Nightmare on second solo
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Thanks BP. I certainly intend to get my radio licence at a similar time to going cross country, but in ~80 flights the radio in any glider I fly (if one is even fitted) has never been switched on. Very different to PPL as you say.
Out of interest I checked my "Bronze and Beyond" book (a well-endorsed book for glider pilots in the transition from first solo to early cross country flying) - there is a section on landing out at airfields- it mentions that landing on a runway is preferable to landing alongside one, due to the unknown state of the surroundings to the runway (potholes etc).
It does mention the importance of radioing your intentions and checking for other traffic in the circuit though, and of pulling your glider off the runway as soon as possible.
Out of interest I checked my "Bronze and Beyond" book (a well-endorsed book for glider pilots in the transition from first solo to early cross country flying) - there is a section on landing out at airfields- it mentions that landing on a runway is preferable to landing alongside one, due to the unknown state of the surroundings to the runway (potholes etc).
It does mention the importance of radioing your intentions and checking for other traffic in the circuit though, and of pulling your glider off the runway as soon as possible.
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Well, the potholes argument applies to outlandings too. Something glider pilots do not have a problem with.
Anyway, you'll find that most power pilots have not given a second thought to glider operations, and won't realize something about glider operations, even if it is bloody obvious if you think about it.
Most power pilots will therefore expect a glider that just landed on the runway, to vacate at the earliest opportunity, like all powered aircraft do. They'll be very surprised to see the hood open on the runway, the pilot get out and attempt to move his glider off the runway manually.
In a busy power circuit, spacing is timed so that nr. 2 is on short final just as nr. 1 vacates. A glider in the circuit is fine. It behaves more or less like a powered aircraft. But if it doesn't vacate the runway as quickly as a powered aircraft, it screws up the spacing, forcing go-arounds and such. Unlike glider ops, the runway in power ops is always for the exclusive use of one aircraft at a time. Runway occupied means go-around.
If you ever have to land at the runway which is normally used for power traffic, and there are aircraft in the circuit, may I suggest you contact the tower/info/radio beforehand and ask them to have a few helping hands standby to help you vacate the runway ASAP? I know gliders are a bitch to handle on the ground solo, particularly if there's a bit of wind, but one extra person to hold a wingtip makes it easy.
Anyway, you'll find that most power pilots have not given a second thought to glider operations, and won't realize something about glider operations, even if it is bloody obvious if you think about it.
Most power pilots will therefore expect a glider that just landed on the runway, to vacate at the earliest opportunity, like all powered aircraft do. They'll be very surprised to see the hood open on the runway, the pilot get out and attempt to move his glider off the runway manually.
In a busy power circuit, spacing is timed so that nr. 2 is on short final just as nr. 1 vacates. A glider in the circuit is fine. It behaves more or less like a powered aircraft. But if it doesn't vacate the runway as quickly as a powered aircraft, it screws up the spacing, forcing go-arounds and such. Unlike glider ops, the runway in power ops is always for the exclusive use of one aircraft at a time. Runway occupied means go-around.
If you ever have to land at the runway which is normally used for power traffic, and there are aircraft in the circuit, may I suggest you contact the tower/info/radio beforehand and ask them to have a few helping hands standby to help you vacate the runway ASAP? I know gliders are a bitch to handle on the ground solo, particularly if there's a bit of wind, but one extra person to hold a wingtip makes it easy.
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I think it's a BZ to the stude who, when faced with a situation for which he was totally un-trained, got out and walked away, and caused no harm to anyone else. A big raspberry to the glider pilot who stoofed big time, and was lucky not to get chewed up by a fast-spinning propellor.
I'd love to have heard the "re-briefing". Sounds like a "your hat, my office, no beverages" type of event
I'd love to have heard the "re-briefing". Sounds like a "your hat, my office, no beverages" type of event
Avoid imitations
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Full Sutton has an ATZ. The glider pilot didn't comply with the ANO with regard to entering the ATZ, namely he failed to make the compulsory radio call or to comply with the existing traffic pattern. Who is paying for the repairs to the Cessna?
