C R M in private flying . . . . . .
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
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Very experienced airline instructor lost his medical, but argued that he hadn't lost his brain, and could instruct qualified pilots - who would undoubtedly be PiC - in the finer arts of instrument flying towards their I/R flt. test. No way, bureacracy has no sense of humour.
Said ex-airline guy could instruct to his hearts content.
He could not, however, be an examiner.
FAA, far far more practical.
But of course, you already knew this....
Join Date: Mar 2000
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I actually found the FAA check rides that I've done relatively difficult - mainly because of interference from well-wishing examiners who start pratting about with stuff during the trip. Blowing my whole perspective on situational awareness.
Actually, I had one of these FAA inspectors for my original issue of an ATPL in the mid-sixties.
Two FAA inspectors actually.
One air carrier guy to watch the general aviation guy....who watched me.
The air carrier inspector was moaning about how I had not supplied a DC-6 instead of an AeroCommander.
I managed to bypass the DC-6 and bring him a Lockheed Constellation two years later.
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Before the thread turns into a multi-crew bragging fest... Been reading this thread with interest. In my very limited experience (PPL with < 130 hours PIC), I have done a few long-ish flights with pilots as passengers and still find that a bit more scary than flying with "normal" passengers. Even the call "final is clear" before entering the runway surprised me, although I do see the merit in that. I've also been passenger in the RHS of a SEP, and I've twice been passenger in the RHS of a MEP (which I'm not qualified for) where the PIC was kind enough to let me handle the flying, navigation and radio during the whole flight, except for landing and T/O. I've even had a birdstrike on short final when I was PIC, but with a very experienced instructor sitting next to me. He let me handle the landing and was kind enough to do the R/T when I asked him to.
Together with reading this thread, I think I have come up with a few basic principles:
- If I would not be happy executing the flight on my own, or with a normal passenger, a pilot in the RHS is not going to make a difference in my go/no go decision regardless of his qualifications.
- I expect all passengers, including those who hold a pilots license, to help me with the lookout.
- I'm the commander of the aircraft, nothing happens without my say-so. I don't know multi-crew CRM procedures so uncommanded actions by the PNF scare me. Even if they're just presetting a frequency in the standby field.
- There are some specific duties that I'd want to share with someone else, if and when required:
* Your controls: fly the aircraft on suchandsuch altitude, on suchandsuch heading (or towards a distinctive landmark). Do not make turns or altitude changes unless I say so. Starts and landings I do myself in any case. Same for all the pre-takeoff checklists.
* Your R/T: Perform routine radio calls, but don't make decisions wrt. accepting clearances, changing routes etc unless we've discussed it.
* Your navigation: Happy if you keep your finger on the map but be prepared to brief me at any given moment, and in any case I want to know about any navigation fix we pass, and any heading/altitude change we need to make.
- In general: if the passenger takes on a duty, I expect him to keep me in the loop.
- Emergencies: are in principle mine to handle. But someone earlier on here mentioned that if there's a brain overload situation, it's best to let the passenger handle the relative standard stuff like flying the aircraft and talking to ATC, and the complex, aircraft-specific stuff, like restarting an engine, reconfiguring the electric circuits and so forth, could be handled by the person who is most familiar with the aircraft, and who most likely has best access to the relevant knobs and switches - ie. the person in the LHS.
I think both single-pilot and multi-pilot operations are very safe. It's when you start mixing these without expressing exactly what you want done, and how, that things get dangerous.
Together with reading this thread, I think I have come up with a few basic principles:
- If I would not be happy executing the flight on my own, or with a normal passenger, a pilot in the RHS is not going to make a difference in my go/no go decision regardless of his qualifications.
- I expect all passengers, including those who hold a pilots license, to help me with the lookout.
- I'm the commander of the aircraft, nothing happens without my say-so. I don't know multi-crew CRM procedures so uncommanded actions by the PNF scare me. Even if they're just presetting a frequency in the standby field.
- There are some specific duties that I'd want to share with someone else, if and when required:
* Your controls: fly the aircraft on suchandsuch altitude, on suchandsuch heading (or towards a distinctive landmark). Do not make turns or altitude changes unless I say so. Starts and landings I do myself in any case. Same for all the pre-takeoff checklists.
* Your R/T: Perform routine radio calls, but don't make decisions wrt. accepting clearances, changing routes etc unless we've discussed it.
* Your navigation: Happy if you keep your finger on the map but be prepared to brief me at any given moment, and in any case I want to know about any navigation fix we pass, and any heading/altitude change we need to make.
- In general: if the passenger takes on a duty, I expect him to keep me in the loop.
- Emergencies: are in principle mine to handle. But someone earlier on here mentioned that if there's a brain overload situation, it's best to let the passenger handle the relative standard stuff like flying the aircraft and talking to ATC, and the complex, aircraft-specific stuff, like restarting an engine, reconfiguring the electric circuits and so forth, could be handled by the person who is most familiar with the aircraft, and who most likely has best access to the relevant knobs and switches - ie. the person in the LHS.
I think both single-pilot and multi-pilot operations are very safe. It's when you start mixing these without expressing exactly what you want done, and how, that things get dangerous.
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Jesus, remind me not to go flying with you!!
Actually agree in principle with almost all you say, just not the way you say it.
