Fis/basic - ATSOCAS Changes - 12th March
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fbw:
Just the kind of common sense I'd expect from Scottish Info - thank you!
NS
if I am working traffic "A" that I think from his reported track may come into conflict with traffic "B" I will advise both of each others intentions....just as I always have
NS
Pompey till I die
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A quick clarification
When flying on frequency to Farnborough radar, where you previously had a FIS what would you ask for now ? My understanding is that you would ask for a "Traffic Service" and not expect to enter into a contract with respect to headings & altitudes.
However when approaching non-radar units (i.e. aerodromes) you would then ask for a Basic service.
I'm guessing how you know which services are on offer ? For example Goodwood would offer a FIS but because they don't have radar presumably they can now only offer a basic service rather than a traffic service ? Therefore interchanging FIS & Traffic as well as "traffic information" and basic seems impossible ? Despite getting all of the questions in the test at the end I'm still a little confused as to how it works in progress.
I think I'd like to be ordered to land at the nearest aerodrome for rebriefing.
However when approaching non-radar units (i.e. aerodromes) you would then ask for a Basic service.
I'm guessing how you know which services are on offer ? For example Goodwood would offer a FIS but because they don't have radar presumably they can now only offer a basic service rather than a traffic service ? Therefore interchanging FIS & Traffic as well as "traffic information" and basic seems impossible ? Despite getting all of the questions in the test at the end I'm still a little confused as to how it works in progress.
I think I'd like to be ordered to land at the nearest aerodrome for rebriefing.
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Simply ask for whatever service you want. If you want a traffic service, then ask for that. If they don't have radar, or can't provide the service for some other reason, then they will tell you that and offer an alternative service. If you absolutely know that they don't have radar, then there is no point in asking for anything other than a basic service.
A FIS in the old system is pretty much equilivant to a basic service. The trouble seems to be was that a lot of people expected (but had no right to expect) details of traffic on a FIS.
FIS=Basic Service
RIS=Traffic Service
RAS=Deconfliction service
But that translation assumes that you fully understood what a FIS/RIS/RAS was in the first place, and the trouble seems to be that a lot of people didn't.
dp
A FIS in the old system is pretty much equilivant to a basic service. The trouble seems to be was that a lot of people expected (but had no right to expect) details of traffic on a FIS.
FIS=Basic Service
RIS=Traffic Service
RAS=Deconfliction service
But that translation assumes that you fully understood what a FIS/RIS/RAS was in the first place, and the trouble seems to be that a lot of people didn't.
dp
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Previously ..... "G-ABCD, identified, Radar Advisory/Radar Information Service" (instinctively, due to 25 years experience, and solid knowledge of airspace etc..)
After March 12th .... and numerous airspace changes ... which change Class depending on day of week, time of day and level, introduction of TRAs, new ATSOCA names etc..
"G-ABCD, identified (looks at radar screen) ..... Traffic Service limited due to controller workload (looks at blood pressure monitor), while I try to
ing work out ....
A) whether it's a weekday/weekend (looks at calendar and thinks)
B) what time of day it is (looks at watch and thinks)
C) if relevant military TRA is activated/deactivated (scrolls through and looks at .... 3 info pages ... and thinks)
D) depending on your position and level (and conditions A, B and C) whether you are actually in Class F, Class G or Class C airspace. (looks at radar, watch, calendar and the heavens ... and thinks)
<next aircraft calls before getting a chance to reply to G-ABCD ... "G-EFGH requesting a Radar Service">
Yeah, I'm REALLY looking forward to this, especially at the dinner time rush with 12 aircraft on a Radar ... errr...... no .... I ... mean ..... a Deconfliction Service
ing bureaucracy. 
After March 12th .... and numerous airspace changes ... which change Class depending on day of week, time of day and level, introduction of TRAs, new ATSOCA names etc..
