and this route takes me over the pennines unless I track around the highest points.
Even in the best of weather there are usually some cloud formation over the hills. There are class A all over the West part of Northern England but will be flying between 3000' and 5000' until I reach the coast. I am very confident and have no problems with Radio Nav and probably track POL - IOM anyway.
Usually these altitudes are above the cloud and is clear again in the East and again in the West its just the trip over there.
From everyones comments I am starting to believe my original understanding being as long as you can maintain VMC on the way up and down assuming your above 3000' (as per my original post) you can fly over the cloud but the comments of the UK not allowing a basic PPL to be out of sight of the surface is concerning if definate (at all altitudes)
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And remember "the surface" doesn't have to be underneath you, technically you could fly on top of overcast with a hill poking through in the distance. There is no requirement for you to be able to reach that "surface".
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From everyones comments I am starting to believe my original understanding being as long as you can maintain VMC on the way up and down assuming your above 3000' (as per my original post) you can fly over the cloud but the comments of the UK not allowing a basic PPL to be out of sight of the surface is concerning if definate (at all altitudes)
Yes, of course you can fly over cloud in VMC. However, if you only have the basic CAA PPL, then Schedule 8 of the UK ANO requires that you must remain in sight of the surface at all times, confident or not - if you intend to stay legal, that is ...
There can be no equivocation.
JD
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I think the question should be asked of those who plan to explore the limits of legailty how they would deal with an engine failure.
Take the Pennines example of being able to see (but not reach) a distant peak, with maybe a 500ft (or less) cloudbase in the surrounds of it, the terrain avilable to land in being undulating etc?
Is it a question of Dirty Harry and 'Do you feel lucky punk?"
Take the Pennines example of being able to see (but not reach) a distant peak, with maybe a 500ft (or less) cloudbase in the surrounds of it, the terrain avilable to land in being undulating etc?
Is it a question of Dirty Harry and 'Do you feel lucky punk?"
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I get it
I think the question should be asked of those who plan to explore the limits of legailty how they would deal with an engine failure.
Take the Pennines example of being able to see (but not reach) a distant peak, with maybe a 500ft (or less) cloudbase in the surrounds of it, the terrain avilable to land in being undulating etc?
Is it a question of Dirty Harry and 'Do you feel lucky punk?"
Take the Pennines example of being able to see (but not reach) a distant peak, with maybe a 500ft (or less) cloudbase in the surrounds of it, the terrain avilable to land in being undulating etc?
Is it a question of Dirty Harry and 'Do you feel lucky punk?"
So banning, non IMC from flying on top, does sounds like the safer thing to do, in my limited tyro inexperienced opinion.
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JD
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Don't forget the cloud separation requirements when above 3000 feet. These requirements may have the effect of pushing you up or forcing you down into controlled airspace or some other place you do not want to be .
Of course those with a lifetime CAA licence, and even with no instrument qualification, may legally opt to declare themseves IFR with no relevant cloud separation minima, provided they maintain VMC
And then there are those who might think that cloud separation minima are legally undetectable and therefore unenforceable
Of course those with a lifetime CAA licence, and even with no instrument qualification, may legally opt to declare themseves IFR with no relevant cloud separation minima, provided they maintain VMC
And then there are those who might think that cloud separation minima are legally undetectable and therefore unenforceable
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Not Quite! They can fly in accordance with IFR and with less than VMC cloud clearance (which by definition means they are not in VMC and hence in IMC) so long as they are In Sight Of Surface and have the required in flight visibility. (This ability to fly IFR in Class G, in some IMC is an odd feature of the CAA PPL)
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I would not recommend flying above an overcast in the UK without an IMC rating.
You are starting to gamble on a successful descent at destination or alternate. Ask yourself how you would feel if no such escape route materialised ? Add high ground to the mix and you may well be flying over weather that is fog or mist on hills with much reduced visibility. Engine failure in a single must be considered.
Well do you feel lucky Punk ?
You are starting to gamble on a successful descent at destination or alternate. Ask yourself how you would feel if no such escape route materialised ? Add high ground to the mix and you may well be flying over weather that is fog or mist on hills with much reduced visibility. Engine failure in a single must be considered.
Well do you feel lucky Punk ?