10000ft in a Warrior
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Honestly, 10k is not a big deal in pretty much any aeroplane....They used to think that if you drove over 30 MPH you'd die - but you don't. Same goes for flying "little" aeroplanes at 10,000 feet, they will all do it ok (unless they are fcuk'd). You have nothing to worry about 
Landing and taking off at high altitude is another matter though, not that you'll encounter that in the uk......
Landing and taking off at high altitude is another matter though, not that you'll encounter that in the uk......
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I got a VW powered Nipper up to 10k, it has no mixture but still made it. I have flown my Rotax powered machine up to 10k several times, and this also has no mixture control. Interesting that the LAA test now calls for a 5 min climb. I will be at around 7.5k at the end of 5 min so I will have to fly a x country to avoid CAS.
Do a cruse power decent and take your time. Touring Scotland or the Alps it is often necessary to get up to 10k as it is smooth even if the wind is not so favorable. You will wonder what all the fuss was about when you get down.
Rod1
Do a cruse power decent and take your time. Touring Scotland or the Alps it is often necessary to get up to 10k as it is smooth even if the wind is not so favorable. You will wonder what all the fuss was about when you get down.
Rod1
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Not sure if this is relevant to a PA 28, but the easiest way to get up to 10,000 and above is using wave over hills. Did this over the Preceli hills in Wales last Dec. N Winds of 10-15 knts can give a good updraft on the ridges, took my ATL upwards rapidly, assisted of course by the little engine. However a word of warning, if you take off at +2 degrees it's going to be -18 at 10,000 ft and odd things can happen...like frozen ailerons in my case. 
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Do it, you'll love the thill of seeing the first two needles returning to zero.
Having said that I doubt you'll bother to do it twice. Unless the vis is fab the view is pretty much the same as from 5000'.
If you are in something aerobatic you can have a fab time coming down.
Having said that I doubt you'll bother to do it twice. Unless the vis is fab the view is pretty much the same as from 5000'.
If you are in something aerobatic you can have a fab time coming down.
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FL100
Yep dont see a prob, just make sure clear of cloud, airspace etc...took us 2 hours to get to FL180, yes you heard right we picked a good day, researched and all the stuff associated with flight at that level and correctly equipped but in PA28 last 4000ft painfully slow.
NM
NM
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check your airspace (even if controlled, they'll probably give you a clearance of you ask),
Just find a nice bit of class G and enjoy.
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Flaps!
Islander - if rough air were to become a problem, pull them in! Do you perform a flapless approach if it's a bit bumpy?
Fright level - the whole point is a little extra drag allows some extra power while still descending. Cooling is a function of airflow (airpseed), and engine power, nothing else.
If you're actually going somewhere, a high ROD would be bad airmanship - why not use a cruise descent and get there faster. But really, if the whole point is to go to 10k, it's negotiable. Personally I don't buy the 500fpm thing - why do they bother building unpressurised a/c that can climb better than 500fpm? *My* ears don't have a problem at any ROD I've managed to achieve, even spinning. That will vary person to person, I suspect 500fpm is based on the very lowest common denominator. Obviously with pax you keep it sensible.
Kinda sorry I mentioned it...
Amen! Appart from maybe keeping an eye out for the signs of hypoxia, and heading down PDQ (nevermind the shock cooling) if they manifest.
Fright level - the whole point is a little extra drag allows some extra power while still descending. Cooling is a function of airflow (airpseed), and engine power, nothing else.
If you're actually going somewhere, a high ROD would be bad airmanship - why not use a cruise descent and get there faster. But really, if the whole point is to go to 10k, it's negotiable. Personally I don't buy the 500fpm thing - why do they bother building unpressurised a/c that can climb better than 500fpm? *My* ears don't have a problem at any ROD I've managed to achieve, even spinning. That will vary person to person, I suspect 500fpm is based on the very lowest common denominator. Obviously with pax you keep it sensible.
Kinda sorry I mentioned it...
Originally Posted by englishal
Honestly, 10k is not a big deal in pretty much any aeroplane....They used to think that if you drove over 30 MPH you'd die - but you don't. Same goes for flying "little" aeroplanes at 10,000 feet, they will all do it ok (unless they are fcuk'd). You have nothing to worry about 
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Islander - if rough air were to become a problem, pull them in! Do you perform a flapless approach if it's a bit bumpy?
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Amen! Appart from maybe keeping an eye out for the signs of hypoxia, and heading down PDQ (nevermind the shock cooling) if they manifest.
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Interesting but how high can you go? The Seneca Five twin has a service ceiling of 25000 feet.
At 20000 feet she is still climbing at 900 fpm. I have no doubts that on a good day 30000 feet would be achievable with that aircraft.
Maybe should go for a record
Pace
At 20000 feet she is still climbing at 900 fpm. I have no doubts that on a good day 30000 feet would be achievable with that aircraft.
Maybe should go for a record
Pace
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Just do it - the view is great.
