Light Aircraft Down at Fenland
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Without wishing to belittle anyone here, or indeed this website.... but I seriously doubt the significance of any discussion here on yesterdays accident is really going to make any worse the grief of those who mattered most to the deceased. Really. Let's getover ourselves and talk about flight safety. Bose-X has added an insight here for which any pilot reading should be grateful
VFE.
VFE.
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This is from his son, posted on another place:
"Tragically, David Mickleburgh was killed shortly after take-off from Fenland Airfield around 11am on Saturday 21st February 2009.
You may know of David from his home-built aircraft, the Leburg Sparrow, G-BZVC, which was featured on the cover of the May 2008 edition of Light Aviation.
All the staff at Fenland and the emergency services, including the air ambulance, acted promptly and professionally and the family would like to express their appreciation for all their efforts.
By way of some solace, David died whilst living his dream of flying his own designed and built aircraft.
He will be dearly missed, by his wife Edith, his children and grandchildren.
Anyone who knew David as a meticulous and vigilant pilot would also know that his pragmatism would prefer donations to the Lincolnshire air ambulance, rather than flowers.
I will post details of his funeral as soon as they are arranged.
We would have loved to have him (my Dad) around for a few years more!
Henry Mickleburgh"
RIP
Aviation Forums for pilots - from FLYER Magazine=
"Tragically, David Mickleburgh was killed shortly after take-off from Fenland Airfield around 11am on Saturday 21st February 2009.
You may know of David from his home-built aircraft, the Leburg Sparrow, G-BZVC, which was featured on the cover of the May 2008 edition of Light Aviation.
All the staff at Fenland and the emergency services, including the air ambulance, acted promptly and professionally and the family would like to express their appreciation for all their efforts.
By way of some solace, David died whilst living his dream of flying his own designed and built aircraft.
He will be dearly missed, by his wife Edith, his children and grandchildren.
Anyone who knew David as a meticulous and vigilant pilot would also know that his pragmatism would prefer donations to the Lincolnshire air ambulance, rather than flowers.
I will post details of his funeral as soon as they are arranged.
We would have loved to have him (my Dad) around for a few years more!
Henry Mickleburgh"
RIP
Aviation Forums for pilots - from FLYER Magazine=
Hovering AND talking
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Originally Posted by cjboy
There is another thread asking why there's less informed posting on this forum these days, and also less women posting.
This is a good example why. Bose was an actual witness to the crash, posted what he saw, and still the "wait for the AAIB report before you speak of the accident" brigade come out.
This is a good example why. Bose was an actual witness to the crash, posted what he saw, and still the "wait for the AAIB report before you speak of the accident" brigade come out.
Originally Posted by DB6
Quite so. It's been said before, but to the 'Wait for the AAIB' types:
1) Don't read RUMOUR networks (most of the rest of us can grasp that one).
1) Don't read RUMOUR networks (most of the rest of us can grasp that one).
Cheers
Whirls
I hesitate to query the detail in your comments Bose, but had the unfortunate pilot got airborne before the 26/36 intersection, hence the right hand turn to get back down on 36? Or had he gone past the intersection which would have meant a steeper turn? Just trying to work out what I might have done differently.
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VG, All I can tell you is what I saw, a turn onto 36, eyewitnesses on the ground would have a better idea of the angles.
I think you will find that the AIB will talk to me and the other witnesses just as they did the last time I had input on a fatal.
And there we have it in a nutshell. Except I prefer not to read speculative rumours even from apparent eye witnesses.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
Last edited by S-Works; 24th Feb 2009 at 07:32.
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Oh dear oh dear.
Another fatality this year - it seems like it's happening every week these days.
Why a low level steep turn following an EFATO?! Surely it's well known that it's a no-no unless you have bags of height (more than 500 feet MINIMUM).
With Fenland being, well, in the middle of the fens (flat) why oh why was that considered the the only option I wonder?!
I can't pass on condolences to someone I don't know, but my feelings go out to all concerned.
