10000ft in a Warrior
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You'll be alright with the advice given on here. I just wanted to add that leaning a PA28 is a lot harder than a C172 which I've done a lot thanks to 40 hours of flying in Arizona. The friction on the lever, it's design, feel and the movement range makes the task practically impossible in some older PA-28 aircraft. You have to use two handles effectively. One hand as a safety guard against too much movement of the lever by the other hand. Otherwise it'll be oops, 
!
In the C172, you start rotating the knob anticlockwise at 3000ft, and simply adjust by a couple more rotations every 1000ft or so in the climb. Doing the opposite in the descent. So much more controlled and safer in a C172.
!In the C172, you start rotating the knob anticlockwise at 3000ft, and simply adjust by a couple more rotations every 1000ft or so in the climb. Doing the opposite in the descent. So much more controlled and safer in a C172.
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I just wanted to add that leaning a PA28 is a lot harder than a C172 which I've done a lot thanks to 40 hours of flying in Arizona. The friction on the lever, it's design, feel and the movement range makes the task practically impossible in some older PA-28 aircraft. You have to use two handles effectively. One hand as a safety guard against too much movement of the lever by the other hand. Otherwise it'll be oops, !
Why?
Are yo saying that a cherokee is harder to fly than a skyhawk?
The mixture is harder to adjust?
The throttle is harder to manipulate?
Place your hand on the throttle quadrant, rather than holding your hand over the mixture or throttle control, and manipulate the lever using the base of the lever, not the top...and you won't have any problems.
Due to the high angle of attack to get the best rate of climb, there will be reduced airflow over the engine and as such it will run at a hiher temperature, especially the rear cylinders.
I would suggest you may be better spending more time in the fully rich position, for the extra cooling.
Leaning may give you more power and a better rate of climb, but if it cooks the engine, then you wont need to worry about shock cooling on the way down.
I would suggest you may be better spending more time in the fully rich position, for the extra cooling.
Leaning may give you more power and a better rate of climb, but if it cooks the engine, then you wont need to worry about shock cooling on the way down.
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Having flown off the cricket pitch at Thorpeness my oppo David Cook flew his CFM Streak Shadow G-BONP to 27,000+ft [CAA approved] using a standard Rotax 532 two stroke. Landed back on the cricket pitch dead stick.
Just thought I would add that to the pile of altitude posts.
Just thought I would add that to the pile of altitude posts.
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Have been at 10K a few times in a 2 stroke rotax 582 powered X-Air. Get it up there, let it cool down at a low power setting and switch it off... great fun and helps keep your dead stick landings in order.
Its amazing how long you can hang around up there in a microlight with the engine turned off.
Its amazing how long you can hang around up there in a microlight with the engine turned off.
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Don't forget to leave your fountain pen(if you still have one)on the ground.Take it with you and it will leak all over your nice clean shirt/suit.Happened to me while looking for a decent horizon in the often hazy Manchester(EGCC)area,doing PPL training in a lunch break.Ground level pressure-QFE-1025,at 10,000 feet somewhat less.Oops.
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I was doing a trial lesson over Cairngorm once and as I was in a turn I flew into a bit of lift. I decided to circle over the same place and ride it up. Got a steady 1500fpm out of a standard PA28-161 from about 5000ft up to 10500ft then it died.
Variety is the spice of life so go for it but personally I'm happier much lower down.
Variety is the spice of life so go for it but personally I'm happier much lower down.
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Not quite 10k (it's the transition alt round here, so not avail..), but took a fully loaded 1109kg (it has an STC for nearly 50kg over standard MTOW for type) PA28-161 up that way twice at the weekend.
Out QNH1010, 43degrees (C) on ground. Long old slog to 8500 - something over 60 track miles, 1500 up under some clouds, 500 down in the gaps. never thought I'd be dolphin flying a spamcan. Worried quite a bit about temps; OAT +20 at 8500, still in the convection layer. Smoothed out later for a 30nm descent bottom of yellow arc as per poh - very little noticable cooling over the cruise temps. Really would've rather stayed on the ground.
