postings about accidents

[172driver]

Firstly this is a PILOT forum not a bereaved relatives forum.Should it be true that such people do read these forums then they have to understand that what we say is speculation and not especially fact.

Amen to that Pace

Nobody forces the 'bereaved' (real or imagined) to read PPrune. If you can't handle speculation - stay away (or start 'BAFF' - the Bereaved Aviators' Families Forum).

[Fuji Abound]

It is natural and good that we do discuss the possibilities because while 90% may be off the mark that 90% may still include possible reasons for a simular accident.

Aside from the relatives, there is something inherently pointless about hypothetical discussion. Perhaps it has something to do with my training as a scientist and perhaps it is why I don’t read the Sun.

Of course you can take just about any factor and surmise it might have been involved in an accident - it could have hit another aircraft, a spar might have failed, the pilot may have passed out, he could have been drunk, but what would the point be? If the forecast was nearly CAVOK the pilot might have gone into a bit of cloud, but in reality he almost certainly didn’t.

In short, far more useful and productive to restrict speculation to the facts, to what we know about the accident, and what factors might realistic have been involved. Not least this shows we might know what we are talking about.

I would hope our community is a little better able to rise above the sensational Sun style reporting.

[mm_flynn]

The glacial speed of releasing the facts encourages the speculation. I think it is only natural for people to think about 'what if' when some significant (and normally tragic) incident brings it to mind. Much less compelling when you read about it a year or two years later mixed into a list of relatively minor events and removed from the shock of the event.

[IO540]

I think one learns far more from the internet than from other sources.

[DavidHoul52]

Refraining from insulting the dead or apportioning blame without knowing all the facts does not mean we should not speculate about possible causes.

And as been pointed out this is a pilots forum. It is not the media. If there is any place to discuss an accident surely it is here.

I emphasize again that one can go too far with being "sensitive" towards the bereaved. They appreciate your condolences but they also have a need to talk about the deceased and the circumstances surrounding their death. If they want to be left alone they are free to do just that. No one is forcing them to log in to Pprune.

In any discussion of any accident there are going to be points raised and within minutes a posting by someone who disagrees. This in itself creates a lot more balance than what one would find in the media.

Consensus on PPrune? Never happens!

[wsmempson]

I think the clue here, for any freinds, relations, colleagues etc. who log-on to this site to see what is being said, is in the name of the site; I think that if I logged on to a site which described itself as a "rumour networks", I would expect to see a variety of opinions and rumours being discussed - not all of them pleasant or factually correct: Such is the nature of a "rumour network".

I think that it is important for us to discuss these accidents in a frank and open way - especially when many of the topics under discussion are live issues which are relevant to all of us.

Frankly, if I plummet out of the sky into a puppy-farm run by nuns tomorrow, do feel free to speculate - I couldn't give a toss and neither will my rellies - and if it stops someone else repeating my mistake, so much the better.

[Fuji Abound]

Well obviously the pilot was drunk, clearly he had flown into a cloud without an instrument rating, I bet the aircraft's C of A had expired, the weather was dreadful, obvioulsy he was lacking in currency, in fact the classic spiral spin accident waiting to happen - there that should cover most of the usual possibilites - all we have to do now is work out which accident it was and who the pilot was.

I love a good rumour.

Goodness knows why we have a go at the press when they mention the local school and the white knuckle moments before the pilot narrowly missed the play ground - there is probably more basis in fact in what they have to say than us so called informed pilots.

Never let get a good rumour get in the way of fact based, mature and balanced discussion - thats what I say.

Oh and when the friends and relatives have a bit of a page through here on the basis that it is a Professional Pilots Rumour Network and they might read an informed account of what could have gone wrong they should jolly well expect us professionals to rumour that their nearest and dearest commrad in arms of ours, now that he is in no position to defend himself, is free game for us to speculate he was a complete **** - based on - ah yes, I know, not a lot.