Insurance i think
a day later and another glider did exactly the same
he landed without any notice against the active traffic... i dont think there were many in the circuit at the time 
a day later and another glider did exactly the same
he landed without any notice against the active traffic... i dont think there were many in the circuit at the time
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I wonder what you would have done?given that the glider pilot stated he did not see the other aircraft we can assume that he didn't land towards it on purpose,he is in sink and going down,probably somewhat nervous at the thought of landing out and in a high workload situation.Are you really saying he should not enter the atz when the runway is under him? He can't open up and go-around.
The student,in the same situation handled it well in my opinion.But I would not want to have been in iether position and certainly don't feel comfortable apportioning blame!
The student,in the same situation handled it well in my opinion.But I would not want to have been in iether position and certainly don't feel comfortable apportioning blame!
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we can assume that he didn't land towards it on purpose
I find it hard to believe that there wasn't time for that in a glider - he positioned for a right hand circuit to 04, after all. At glider speeds he must have had several minutes between deciding to land at FS and getting on the ground. Everyone here should be able to tune a radio eg to 121.5 and put out a call whilst flying a (practice) forced landing pattern with a high rate of descent.
Perhap for B Certificate and beyond (ie gliding outside the home circuit) glider pilots should be taught a few choice phrases for the radio and how to use the thing. I am sure his rebriefing from his CFI covered some of these points!
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The adage ''Every landing you walk away from is a good one and one where the aircraft is still flyable is a great one'' springs to mind.
A good outcome to a potential serious incident and I hope the chap in question continues with his training. I would imagine that he has learnt a lot from this in particular that normally gliders whilst committed to approach can't go around unless there is a pylon mounted engine. In hindsight I am sure he would concur that if engine power was still available that a go around with a right turn would have possibly been the better option. With that said considering his experience a go around with low level turn could have excaberated the situation leading to stall spin.
This is no way a criticism and I commend him for landing the aircraft with out injury and dealing with a situation that would probably disturb even the most experienced of aviators.
Regards MF26
A good outcome to a potential serious incident and I hope the chap in question continues with his training. I would imagine that he has learnt a lot from this in particular that normally gliders whilst committed to approach can't go around unless there is a pylon mounted engine. In hindsight I am sure he would concur that if engine power was still available that a go around with a right turn would have possibly been the better option. With that said considering his experience a go around with low level turn could have excaberated the situation leading to stall spin.
This is no way a criticism and I commend him for landing the aircraft with out injury and dealing with a situation that would probably disturb even the most experienced of aviators.
Regards MF26
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Everyone here should be able to tune a radio eg to 121.5 and put out a call whilst flying a (practice) forced landing pattern with a high rate of descent.
Full Sutton Radio will not be listening on 121.5, and knowing the type of traffic that typically frequent non-towered airfields, neither will any of the traffic.
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Are you really saying he should not enter the atz when the runway is under him?
Pocklington is only four miles from Full Sutton so I would have thought the glider pilot should have thought about this local radio frequency well before this incident, especially as he was relatively well experienced.
In any event, hopefully the publication of this report will serve it's designed purpose, namely to allow others to learn from the mistakes made, which could have had far more serious consequences.
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You misunderstand me BackPacker.
I was saying that all the pilots of powered aircraft on this website (whether PPL, ATPL, military etc) should easily be able to select a frequency and make a quick radio call while under pressure. The most obvious example would be selecting an appropriate frequency, such as 121.5, calling a Mayday while flying a forced landing pattern, under pressure and with a high rate of descent. No-one here would have had a licence issued if they couldn't do that.
Therefore, I suggest it's not too much to ask for the 250hr glider pilot to have selected the Full Sutton frequency, made a call similar to that in my last post, whilst flying a circuit to land. I was not saying he should have contacted 121.5, but that still would be better than nothing.