SITW
Another fatality this year - it seems like it's happening every week these days.
Why a low level steep turn following an EFATO?! Surely it's well known that it's a no-no unless you have bags of height (more than 500 feet MINIMUM).
With Fenland being, well, in the middle of the fens (flat) why oh why was that considered the the only option I wonder?!
I can't pass on condolences to someone I don't know, but my feelings go out to all concerned.
SITW
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A rare event
Instead of waiting years for a reason we have an expert eyewitness who not only saw the accident but has the knowledge to describe exactly what occurred without adding any presumptions.
This is an invaluable warning to the rest of us.
I for one will not be fobbed off with 'oh we'll find somewhere' again.
Before my next lesson I will know where to land after EFATO at both ends of the runway,and will establish the same for any other runway used away from 'home'.
This is an invaluable warning to the rest of us.
I for one will not be fobbed off with 'oh we'll find somewhere' again.
Before my next lesson I will know where to land after EFATO at both ends of the runway,and will establish the same for any other runway used away from 'home'.
Some more money for Capt PPRuNe
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I think the comments made by atceng and others, posting similar, constructive advice should be welcomed. EFATO is obviously a situation where there is no time to consider options (ie spend any time thinking about what to do, after the failure has occurred), as by its nature does not afford the luxury of the few seconds of time needed to do so.
I regularly fly out of Shoreham Airport on the south coast of the UK. I consider myself as being reasonably familiar with the surroundings, however in the light of this tragedy I decided to have a close look at the aerial maps of the area (using (Google Earth). I was surprised at the additional insight I gained, from doing just that. I think we should all look at our undershoot / overshoot / EFATO "options," in advance (at our regular airports). I think that previously I had overlooked doing this because: (a) I (wrongly) assumed I was very familiar with the ATZ I use frequently (the pattern / procedure - yes, but not the actual ground), (b) had not considered the other methods (ie use of internet) of studying the areas around the ATZ, in particular the areas at each end of the runway.
Rich
I regularly fly out of Shoreham Airport on the south coast of the UK. I consider myself as being reasonably familiar with the surroundings, however in the light of this tragedy I decided to have a close look at the aerial maps of the area (using (Google Earth). I was surprised at the additional insight I gained, from doing just that. I think we should all look at our undershoot / overshoot / EFATO "options," in advance (at our regular airports). I think that previously I had overlooked doing this because: (a) I (wrongly) assumed I was very familiar with the ATZ I use frequently (the pattern / procedure - yes, but not the actual ground), (b) had not considered the other methods (ie use of internet) of studying the areas around the ATZ, in particular the areas at each end of the runway.
Rich
Pompey till I die
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When DO you go back ?
What height WOULD you attempt to go back? I've always thought at around 1500ft AAL in a PA28, I would attempt a return after EFATO. Less than that and I would go straight ahead. I've NEVER tried it though. Kill the power and attempt a 180 to see how much height I lose. Any informed opinions out there ?
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I simulated EFATO at 200 feet on various aircraft on FSX to see what happened. Invariably they nose dived into the ground about half way through the steep turn- all except for the Cessna 152 and the Piper Cub, both of which made it back to the runway. One could also put in two stages of flap during the steep turn and then get rid of them when straightening out (as in a canyon box turn).
Not sure if this has any significance - I don't think I'll rely on FSX programming accuracy or lack of it to determine my fate! Believe me I would not try it on a real aircraft unless at a good height. I would hardly think it would need to be 1500 feet aal though.
Now to Google Earth to find my landing ahead options at my home airfield....
hmmm - spoilt for choice on 22 - need to watch out for the mast though. 04 the M25 is a factor.
Not sure if this has any significance - I don't think I'll rely on FSX programming accuracy or lack of it to determine my fate! Believe me I would not try it on a real aircraft unless at a good height. I would hardly think it would need to be 1500 feet aal though.