Just fly normally, keep an eye on the temps and speeds (as you normally do) and have fun. Remember, there is nothing wrong with leveling off for a few mins if the temps do start to get a little low.
Drop a pic on PPRUNE when your done!
Its easier than mucking around at low level, if you pick the right day you will be above the weather so no icing concerns, nice and smooth, very few other aircraft around - especially in Golf (but those that are are likely to be fast!)
Weather, airspace, Ts and Ps, icing - should be all business as usual. Remember for absolute best RoC that Vy reduces by about 1kt every 1000ft (ish) - check your POH, but even sticking to your usual Vy, you should get up there eventually.
Once above about 5000ft, your engine is running at less than 75% power even at full throttle. Although not nessesary, this means you can fiddle about with the mitxture to your hearts content to achieve max RPM - you will have plenty of time on your hands ;-)
Just fly normally, keep an eye on the temps and speeds (as you normally do) and have fun. Remember, there is nothing wrong with leveling off for a few mins if the temps do start to get a little low.
Drop a pic on PPRUNE when your done!
Its easier than mucking around at low level, if you pick the right day you will be above the weather so no icing concerns, nice and smooth, very few other aircraft around - especially in Golf (but those that are are likely to be fast!)
Weather, airspace, Ts and Ps, icing - should be all business as usual. Remember for absolute best RoC that Vy reduces by about 1kt every 1000ft (ish) - check your POH, but even sticking to your usual Vy, you should get up there eventually.
Once above about 5000ft, your engine is running at less than 75% power even at full throttle. Although not nessesary, this means you can fiddle about with the mitxture to your hearts content to achieve max RPM - you will have plenty of time on your hands ;-)
For us here close to the alps, 10'000 ft is almost the natural habitat . With a lot of patience and a few tricks I got my old C150 up to 13'000 ft once briefly. It's fun, the view is great (in the alps at least) and if you are going places you MAY have an advantage in range and speed.
Most has been said. Mixer issues are an item of wide and wild discussions, in the end it comes down to the simple fact that engines like optimum mixture whenever they can get it. In my 150 the O200 would let me know quickly if it was over rich, leaning it was a question of watching the RPM and listening/feeling the engine. Peak RPM is mostly sufficiently exact for these engines, EGT is more comfortable. Some flight schools have a lot of fear of leaning, unwarranted and expensive. It would be close to running your car at full choke (remember those?).
Apart, some airports here even require leaning on the ground in order to get the necessary take off power. Samedan (LSZS) is at 5600 ft AMSL and can have up to 25degrees C in Summer.
Descent is fun time, you finally get some decent speeds into these animals. 500 fpm is good for the ears and comfortable, while delivering a few knots above the usual cruise speeds, often enough the only time you'll ever see the needle near the yellow arc.
Have fun and enjoy the view.
Best regards
AN2 Driver
. With a lot of patience and a few tricks I got my old C150 up to 13'000 ft once briefly. It's fun, the view is great (in the alps at least) and if you are going places you MAY have an advantage in range and speed. Most has been said. Mixer issues are an item of wide and wild discussions, in the end it comes down to the simple fact that engines like optimum mixture whenever they can get it. In my 150 the O200 would let me know quickly if it was over rich, leaning it was a question of watching the RPM and listening/feeling the engine. Peak RPM is mostly sufficiently exact for these engines, EGT is more comfortable. Some flight schools have a lot of fear of leaning, unwarranted and expensive. It would be close to running your car at full choke (remember those?).
Apart, some airports here even require leaning on the ground in order to get the necessary take off power. Samedan (LSZS) is at 5600 ft AMSL and can have up to 25degrees C in Summer.
Descent is fun time, you finally get some decent speeds into these animals. 500 fpm is good for the ears and comfortable, while delivering a few knots above the usual cruise speeds, often enough the only time you'll ever see the needle near the yellow arc.
Have fun and enjoy the view.
Best regards
AN2 Driver
Last edited by AN2 Driver; 16th Jan 2009 at 12:59.
It's really a non-event going to 10,000 feet in a Warrior. I flew them through my PPL training, and the only time I didn't get above 8500 were on city scenic flights.
Yeah, it takes a long time, particularly if its a 140hp puppy, but if you're going a long way, the higher TAS up there makes it worth while. (Check the winds, though).
In a few of my previous jobs, I was taking 182s to 10, 12, and 14,000 feet many times a day... provided you keep the engine warm, the descents are where you can have fun. Spiral-diving at 4000ft/min is a very entertaining way to get back to the ground again...
Doing it in a turbine makes life so much easier, when you don't have to worry about engine cooling - close the throttle, point the nose at the ground, and don't exceed VNE.
The thing that almost made my heart stop, was the comment on holding a pilot's license, but having never actually leaned the mixture
To me it beggars belief that someone could actually train a pilot and think that it was somehow acceptable to not lean! (this is a comment on your instructor, not you)
Yeah, it takes a long time, particularly if its a 140hp puppy, but if you're going a long way, the higher TAS up there makes it worth while. (Check the winds, though).
