do you use gps
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Specifically, how do you see GPS being examined?
But there is a different take on all this: do you want to examine competency in the abstract, or do you want to examine competency for the actual job as it is done in reality and as it would be done in a realistic emergency procedure?
The present system does the former. If your vac pump packs up and you go partial panel, you don't tell ATC you have a problem (because you are a proper JAA licensed hero and this character-forming event will only help to grow the proper JAA certified hairs on your chest) and you bust your gut trying to make the best of a bad job.
In the latter case, you tell ATC, tell them you are partial panel, that your responses will be less timely, that you need either vectors, or time to set up your handheld GPS, etc. They are paid to assist you and only a fool would do less than take full advantage of this. And if you have a total loss of electrics then you better have a handheld GPS all set up already because the ICAO procedure is to fly the filed route (after 7 minutes on current heading if in UK airspace and on vectors, or whatever) all the way to the end, and turn up at the IAF at the filed time, and land.
Well, I suppose that is the nub of the argument.
Specifically, how do you see GPS being examined? As part of the enroute/diversion? Any specific techniques? Would the examiner just switch it off mid flight? Crucially I would want to see somebody handle an unexpected enroute diversion. The problem I perceive with skills tests is that mine was rather benign in that the diversion was usually clear of CAS as the crow flies, I would think the examiner would be looking for the student to show they are aware of the proximity of CAS and how they use the unit to establish that information.
Naturally, I would interested in what the examiner would do if the student called off the test because the database was out of date or the unit was faulty!
Specifically, how do you see GPS being examined? As part of the enroute/diversion? Any specific techniques? Would the examiner just switch it off mid flight? Crucially I would want to see somebody handle an unexpected enroute diversion. The problem I perceive with skills tests is that mine was rather benign in that the diversion was usually clear of CAS as the crow flies, I would think the examiner would be looking for the student to show they are aware of the proximity of CAS and how they use the unit to establish that information.
Naturally, I would interested in what the examiner would do if the student called off the test because the database was out of date or the unit was faulty!
When something goes wrong - I lose sight of the surface, the GPS reception goes, the VOR goes US.... I will work with what's left.
I'd venture that an appropriate skills test would probably include normal navigation with (nominally) all of what's on board the aircraft. But, let's say a possible test scenario would be a simulated electrical failure forcing a diversion without any navaids.
No doubt if you put a group of examiners together they'd come up with something much better (or at-least much more detailed) than that, but it's a starting point.
W.R.T. an up to date database - we all carry up to date charts, so have access to known up to date data - if the GPS database is out of date, so what, chart takes precendence. I'd expect any pilot, especially a test subject, to know the validity of whatever's on board.
G
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I'd venture that an appropriate skills test would probably include normal navigation with (nominally) all of what's on board the aircraft
Testing competence on "everything installed" also interestingly sidesteps what would be vigorous objections from the flight training industry to making GPS mandatory. If the school does not install GPS then it won't be tested and they don't need to teach it. But if they want modern minded customers they will have to install GPS.... I don't know if the FAA thought it through this way or it was just an accident but it is a pretty clever trick.
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The present system does the former. If your vac pump packs up and you go partial panel, you don't tell ATC you have a problem (because you are a proper JAA licensed hero and this character-forming event will only help to grow the proper JAA certified hairs on your chest) and you bust your gut trying to make the best of a bad job.
He later followed up with 'discovering', right as I was missing the approach, the failed pump had started a fire! Trying to get to the extinguisher while going around at minimums on partial panel got me my moneys worth - I had asked for a challenging review !!! more fool me.
Loran A anyone
Consol anyone ? Nantucket 194 Kc - or was it Mb ? getting confused by Bill Gates.
Recently flying a microlight with a fitted GPS, couldn't be bothered to re-programme it to GoTo another airfield to get a cross bearing, so pulled a handheld out of my pocket - had to laugh, used to navigate a 707 with a sextant, now using 2 GPS's - in a microlight !!
Flying with the open cockpit and leather helmet, I confuse the approaching commuter airline guys by telling them I'm bearing XXX at XX nm from our airfield, which is equipped with only an NDB. Couldn't do it accurately enough without GPS.
Won't let my students use GPS until they can prove that they can read a map. Once had a co-pilot tell me to fly a hdg. of 310 leaving Singapore for Australia. That's what the INS told him, he said.
No harm using the new toys, but it's a bit like using a computer before you can use a pen, or do sums ! Learn the basics first.
Avoid imitations
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No harm using the new toys, but it's a bit like using a computer before you can use a pen, or do sums ! Learn the basics first.
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I fly a Cub (did fly Tiger Moths, Austers etc.). So it's daytime good VFR for me. Following line features (roads esp) seems to work. I keep a note on the 1:250,000 chart as to where I am.