Back QNH1013, 30deg on ground, much more pleasant. Climb somewhat more impressive too, down to 200fpm past about 6000, 100ish for the last bit to 9500. OAT +15, smooth, tailwind. leaned as appropriate, much more sensible temps on climb too.
It may have been more economical on the way out to stay low, but was meltingly hot - on the way back we traded a 20kt headwind for a 10kt tailwind above 6500.
Nav by VOR/NDB primarily with garmin moving map doubling to provide DME from Melbourne, and a DR/plog plan as the final (mixed winds making that a little less accurate than usual.
Out QNH1010, 43degrees (C) on ground. Long old slog to 8500 - something over 60 track miles, 1500 up under some clouds, 500 down in the gaps. never thought I'd be dolphin flying a spamcan. Worried quite a bit about temps; OAT +20 at 8500, still in the convection layer. Smoothed out later for a 30nm descent bottom of yellow arc as per poh - very little noticable cooling over the cruise temps. Really would've rather stayed on the ground.
Back QNH1013, 30deg on ground, much more pleasant. Climb somewhat more impressive too, down to 200fpm past about 6000, 100ish for the last bit to 9500. OAT +15, smooth, tailwind. leaned as appropriate, much more sensible temps on climb too.
It may have been more economical on the way out to stay low, but was meltingly hot - on the way back we traded a 20kt headwind for a 10kt tailwind above 6500.
Nav by VOR/NDB primarily with garmin moving map doubling to provide DME from Melbourne, and a DR/plog plan as the final (mixed winds making that a little less accurate than usual.
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I had a PA28-161 up to 14,300 QNH over East Anglia before - three main considerations (I haven't read previous posts), are biological, mechanical and meterological.
As previously mentioned, level off a couple of times in the climb and lean for optimum mixture (you'll be starting to run rough above about 11,000 full rich). To be honest, if you are a fit and healthy individual who doesn't smoke, you'll have no problems whatsoever at 10,000, indeed up to about 15,000 feet there will be no ill effects.
I smoke and continue to fly around 10,000, no problems.
And of course watch the weather - remember it takes a lot longer to descend from 10,000 than from 2-3,000 to get back under a closing cloudbase, and you really don't want to be glide descending from that altitude even with regular warmups, best to make a 'trip' of it and a nice powered descent right the way down again to avoid thermoshock on the engine, especially in the colder air higher up.
You'll be fine buddy, enjoy the view and take a camera ;-)
As previously mentioned, level off a couple of times in the climb and lean for optimum mixture (you'll be starting to run rough above about 11,000 full rich). To be honest, if you are a fit and healthy individual who doesn't smoke, you'll have no problems whatsoever at 10,000, indeed up to about 15,000 feet there will be no ill effects.
I smoke and continue to fly around 10,000, no problems.
And of course watch the weather - remember it takes a lot longer to descend from 10,000 than from 2-3,000 to get back under a closing cloudbase, and you really don't want to be glide descending from that altitude even with regular warmups, best to make a 'trip' of it and a nice powered descent right the way down again to avoid thermoshock on the engine, especially in the colder air higher up.
You'll be fine buddy, enjoy the view and take a camera ;-)
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Hmm. Around these parts, you ain't legally allowed above 10,000 without oxygen.
Nor, does it seem terribly smart as the results are somewhat insidious and not so detectable without some kind of blood oxygen monitor - but I don't wish to start an arguament on the matter!
Nor, does it seem terribly smart as the results are somewhat insidious and not so detectable without some kind of blood oxygen monitor - but I don't wish to start an arguament on the matter!
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Leaning may give you more power and a better rate of climb, but if it cooks the engine, then you wont need to worry about shock cooling on the way down.
The rough running of that engine, if left full rich at that altitude, even in the climb, will have you rethinking not leaning somewhat.
The slight cooling provided by a richer mixture will do nothing to prevent shock cooling, resulting from poor engine/aircraft handling technique. By closing the throttle quickly, and/or pushing the nose down, you can loose 100 degrees F of cylinder head temp in a few seconds. No amount of running rich can overcome this rapid cooling. Do not overlook the need for proper engine handling, even if you're running a little rich!