In a few of my previous jobs, I was taking 182s to 10, 12, and 14,000 feet many times a day... provided you keep the engine warm, the descents are where you can have fun. Spiral-diving at 4000ft/min is a very entertaining way to get back to the ground again...
Doing it in a turbine makes life so much easier, when you don't have to worry about engine cooling - close the throttle, point the nose at the ground, and don't exceed VNE.
The thing that almost made my heart stop, was the comment on holding a pilot's license, but having never actually leaned the mixture
To me it beggars belief that someone could actually train a pilot and think that it was somehow acceptable to not lean! (this is a comment on your instructor, not you)
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I grew up at a field elevation of about 5,000', and had typical field density altitudes for takeoff in the summer of around 8,500'. It was a mountainous area, with tops above 12,000', so typical flights in light, normally aspirated airplanes were very often above 10,000 MSL.
My best effort in a normally aspirated airplane was just shy of 18,000' in a Cessna 150. The airplane won't climb there on it's own, of course, but using thermal lifting or orographic lifting plus engine power (or what's left of it)...it will.
What had inspired me at the time was an article by Barry Schiff regarding setting up a light airplane with the a high glide ratio. He talked about setting up a light airplane with a low power setting to fly at approximately a 26:1 glide ratio to simulate a sailplane. He then discussed flying the airplane using soaring and thermally techniques and observing the altitude gain and performance. I happened to have a Cessna 150 available to play with, and spent about three and a half hours getting up there, and then back down.
If you're going to undertake that kind of a project, of course, have supplemental oxygen available; this should go without saying. If your'e accustomed to living at sea level, then even a climb to 10,000 might consider taking oxygen. It's not necessary, but your own tolerance depends on your physical condition, age, rest, etc. In the US, the FAA has long recommended oxygen above 10,000 in the daytime, and above 5,000' at night.
Yes, the engine must be leaned; any time a normally aspirated engine is being operated above 3,000' or so density altitude, the engine should be leaned.
There's nothing particularly magic about being at 10,000', but enjoy the trip. If it's not something you do all the time, then any new experience can be a bit of an adventure and enjoyable. Take some time when you get there and examine the airplane performance. Play with the mixture. Try different rates of climb in 5 knot increments, and compare it to the aircraft handbook performance. Pull the power back and try descents at different airspeeds, in five knot increments, note the rates of descent.
We typically flew older normally aspirated Cessna 182's to 15,000 or 16,000 with a full load of skydivers, all day long in the summer, on the weekends. A typical climb to altitude and descent ran about a half hour to 45 minutes, total.
A warrior or cherokee will get up there just fine.
My best effort in a normally aspirated airplane was just shy of 18,000' in a Cessna 150. The airplane won't climb there on it's own, of course, but using thermal lifting or orographic lifting plus engine power (or what's left of it)...it will.
What had inspired me at the time was an article by Barry Schiff regarding setting up a light airplane with the a high glide ratio. He talked about setting up a light airplane with a low power setting to fly at approximately a 26:1 glide ratio to simulate a sailplane. He then discussed flying the airplane using soaring and thermally techniques and observing the altitude gain and performance. I happened to have a Cessna 150 available to play with, and spent about three and a half hours getting up there, and then back down.
If you're going to undertake that kind of a project, of course, have supplemental oxygen available; this should go without saying. If your'e accustomed to living at sea level, then even a climb to 10,000 might consider taking oxygen. It's not necessary, but your own tolerance depends on your physical condition, age, rest, etc. In the US, the FAA has long recommended oxygen above 10,000 in the daytime, and above 5,000' at night.
Yes, the engine must be leaned; any time a normally aspirated engine is being operated above 3,000' or so density altitude, the engine should be leaned.
There's nothing particularly magic about being at 10,000', but enjoy the trip. If it's not something you do all the time, then any new experience can be a bit of an adventure and enjoyable. Take some time when you get there and examine the airplane performance. Play with the mixture. Try different rates of climb in 5 knot increments, and compare it to the aircraft handbook performance. Pull the power back and try descents at different airspeeds, in five knot increments, note the rates of descent.
We typically flew older normally aspirated Cessna 182's to 15,000 or 16,000 with a full load of skydivers, all day long in the summer, on the weekends. A typical climb to altitude and descent ran about a half hour to 45 minutes, total.
A warrior or cherokee will get up there just fine.
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Did FL120 once in a Pa28-161. Bit mushy up there. Found it setled at about 80kts. The countryside looks a bit different so be sure fix your position over the ground with vor or gps if you can. Lean off on the way up every 2000' for best performance. Keep the cylinders warm on the way down and don't forget to move the mixture knob forward again .
For added fun and a great view try it on a clear night, stunning (especially the first time).
. For added fun and a great view try it on a clear night, stunning (especially the first time).