"G-ABCD, identified (looks at radar screen) ..... Traffic Service limited due to controller workload (looks at blood pressure monitor), while I try to
ing work out ....A) whether it's a weekday/weekend (looks at calendar and thinks)
B) what time of day it is (looks at watch and thinks)
C) if relevant military TRA is activated/deactivated (scrolls through and looks at .... 3 info pages ... and thinks)
D) depending on your position and level (and conditions A, B and C) whether you are actually in Class F, Class G or Class C airspace. (looks at radar, watch, calendar and the heavens ... and thinks)
<next aircraft calls before getting a chance to reply to G-ABCD ... "G-EFGH requesting a Radar Service">
Yeah, I'm REALLY looking forward to this, especially at the dinner time rush with 12 aircraft on a Radar ... errr...... no .... I ... mean ..... a Deconfliction Service
ing bureaucracy.
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What about foreign pilots flying around in uncontrolled UK airspace (including the commercial traffic)?
Are they now going to be even more unsure how to answer the question "What service are you requesting outside controlled airspace?". How can they possibly be aware that they are entering into a 'contract' with the controller?
Are they now going to be even more unsure how to answer the question "What service are you requesting outside controlled airspace?". How can they possibly be aware that they are entering into a 'contract' with the controller?
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Just to throw a spanner in the works I hear it mentioned a week or so back that come 2011 this may all change again as we have to fall in line with the rest of Europe....!!!!!!.....why the f..k did we not do that this time around then?????????????????????
back on duty Friday the 13th..!!! if you hear me on Scottish Info 119.875 I will appologise now if I say FIS instead of BS.......it took me an age to stop saying Shanwick the last time I moved...!!!!!!
back on duty Friday the 13th..!!! if you hear me on Scottish Info 119.875 I will appologise now if I say FIS instead of BS.......it took me an age to stop saying Shanwick the last time I moved...!!!!!!
Pompey till I die
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Not just
But that translation assumes that you fully understood what a FIS/RIS/RAS was in the first place, and the trouble seems to be that a lot of people didn't.
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So moving forward now, to retain the same level of service, do I ask for a "basic" and hope I get traffic information, or do I just ask for a traffic service ?
If you request a 'basic' from a LARS provider who you used to provide you with an 'enhanced-FIS', you may well be disappointed. For sure, however, if you request a 'traffic service' from London or Scottish Information, you'll definitely be disappointed!
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If you request a 'basic' from a LARS provider who you used to provide you with an 'enhanced-FIS', you may well be disappointed.
What if you also want something else from them, such as DAAIS which they are promulgated to provide or the QNH of their airfield (which is under some controlled airspace), and you quite like having an alerting service, but you've no need at all for someone to be watching you on radar, particularly as you're flying at 7,000', above all the other traffic you could conflict with, and they sound somewhat busy anyway? They'll give you the DAAIS and QNH and push you off onto London Information will they??
I didn't get any sense of that from reading the documentation.
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GtW:
Why would a LARS provider stop providing alerting service, weather etc?
Dublinpilot:
I've heard that a lot, but I think it's wrong. What happened was that (some) conscientious controllers gave traffic info when they thought it appropriate. I don't believe there were many pilots who expected it - they just valued it when it was given.
NS
A Basic Service is an ATS provided for the purpose of giving advice and information useful for the safe and efficient conduct of flights. This may include weather information, changes of serviceability of facilities, conditions at aerodromes, general airspace activity information, and any other information likely to affect safety.
A Traffic Service is a surveillance based ATS, where in addition to the provisions of a Basic Service, the controller provides...
A Deconfliction Service is a surveillance based ATS where, in addition to the provisions of a Basic Service, the controller provides...
Dublinpilot:
The trouble seems to be was that a lot of people expected (but had no right to expect) details of traffic on a FIS
NS
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NS is right. I never expected traffic info from an FIS service but was grateful to receive it from a conscientious controller aware of his duty of care.
Nothing will change. The conscientious controllers will continue to provide traffic info when they think it appropriate.
Goes to show the whole exercise has been largely unnecessary.
Nothing will change. The conscientious controllers will continue to provide traffic info when they think it appropriate.
Goes to show the whole exercise has been largely unnecessary.
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First day on duty today after the ATSOCA changes...........I must admit I was well impresed with you all today as only one out of many asked for a FIS on 119.875......the rest on inital contact asked for a "Basic service".....well done one and all..........