Pilot DAR
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If you're only going to 10,000ft, then oxygen really shouldn't be a problem.
If you decide to go higher, just be cautious. Don't spend all day up there, and come down if you start to feel light headed.
The symtoms will be increased if you are a smoker.
If you decide to go higher, just be cautious. Don't spend all day up there, and come down if you start to feel light headed.
The symtoms will be increased if you are a smoker.
If you're only going to 10,000ft, then oxygen really shouldn't be a problem.
Don't forget the time that it takes a Pa-28 to get from 8000' to 10,000'.
You'll be hypoxic before you even get there.
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Ok, some interesting attitudes to oxygen here, both blase, and paranoid.
From the mountain/high flying course I did a couple of years back, I'd offer the following:
It's quite possible to become hypoxic without really noticing. Don't rely on light headedness to detect. Symptoms are somewhat personal, and include cyanosis (look for your fingernails changing colour), felling of euphoria / well being etc. The only way to really know what's going on, and how it affects you are experience (hypobaric chamber), and/or a blood oxy monitor to see how your saturation's going.
I have met someone who claimed to experience onset of symptoms at 6-7000.. However 10,000ft is generally accepted as being about the limit for most folks. Some may be affected lower, most will be ok a bit higher. The (FAA?) recommends 6500 at night as your night vision is affected by lack of oxy.
When using oxygen I was told to put it on at 8000 in the climb; in Australia it's use is enshrined in the regs - Over 10,000 you are LEGALLY REQUIRED be puffing oxygen. Up to there you're ok. Given the attitude of aus legislators, I'd expect that to be reasonably conservative
I don't know what the situation is in the rest of the world.
I don't believe you should be hypoxic at 8000, or 10, no matter how long it takes to get there - in my most recent case, we cruised at 10k (well, 9,500) for something around 90 mins. Obviously it's not a perfect OK/Not OK, the effects increase with alt - in our case, the next avail level was FL115 - aside from the legality, and the issue of getting there, that would have been a bridge too far in my opinion.
From the mountain/high flying course I did a couple of years back, I'd offer the following:
It's quite possible to become hypoxic without really noticing. Don't rely on light headedness to detect. Symptoms are somewhat personal, and include cyanosis (look for your fingernails changing colour), felling of euphoria / well being etc. The only way to really know what's going on, and how it affects you are experience (hypobaric chamber), and/or a blood oxy monitor to see how your saturation's going.
I have met someone who claimed to experience onset of symptoms at 6-7000.. However 10,000ft is generally accepted as being about the limit for most folks. Some may be affected lower, most will be ok a bit higher. The (FAA?) recommends 6500 at night as your night vision is affected by lack of oxy.
When using oxygen I was told to put it on at 8000 in the climb; in Australia it's use is enshrined in the regs - Over 10,000 you are LEGALLY REQUIRED be puffing oxygen. Up to there you're ok. Given the attitude of aus legislators, I'd expect that to be reasonably conservative
I don't know what the situation is in the rest of the world.I don't believe you should be hypoxic at 8000, or 10, no matter how long it takes to get there - in my most recent case, we cruised at 10k (well, 9,500) for something around 90 mins. Obviously it's not a perfect OK/Not OK, the effects increase with alt - in our case, the next avail level was FL115 - aside from the legality, and the issue of getting there, that would have been a bridge too far in my opinion.
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In Canada use of oxygen required if between 10 and 13 thousand for more than 30 minutes, or any time over 13000. This could either be conservative, or way too lax, depending upon the health of the individual concerned. I argree completely, that as a regulatory "middleground", it is entirely appropriate. I've used the "Mountain High" oxygen during flight testing, and was very impressed. With the good equipment available today, there really is not excuse for not being safe.