As a pilot mil and civvy 3k+ hours, I would take the middle ground, if I am PIC then I would agree in advance exactly what I want another pilot to do as part of managing the flight.
Have often flown with enormously experienced other pilots, and, provided always let them know what I want from them, have NEVER felt intimidated by any of them but always taken the opportunity to learn from them (and occasionally they learn something from me - even if its only how NOT to do things!!)
Actually agree in principle with almost all you say, just not the way you say it.
As a pilot mil and civvy 3k+ hours, I would take the middle ground, if I am PIC then I would agree in advance exactly what I want another pilot to do as part of managing the flight.
Have often flown with enormously experienced other pilots, and, provided always let them know what I want from them, have NEVER felt intimidated by any of them but always taken the opportunity to learn from them (and occasionally they learn something from me - even if its only how NOT to do things!!)
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Three things come to mind here from my personal experiences.
1) I have a friend I regularly fly with, with him as PIC and vice versa. The interesting thing is that I own the aircraft (he is insured on it). And while I may impose operational limitations on him because of it (more things like "don't take off with less than 5 liters of oil", etc), once we're together on board if he's in the left seat, he's PIC. He's a bit hesitant at times, and once in a while will ask what I prefer that he does, and I will always reply "you're the PIC, it's your airplane". We also point out each other's mistakes. Sometimes he's a bit of a motormouth when the workload is high when I'm PIC (i.e. in a busy circuit) and I say with good humour "shut the **** up", and we have a good laugh about it, and sometimes I'll even glance and he'll reply "I guess I should shut the **** up".
2) Worst "shared command" experience (we all know THAT'S an oxymoron!). I had an instructor on board. For no other reason than he needed a ride to another airfield to recover one of the school's aircraft that got grounded by weather and I was looking for an excuse to fly. On final at that field, we were in a busy circuit. A Lear was barking up our tail though we had priority, and I was trying to fly an expedited circuit. So I flew a fast flaps-up final at about 105 knots (about 20 knots over my normal approach speed). On my bird (Beech C23), Vfe is 96 knots and when at 105 my "instructor" passenger decided he was PIC and went to pull in my flaps (manual flaps). I shouted at him to get his hand off the fecking flaps, we're above the white arc. He replied it didn't matter, we weren't THAT much over the white arc, the plane could take it, etc. I pulled rank. My plane, and I am PIC, the flaps come in at 96 kts or below. I have also not flown with him since.
3) I have been working a lot on cockpit discipline recently especially with the checklist; I started this after the Madrid flapless MD80 crash on take-off. I figure if an experienced crew can screw up, I could screw up even more. I now call out the title of the checklist "e.g. Before Start Checklist", call out the items and their settings, and point to them and touch them or yank on them (e.g. primer locked on the before t.o. checklist). And when a checklist is complete I call out "Before takeoff checklist complete". Minor thing but it forces me to think "is it really complete, did I miss something" and do a quick double take.
I think in SEL aircraft like mine, it's really more of a cockpit discipline thing than CRM, but one can always use a spare set of hands and eyes as long as the demarcation of duties is clear.
1) I have a friend I regularly fly with, with him as PIC and vice versa. The interesting thing is that I own the aircraft (he is insured on it). And while I may impose operational limitations on him because of it (more things like "don't take off with less than 5 liters of oil", etc), once we're together on board if he's in the left seat, he's PIC. He's a bit hesitant at times, and once in a while will ask what I prefer that he does, and I will always reply "you're the PIC, it's your airplane". We also point out each other's mistakes. Sometimes he's a bit of a motormouth when the workload is high when I'm PIC (i.e. in a busy circuit) and I say with good humour "shut the **** up", and we have a good laugh about it, and sometimes I'll even glance and he'll reply "I guess I should shut the **** up".
2) Worst "shared command" experience (we all know THAT'S an oxymoron!). I had an instructor on board. For no other reason than he needed a ride to another airfield to recover one of the school's aircraft that got grounded by weather and I was looking for an excuse to fly. On final at that field, we were in a busy circuit. A Lear was barking up our tail though we had priority, and I was trying to fly an expedited circuit. So I flew a fast flaps-up final at about 105 knots (about 20 knots over my normal approach speed). On my bird (Beech C23), Vfe is 96 knots and when at 105 my "instructor" passenger decided he was PIC and went to pull in my flaps (manual flaps). I shouted at him to get his hand off the fecking flaps, we're above the white arc. He replied it didn't matter, we weren't THAT much over the white arc, the plane could take it, etc. I pulled rank. My plane, and I am PIC, the flaps come in at 96 kts or below. I have also not flown with him since.
3) I have been working a lot on cockpit discipline recently especially with the checklist; I started this after the Madrid flapless MD80 crash on take-off. I figure if an experienced crew can screw up, I could screw up even more. I now call out the title of the checklist "e.g. Before Start Checklist", call out the items and their settings, and point to them and touch them or yank on them (e.g. primer locked on the before t.o. checklist). And when a checklist is complete I call out "Before takeoff checklist complete". Minor thing but it forces me to think "is it really complete, did I miss something" and do a quick double take.
I think in SEL aircraft like mine, it's really more of a cockpit discipline thing than CRM, but one can always use a spare set of hands and eyes as long as the demarcation of duties is clear.