Seems to work and I've clocked up about 500 hours (just think what else I might have done with the money...).
As to a GPS, I now and again use my car one. Managed to buy an aviation program plus charts for it and find that it's a useful aid to let me know where I'm at.
I like being able to set up a route with waypoints and match that against my chart though I'm getting to know SE England well enough to recognise where I am.
In conclusion, use a GPS as a secondary aid in VFR? Yes. Why not?
Roger
Seems to work and I've clocked up about 500 hours (just think what else I might have done with the money...).
As to a GPS, I now and again use my car one. Managed to buy an aviation program plus charts for it and find that it's a useful aid to let me know where I'm at.
I like being able to set up a route with waypoints and match that against my chart though I'm getting to know SE England well enough to recognise where I am.
In conclusion, use a GPS as a secondary aid in VFR? Yes. Why not?
Roger
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When designing user interfaces the professional makes sure he is very clear whether he is aiming at an all-day-every-day user or an occasional user, and will come up with different designs. Or, perhaps, a device with an optional hand-holding mode.
...
I suppose it could be that there are GPS units which are well designed for the occasional user, and the club I rent from has simply bought and installed the wrong kit. But I've never read any reviews of anything that claims to be designed for the occasional user...
...
I suppose it could be that there are GPS units which are well designed for the occasional user, and the club I rent from has simply bought and installed the wrong kit. But I've never read any reviews of anything that claims to be designed for the occasional user...
Then opened the user manual.
Its touch-screen user interface idioms are vastly more intuitive that Garmin's rotary cursor thingy. Pictures here... Michael’s Flight Training Diary Blog Archive Bendix-King AV8OR
m
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Once had a co-pilot tell me to fly a hdg. of 310 leaving Singapore for Australia. That's what the INS told him, he said.
You would have got there all right, provided you had enough fuel
Actually, we probably wouldn't have, he'd cocked it up totally, wasn't giving the reciprocal ( which would have worked ) but I agree that we would eventually have got back to Singapore.
Moral ? Don't rely on gadgets !
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Once had a co-pilot tell me to fly a hdg. of 310 leaving Singapore for Australia. That's what the INS told him, he said.
Moral ? Don't rely on gadgets !
In reality, one obviously should not depart until one has dug out and studied the SID and worked out how it will join to the filed route, etc, so your co-pilot's reciprocal heading error would have ended in a disaster pretty fast (in a mountain perhaps?) and is nothing whatsoever to do with gadgets
With a bit of luck though, your life might have been saved by another useless gadget: GPWS
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IO540
GPWS is useless now that there is EGPWS
I think Exspeedbird illustrates a valid point though - preoccupation with the gadgets without thinking outside the (black) box. Your D***head point is also valid. But sadly the world is full of them, even in aviation.
GPS is great. It's pilots that are the problem.
GPWS is useless now that there is EGPWS
I think Exspeedbird illustrates a valid point though - preoccupation with the gadgets without thinking outside the (black) box. Your D***head point is also valid. But sadly the world is full of them, even in aviation.
GPS is great. It's pilots that are the problem.
IO540 - leaving Singapore ......... I agree with all your points, I guess I owe you a better explanation, just trying to illustrate a point.
New co-pilot, under training, new gadget even to me ( INS/PMS pre. GPS but similar logic for the user ) SID cancelled by ATC, 'go to' somewhere unfamiliar - just a Lat. and Long. in fact, black night, I started turning towards the Antipodes and asked him to enter the new waypoint - manually, none of this computer pre-programmed stuff, still getting safely airborne, climb power, flaps 20 etc. and he made a complete horlicks of it.
At top of climb I explained that I wasn't upset at his INS cock-up, learning curve etc. but asking for a heading of 310 was inexcusable. Get the big picture first.
Old navigator instructor once told me to stop trying to do a maths exam in a rattling steel cabinet, to pretend I was sitting on the tail driving the thing over a map - big picture.
Not many GPWS triggers around Singapore - until you hit the water !
Cheers.
New co-pilot, under training, new gadget even to me ( INS/PMS pre. GPS but similar logic for the user ) SID cancelled by ATC, 'go to' somewhere unfamiliar - just a Lat. and Long. in fact, black night, I started turning towards the Antipodes and asked him to enter the new waypoint - manually, none of this computer pre-programmed stuff, still getting safely airborne, climb power, flaps 20 etc. and he made a complete horlicks of it.
At top of climb I explained that I wasn't upset at his INS cock-up, learning curve etc. but asking for a heading of 310 was inexcusable. Get the big picture first.
Old navigator instructor once told me to stop trying to do a maths exam in a rattling steel cabinet, to pretend I was sitting on the tail driving the thing over a map - big picture.
Not many GPWS triggers around Singapore - until you hit the water !