I've had dopey (okay much more than usual for them) passengers at 8000' in the 310, and I crossed part of the Atlantic as the third pilot in Twin Otter at 15000 feet for 8 hours, with only the occasional breath of oxygen, if I wanted to venture to the cockpit to get it. Up there, if you do not exert yourself, you might be fine (certainly health and youth dependant), but any exertion, and you will probably pass out. Summer before last, several of us crossed the Atlantic in a DC-3 as passengers, under a doctor's direct supervision at 16000' with only occasional use of oxygen. We all did fine, including the doctor (he was 70 years old, and I suspect healthier than any of the rest of us!). We were all watching each other very carefully. The extreme for me without oxygen was a quick up to 17000' and down, in a Cessna 180 amphibian (neither I, or air traffic control thought it would go that high!) I was young, healthy, and dumb, and it was not a good idea. I would not repeat it without oxygen.
I do remind myself that their are people who live at 13000' and more, I bet they're healthier than I am!
Pilot DAR
I've had dopey (okay much more than usual for them) passengers at 8000' in the 310, and I crossed part of the Atlantic as the third pilot in Twin Otter at 15000 feet for 8 hours, with only the occasional breath of oxygen, if I wanted to venture to the cockpit to get it. Up there, if you do not exert yourself, you might be fine (certainly health and youth dependant), but any exertion, and you will probably pass out. Summer before last, several of us crossed the Atlantic in a DC-3 as passengers, under a doctor's direct supervision at 16000' with only occasional use of oxygen. We all did fine, including the doctor (he was 70 years old, and I suspect healthier than any of the rest of us!). We were all watching each other very carefully. The extreme for me without oxygen was a quick up to 17000' and down, in a Cessna 180 amphibian (neither I, or air traffic control thought it would go that high!) I was young, healthy, and dumb, and it was not a good idea. I would not repeat it without oxygen.
I do remind myself that their are people who live at 13000' and more, I bet they're healthier than I am!
Pilot DAR
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I do remind myself that their are people who live at 13000' and more, I bet they're healthier than I am!
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Isn't skiing just standing on two expensive boards, in expensive boots and expensive suit, at an expensive place, after an expensive ride up the hill, while gravity does all of the work?
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Many thanks for all your advice. It was clear skies the other day so I booked to go up in the afternoon with a couple of friends and made it to 10,000ft. 
As there were three of us it took a while to get up there - about 25mins. Towards the end the climb rate was down to about 450 fpm.We climbed at about 85kts to help cool the engine a bit more than at max rate, and levelled off a couple of times to give the engine a rest. I had a go leaning passing about 7000ft but there wasn't much difference, and so I left it at fully rich to help cooling. A few minutes after embarassing myself over the radio with "passing FL900..... err correction FL90" we levelled off over Bridlington at FL100 and leaning the engine gave a much more noticeable rise in rpm. Had a nice view of the east Yorkshire coast, but inland was covered in low level haze so we couldn't see much looking west. We then flew to Flamborough and over the coast before turning back. Coming back down took almost as long, descended at 2000rpm and about 85kts (about 500fpm).
I took a camera with me so I thought I'd put up some of the pictures (credit to ABZ777). All in all, it was great fun and on a clear day I'd be tempted to do it again. It felt much more tranquil than bimbling along at 3000ft, and having trained in the busy airspace around Farnborough, the freedom to go that high without needing any clearance is still a novelty.
As there were three of us it took a while to get up there - about 25mins. Towards the end the climb rate was down to about 450 fpm.We climbed at about 85kts to help cool the engine a bit more than at max rate, and levelled off a couple of times to give the engine a rest. I had a go leaning passing about 7000ft but there wasn't much difference, and so I left it at fully rich to help cooling. A few minutes after embarassing myself over the radio with "passing FL900..... err correction FL90" we levelled off over Bridlington at FL100 and leaning the engine gave a much more noticeable rise in rpm. Had a nice view of the east Yorkshire coast, but inland was covered in low level haze so we couldn't see much looking west. We then flew to Flamborough and over the coast before turning back. Coming back down took almost as long, descended at 2000rpm and about 85kts (about 500fpm).
I took a camera with me so I thought I'd put up some of the pictures (credit to ABZ777). All in all, it was great fun and on a clear day I'd be tempted to do it again. It felt much more tranquil than bimbling along at 3000ft, and having trained in the busy airspace around Farnborough, the freedom to go that high without needing any clearance is still a novelty.