Very uplifting and edifying I must say.

What is so wrong staying with the facts? What satisfaction or benefit is there in making it up?

[madflyer26]

Fuji Abound,

Alas someone with a reasonable and considered post with regards to posts on accidents.

There appears to be many pilots claiming moral high ground and berating the pilot or pilots on the Oban thread. I just wonder how many of them have flown or driven after a night where alcohol has been consumed. No person is perfect or infallible and we all make mistakes and some ultimately pay with their life. It's a little crass to use the words like ''he got what he deserved'' this has no place on this forum and suggests that the posters are taking some sort of satisfaction out of the accident. It could be said that the pilot did flaunt the rules and took unnecessary risks but he didn't set out to kill his wife and daughter. Being a local pilot of North Connel it's my opinion on the day of the accident the weather was the main factor in leading to the crash. All other factors wouldn't have helped but to dissect them in detail detracts from the most likely and probable cause.

I do concur that discussion is healthy and promote thought, and hopefully challenges a pilot to look at his own style of flying thus preventing a similar accident. But personal attacks on dead pilots is a touch spineless and shows the type of people who post on here under the cover of anonynimity. It wouldn't be nice for this mans surviving daughter to read some of the posts that have been written on the Oban thread clearly attacking a dead man, speaks volumes for these people.

Regards MF26

[S-Works]

There appears to be many pilots claiming moral high ground and berating the pilot or pilots on the Oban thread. I just wonder how many of them have flown or driven after a night where alcohol has been consumed

Indeed, I asked the question several posts ago and it went unanswered.

While I have no doubt the alcohol contributed to the incident it seems that the other factors have greater blame.

Take aside the medical and alcohol issues.

We have an untrained pilot attempting a flight in IMC using the AP as the tool. This failed and as the pilot was untrained to deal with the issue control of the aircraft was last and game over. The fact that the pilot was flying illegally both in terms of medical and alcohol are ancillary factors in the bigger picture. Imagine a scenario, father wife and daughter, out on a happy family outing in scotland have dinner together, a couple of bottles of wine and a late night. Early morning weather is poor but pressing appointments mean they 'need' to get home, oh well lets give it a shot, the forecast is clearer south and we have the AP. Off they go and the AP failure results in disaster. Taking aside the accident itself is the rest of the scenario one close to home for many people?

So who is going to answer my post and admit to flying with a hangover?

[Pace]

It could be said that the pilot did flaunt the rules and took unnecessary risks but he didn't set out to kill his wife and daughter.

Madflyer

No neither did the football star who drank because his girlfriend was seeing someone else, slept for two hours and then decided to drive to see his girlfriend and have it out with her.

The result of that drive was that he killed two innocent children, destroyed their lives and has probably wrecked the life of their Mother.

I am sure he is a lovely chap in normal circumstances but still got sent to prison for seven years and has ruined his career as a footballer. he had the same alcohol levels as this Pilot.

Yes we all do silly or stupid things but equally we have to live with the consequences if they go wrong. Especially in aviation it is an unforgiving mistress at the best of times.

Mix into aviation the absurd cocktail that this pilot did and I am sure the odds were pretty small of a successful outcome to the flight.
Vacuum failures occur I had one solid IMC years ago in a single but any competant IR pilot will identify that and deal with it. This pilot was not competant and sadly innocent people were relying on his competancy and descision making for their safety.

Pace

[PompeyPaul]

Quote

So who is going to answer my post and admit to flying with a hangover?

Same question was posed at a flight safety evening at my local flying club. Nobody put their hand up. Then a couple of instructors admitted they had once, then a bunch of other people admitted it, then most people in the room (some 100+ pilots) put their hand up.

I did on one occasion, haven't since and plan never to do it again.

Before I did my PPL I really had no idea that alcohol stuck around in your system so long. I wonder how many people on the roads, in the morning, are actually drinking and driving, without realising it, having had beers the night before ?