Cheers.
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but asking for a heading of 310 was inexcusable.
Actually another pro-GPS argument as it vastly improves your situational awareness, if you know how to use it. To me, this is the crux: know the equipment in your a/c.
ATC gave you a lat/long as a DCT, when airborne??
This is all getting too nit-picky, my original comment was that one should have a mental picture of which way to turn - the big picture - not blindly obey commands from an electronic navigation 'aid' - however sophisticated, which after all is only as intelligent as the person who programmes it ! G.I.G.O.
Remember, I'm talking nearly 25 yrs ago, GPS wasn't even a gleam in Michaelangelos' eye then - but Michaelangelos' World hasn't changed, we have, and slavish adherence to the commands of electronic gadgets is the way to trouble. This thread started with a question about whether one uses GPS or the Mark 1 eyeball and a chart. Both have their uses, but both need to be understood.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 4th Jan 2009 at 04:38.
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I think we are coming back to the same old chestnut in all these pro/anti GPS threads: have you got a decent moving map unit?
If no, then GPS gives you no more than an accurate KNS80 or similarly functional INS box.
If yes, then you get excellent situational awareness handed to you on a plate and it is pretty hard to get lost.
At night or in IMC, one's SA is dependent wholly on instrument interpretation and there are loads of ways to get it wrong with the old VOR methodology. INS delivers RNAV (area navigation) capability to any point (which I suppose in the old days would not have been in the database but would have had to be entered as lat/long) but unless this is combined with a moving map, you can still make a gross error. When GPS first came in, it made this process super accurate but there are still heavy jets flying which have a GPS but no moving map...
There are also lots of private pilots flying with cheap GPSs which have no moving map; you can pick them up in camping shops for peanuts. These people often turn out to be in the "anti" camp. I have never known anybody using a decent unit being anything other than delighted with the benefits.
Unfortunately the interfaces are not standardised and one needs to do some serious ground work to get familiar before using the thing for real. I have a Garmin 496 yoke-mounted (mainly for its "EGPWS" feature which is wired to the intercom for audio warnings) and while I have programmed routes into it, it is too clumsy and in an emergency I would use it only as a DCT XXXXX box where XXXXX is an airways intersection or a navaid.
One needs to keep a mental picture but when there are no visual cues even the best people can make a mistake and turn the wrong way etc.
A good moving map display is the key.
If no, then GPS gives you no more than an accurate KNS80 or similarly functional INS box.
If yes, then you get excellent situational awareness handed to you on a plate and it is pretty hard to get lost.
At night or in IMC, one's SA is dependent wholly on instrument interpretation and there are loads of ways to get it wrong with the old VOR methodology. INS delivers RNAV (area navigation) capability to any point (which I suppose in the old days would not have been in the database but would have had to be entered as lat/long) but unless this is combined with a moving map, you can still make a gross error. When GPS first came in, it made this process super accurate but there are still heavy jets flying which have a GPS but no moving map...
There are also lots of private pilots flying with cheap GPSs which have no moving map; you can pick them up in camping shops for peanuts. These people often turn out to be in the "anti" camp. I have never known anybody using a decent unit being anything other than delighted with the benefits.
Unfortunately the interfaces are not standardised and one needs to do some serious ground work to get familiar before using the thing for real. I have a Garmin 496 yoke-mounted (mainly for its "EGPWS" feature which is wired to the intercom for audio warnings) and while I have programmed routes into it, it is too clumsy and in an emergency I would use it only as a DCT XXXXX box where XXXXX is an airways intersection or a navaid.
One needs to keep a mental picture but when there are no visual cues even the best people can make a mistake and turn the wrong way etc.
A good moving map display is the key.
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IO540,
I agree that a moving map GPS when used properly is a great tool for VFR flying. It's not the only way to do it and "hiking" GPS can be used very effectively, again when used properly. As can good old fashioned visual nav. Like I said, it's the pilots that are the weak link in the GPS chain.
I am not sure how useful moving map is with full IFR flight. I am not sure how much heavy metal uses full moving map. FMS provides more than adequate "magenta line" nav, threshold to threshold, with terrain clearance being provided by planning, IFR, ATC and of course EGPWS. But that is not really relevant for virtually all private flying.
I agree that a moving map GPS when used properly is a great tool for VFR flying. It's not the only way to do it and "hiking" GPS can be used very effectively, again when used properly. As can good old fashioned visual nav. Like I said, it's the pilots that are the weak link in the GPS chain.
I am not sure how useful moving map is with full IFR flight. I am not sure how much heavy metal uses full moving map. FMS provides more than adequate "magenta line" nav, threshold to threshold, with terrain clearance being provided by planning, IFR, ATC and of course EGPWS. But that is not really relevant for virtually all private flying.