Pompey till I die
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I heard somebody ask for FIS
Whilst on Farnborough today I heard somebody ask for FIS. Luckily they were not ordered to land at the nearest airfield for full briefing.
Apart from saying "BASIC" instead of "Flight Information" it all seems pretty smooth although I did doubly concentrate on changing to Farnborough to make sure I said "basic" instead of "flight information"
Apart from saying "BASIC" instead of "Flight Information" it all seems pretty smooth although I did doubly concentrate on changing to Farnborough to make sure I said "basic" instead of "flight information"
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Yes, I agree, it seems just like the non-event I rather thought it would be and little more than a name-change exercise. It was a lovely day for GA today and most calls I heard on London Information were correctly requesting "Basic Service" - although I did hear one request for a "Basic Traffic Service" ...
More interesting, however, was the lady controller on London Information (124.750) this afternoon who was acknowledging all requests to her with "Flight Information, Basic Service" ...
JD
More interesting, however, was the lady controller on London Information (124.750) this afternoon who was acknowledging all requests to her with "Flight Information, Basic Service" ...
JD
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It was easy
Most people here just got offered BASIC as soon as they left the ZONE.
Today though---15 of march seems some received... well FIS...
I think people should just relax a little, it's a good start but both Pilots and ATCO's will get it wrong for a bit.
1/60
Today though---15 of march seems some received... well FIS...
I think people should just relax a little, it's a good start but both Pilots and ATCO's will get it wrong for a bit.
1/60
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The first nice weekend for flying after the changes and boy did we have to work for a living!
It seems that, at the moment that the proviso's of a Basic service (i.e no traffic information has to be passed) is causing some pilots to ask for a traffic service instead.
A traffic service can only provided if the radar coverage permits it and often the service was limited because pilots requesting the service were flying below radar cover.
Don't forget that whatever the service, we have a duty of care and even if you only request, or get a Basic service, we will still give information on traffic if a confliction is likely.
It seems that, at the moment that the proviso's of a Basic service (i.e no traffic information has to be passed) is causing some pilots to ask for a traffic service instead.
A traffic service can only provided if the radar coverage permits it and often the service was limited because pilots requesting the service were flying below radar cover.
Don't forget that whatever the service, we have a duty of care and even if you only request, or get a Basic service, we will still give information on traffic if a confliction is likely.
Pompey till I die
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Confused
Don't forget that whatever the service, we have a duty of care and even if you only request, or get a Basic service, we will still give information on traffic if a confliction is likely.
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FIS didn't formally require any traffic information to be passed either ... so, despite all the hype, nothing has really changed, surely ... ?
JD
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Its not precisely the same duty of care; its now in print, rather than implicit. It always used to be an unwritten rule... always lurking in the background looking over your shoulder. Now it is in black and white in the CAP774. Sooner or later some poor sap will be up in front of the beak for not fulfilling that duty of care by not passing enough traffic info to prevent a collision. Notwithstanding the requirements detailed in the provision of a basic service, CAP774 has the following nugget buried in the small print:
"....the nature of the ATS task in Class F/G airspace means that it is not possible to be totally prescriptive about all actions to be taken, particularly with regard to unknown traffic and the passing of advice and warnings on high risk conflictions to pilots who have requested lower level services (i.e. Basic Service and Traffic Service). Consequently, there is a need for controllers/FISOs to remain free to use their professional judgement to determine the best course of action for them to take for any specific situation."
Therefore, if I am aware of a real risk of a collision, rather than sit on my hands and not pass specific traffic info, I shall use my professional judgement and do whatever I consider necessary to prevent a collision and keep myself out of court.
"....the nature of the ATS task in Class F/G airspace means that it is not possible to be totally prescriptive about all actions to be taken, particularly with regard to unknown traffic and the passing of advice and warnings on high risk conflictions to pilots who have requested lower level services (i.e. Basic Service and Traffic Service). Consequently, there is a need for controllers/FISOs to remain free to use their professional judgement to determine the best course of action for them to take for any specific situation."
Therefore, if I am aware of a real risk of a collision, rather than sit on my hands and not pass specific traffic info, I shall use my professional judgement and do whatever I consider necessary to prevent a collision and keep myself out of court.