Now to Google Earth to find my landing ahead options at my home airfield....
hmmm - spoilt for choice on 22 - need to watch out for the mast though. 04 the M25 is a factor.
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DavidHoul52
No, no, no - don't even think about FSX as being a useful tool in these circumstances!
Okay you might make it from 200 feet on your computer, just like you can fly a B737 under the Runcorn bridge - but it is not how you're trained and it's NOT what is acceptable. Don't even put this kind of rubbish in people's heads, especially the more inexperienced.
Flying instructors (should) put a lot of effort into pointing out the suitable landing areas for the 'home' field, as well as general principles in the case of an EFATO. It is possible to plan for most eventualities depending on the height when the engine fails - this is what you train for during climb out, crosswind, downwind, not flying too far away from the field to ensure you are always within gliding distance and all those other good points regarding airmanship, mnenomics and the like.
This is one subject where armchair theories must be ignored and practical, safe instruction adhered to.
It is very unfortunate that one man has proved this to be the case (assuming, with the greatest respect, that the observed flight was in fact a true account of events - I don't doubt it, but time and thorough investigation will prove the issue).
SITW
(FI)
No, no, no - don't even think about FSX as being a useful tool in these circumstances!
Okay you might make it from 200 feet on your computer, just like you can fly a B737 under the Runcorn bridge - but it is not how you're trained and it's NOT what is acceptable. Don't even put this kind of rubbish in people's heads, especially the more inexperienced.
Flying instructors (should) put a lot of effort into pointing out the suitable landing areas for the 'home' field, as well as general principles in the case of an EFATO. It is possible to plan for most eventualities depending on the height when the engine fails - this is what you train for during climb out, crosswind, downwind, not flying too far away from the field to ensure you are always within gliding distance and all those other good points regarding airmanship, mnenomics and the like.
This is one subject where armchair theories must be ignored and practical, safe instruction adhered to.
It is very unfortunate that one man has proved this to be the case (assuming, with the greatest respect, that the observed flight was in fact a true account of events - I don't doubt it, but time and thorough investigation will prove the issue).
SITW
(FI)
David will be sorely missed. A technical genius and a nice bloke.
I hope that someone else will carry on his development work on aircraft systems since it was one of the best pieces of kit ever invented.
R.I.P.
I hope that someone else will carry on his development work on aircraft systems since it was one of the best pieces of kit ever invented.
R.I.P.
No, no, no - don't even think about FSX as being a useful tool in these circumstances!
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Not wishing to add anything controvercial about the sad loss I post the following in the spirit that others may learn.
I have 28 full engine failures under my belt (used to test fly for a dodgy engineer!..long story..).The only time I bent the plane was the only time I put out a mayday.The height loss was significant due to the time taken and spoilt my choices by the time I had transmitted. I note that David made a mayday .
My advice to anyone is No.1) Fly the plane. No.2)Fly the plane. No.3) Fly the plane .
Unless you are in cruise at 5000ft s*d the mayday call. No one can respond quick enough to help you anyway .
I am not making any assumtions merely trying to stop anyone making the same mistake(as me) if they find themselves in this situation.
I have 28 full engine failures under my belt (used to test fly for a dodgy engineer!..long story..).The only time I bent the plane was the only time I put out a mayday.The height loss was significant due to the time taken and spoilt my choices by the time I had transmitted. I note that David made a mayday .
My advice to anyone is No.1) Fly the plane. No.2)Fly the plane. No.3) Fly the plane .
Unless you are in cruise at 5000ft s*d the mayday call. No one can respond quick enough to help you anyway .
I am not making any assumtions merely trying to stop anyone making the same mistake(as me) if they find themselves in this situation.
No.1) Fly the plane. No.2)Fly the plane. No.3) Fly the plane
David was a real gentleman and aviation will be all the poorer without him.
Avoid imitations
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Was this the same DM who used to own a Piston Provost and later, Beech Bonanza G-NEWT?
Avoid imitations
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Sorry to hear that, thankyou for the heads up.