5 pints of Stella is 15 units. You start @ 19:00 means you are not clear until 10:00 the next day. If you got up at 7:00 to drive somewhere then you are well over the limit.

[englishal]

Fuji has some good points as usual.

I think that we should refrain from insulting but not refrain from questioning. By that I mean statements like "what a pillock he was taking off into OC 200'" is an insult because to some, OC at 200' is a calculated risk and normally safe. For a new PPL it would indeed be stupid but for a 1000 hr IR pilot it could be a non event. On the other hand, asking about "it was 200' OC, was he qualified to go" would not be insulting the dead.....the dead don't care, it is their families that would remember.

However one thing that I have learned in almost 9 years of flying is that in 80-85% of accidents, the loose nut at the wheel is to blame (pilot). When the accident investigators can't find an answer, it is usually because there is no reason for the aeroplane to crash.......

I used to implicitly trust pilots who had more experience than me, thinking that they probably knew best. That changed Christmas Eve several years ago when my friend and had-been CPL / ME instructor flew into a mountain killing all 5 (& two visiting children) onboard in IMC . Now I ALWAYS question, and is why I like to question on Pprune when accidents happen.

[madflyer26]

Pace,

I agree with most of your post but what grips me is the self righteous attitude of some people on this subject. I am sure there is plenty of examples of people inadvertently killing loved ones but it's rather sad to be picking one factor from an accident and using it as an excuse for shaming the dead. I am certain if the guy could speak from the dead he would agree that he made an arse of his decision making process but he can't and he has paid along with his wife and daughter.

There probably is many questions that will go unanswered with this case but it's fair to say that the weather was the biggest factor attributing to the accident. Pilots can argue all day and night about all the other casual factors but bottom line the weather brought about the demise of this aircraft and this is what we should discuss and learn from.

Regards MF26

[collectivefriction]

If a low hours Cirrus pilot decides, before the AAIB report is published, that despite being in a state of the art aircraft that he wont chance it in marginal VFR conditions and hence possibly saves his and others lives - then all the speculation is worth it. Irrespective of what was is finally found to be the cause in this sad accident.

If we post here and speculate then a large number of Pilots WILL read it and someones life MAY be saved as a result. Contrast this against the possibility that one, very unfortunate, pilots family MIGHT read a thread and subsequently they MIGHT be upset by what they read.

Not speculating does none of us any favours. We all know that it is speculation and we all know that the likely cause may be far removed from the theories proferred on these and other forums.

Speculate away I say, and to those who are offended I say try and look beyond what is being said and understand why it is being said.

[Fuji Abound]

If a low hours Cirrus pilot decides, before the AAIB report is published, that despite being in a state of the art aircraft that he wont chance it in marginal VFR conditions and hence possibly saves his and others lives - then all the speculation is worth it. Irrespective of what was is finally found to be the cause in this sad accident.

I think you have missed my point.

If you know the pilot had low hours, inadequate training and evidence that pilot error may have caused the accident then it is reasonable to speculate that these factors may have been causal - if you don’t have the evidence it is rumour mungering, and you might just as well say the pilot was probably drunk, or he was known to be erratic.

As pilots I suspect most of us know the usual suspects in an accident - pretty pointless to select a few items off the suspect list and suggest they could be factors. Being pilots I would hope we might take a more analytical approach - but as I said earlier nothing like a quick bit of personality assassination or holier than though rebuke - Bose’s point I think.

Of course you can do this in anonymity on here, but would you do it if you were the AAIB examiner meeting with the relatives?

The relatives dont have to read this forum. If the press decide to publish some unfounded scandal about your personal life you dont have to read it. You dont even need to read it when friends tell you your mate is widely rumoured on PPruNe to have been drunk in charge.

Here is a question the relatives ask a lot - how do you know that? How do you know the pilot lost control? How do you know the engine quit? How do you know the aircraft entered a spin?

I know .. .. ..

.. .. .. we thought we would make it up to spice things up a bit.

I know it might seem more exciting, but perhaps this is one occasion it would be more responsible to stay with the facts.

BTW recent evidence is all the campaigns telling you smoking will kill you is probably counter productive - perhaps telling pilots that if they are flying drunk they are complete tw***s and will kill themselves is equally counter productive - so dont think you are necessarily doing your peers a good turn.

There are more effective ways.

[IO540]

We should discuss these matters pretty freely. I am sure most pilots who participate on here (actively or not) learn a lot here. I have certainly learnt a lot from the internet - far more than from the rather sterile world of the flight training establishment which in any case tends to turf you out when they can see you have no more bits of paper to go for.

I do however wish that pprune was moderated more, to completely eliminate the crude personal attacks which have given it such a bad name in some places. This isn't hard to do IMHO - the rules would be pretty clear.

As regards accident discussions, calling a pilot a pillock or whatever for flying in such and such weather doesn't add anything to knowledge.

[S-Works]

I do however wish that PPRuNe was moderated more, to completely eliminate the crude personal attacks which have given it such a bad name in some places. This isn't hard to do IMHO - the rules would be pretty clear.

Then perhaps we should think about that before embarking on our own little private message campaigns and sharing personal information on individuals just because we may feel we may have been wronged in the past.

and yes all those people we think we are befriending and trying to help out with such information are just as quick to stab us in the back and take great delight in telling where the information came from........

If we want rules then we have to play by them......

[vanHorck]

Emotions come into things.....

I started this thread but was also a poster on the Oban accident where I said the pilot was a disgrace to the flying community.

Why did I do this!?

I guess the combination of alcohol, invalid license, no medical and flight into IMC without the proper rating realy angered me more than I expected.

I would never fly with an invalid license just like i would never fly or drive with any alcohol in my blood, but I guess I am the exception to the rule maybe? I dont drink much anyway...

The interresting thing is that I took the high ground on what (not) to post but actually broke my own rule.... Sorry... Call if Forum-itis

On the Oban issue, let me refrase: My personal opinion is that flying with excess alcohol or with any alcohol in the blood whatsoever is totally unacceptable. It is also my opinion that flying without a valid medical or lapsed license is not a wise thing to do. I do of course feel sorry for those who lost loved ones. I am sure they will also remember the good things these people did in their lives

[Slopey]

I don't recall seeing any posts by relatives on any of the accident threads recently - if they don't already frequent here, then they're not likely to stumble on it by chance, unless directed. Granted, if they do then wish to complain they're unlikely to do it in the thread, and complain to management instead, but that's their prerogative to do so, and for the mods to take the action they deem fit (after all, it's their train set).

As a low hours pilot myself, I greatly value the speculation - even it if turns out subsequently not to be a causal factor in the accident, it always gets you thinking about other issues, and I'm careful to ensure that the "swiss cheese" factor doesn't strike my own flying - all the better for being reinforced by the various threads on here.

I don't see anything wrong with an unbiased view or speculation on the cause of an accident by other flyers - it goes without saying that personal attacks or slander is unacceptable, but comments repeating known facts can't be out of place if the information is correct and in the public domain.

So, I for one benefit greatly from the discussion/speculation/knowledge passed on in these threads, and hope they continue. To not speculate or discuss an incident denies everyone an opportunity to ensure that something similar doesn't happen to them, and it's not something you can get anywhere else.

(and no, I've never flown with a hangover, and specifically avoid all alcohol if I expect to be flying the next day - I fully intend to keep it up!)

[IO540]

sharing personal information on individuals

I've never done anything like that, bose x; in fact I know hardly anything about you. That seriously sticky situation you got yourself into on flyer.co.uk (thread now deleted, I've noticed) was entirely your own doing over the years, and I am sure you will agree that the less said about that the better