I was saying that all the pilots of powered aircraft on this website (whether PPL, ATPL, military etc) should easily be able to select a frequency and make a quick radio call while under pressure. The most obvious example would be selecting an appropriate frequency, such as 121.5, calling a Mayday while flying a forced landing pattern, under pressure and with a high rate of descent. No-one here would have had a licence issued if they couldn't do that.
Therefore, I suggest it's not too much to ask for the 250hr glider pilot to have selected the Full Sutton frequency, made a call similar to that in my last post, whilst flying a circuit to land. I was not saying he should have contacted 121.5, but that still would be better than nothing.
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Okay, not 121.5 then but the Full Sutton frequency. How would he know its frequency? Gliders don't normally use an info frequency like London info, so they can't ask there. And looking it up on the map, then selecting it, while in a high sink situation and trying to spot traffic at an unfamiliar airfield... Kinda hard to do.
Furthermore, the radios I've seen in the gliders I flew all were of a rather old design, with no standby frequency, and individual pushbuttons for each digit. And due to cockpit layout and the way you sit (lie) in it, they were just not quite within reach. Not an excuse, but possibly a factor.
Now to be honest, I'm not trying to make up excuses for this pilot to land on the wrong runway, unannounced. I think he should have never gotten near or over the ATZ in the first place. So from what I can see his first mistake was losing situational awareness, or maybe even getting lost completely. From that point on, it all went downhill. But one of the factors in that downhill slide is, in my humble opinion, the way the glider training curriculum simply ignores the whole concept of VHF radio until you're well into the x-country stage. And then still radio is virtually only used if a controlled airspace transit is called for, not to do circuit calls at the landing site.
Furthermore, the radios I've seen in the gliders I flew all were of a rather old design, with no standby frequency, and individual pushbuttons for each digit. And due to cockpit layout and the way you sit (lie) in it, they were just not quite within reach. Not an excuse, but possibly a factor.
Now to be honest, I'm not trying to make up excuses for this pilot to land on the wrong runway, unannounced. I think he should have never gotten near or over the ATZ in the first place. So from what I can see his first mistake was losing situational awareness, or maybe even getting lost completely. From that point on, it all went downhill. But one of the factors in that downhill slide is, in my humble opinion, the way the glider training curriculum simply ignores the whole concept of VHF radio until you're well into the x-country stage. And then still radio is virtually only used if a controlled airspace transit is called for, not to do circuit calls at the landing site.
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Okay, not 121.5 then but the Full Sutton frequency. How would he know its frequency?
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How would he know its frequency?
Fail to plan, plan to fail.
The trouble with some glider pilots is that they believe being a good stick and rudder guy is the job description of a pilot, whereas it is much, much more.
Glider pilots with power experience are generally much safer to be around in my opinion, as they have a better ability to understand and balance the workoad required.
Go around with a shallow turn to the right would have been the best option, however I would not expect that from a 19hr solo student.
Let me play devil's advocate for a minute here;
For obvious reasons gliders have right of way and he landed on the east side of runway 04 according to the report.
Now, had a look at Google Earth, he could have landed on the shorter grass strip leading to the hangar in the middle.
Where was the student's instructor? Did he have a handheld radio ?
Could he have warned the student?
What is somewhat bothersome is that nobody seemed to have seen each other.
Let me play devil's advocate for a minute here;
For obvious reasons gliders have right of way and he landed on the east side of runway 04 according to the report.
Now, had a look at Google Earth, he could have landed on the shorter grass strip leading to the hangar in the middle.
Where was the student's instructor? Did he have a handheld radio ?
Could he have warned the student?
What is somewhat bothersome is that nobody seemed to have seen each other.
Radio use by glider pilots
As a glider pilot myself I was dissmayed to read the AAIB report re the actions of the glider pilot.
Some observations.
He (the glider pilot) planned to fly the task, Pocklington -Elvington-Full Sutton-Pocklington. He was therefore planning to fly over the stub of Church Fenton MATZ and then Full Sutton ATZ. Basic common sense says that if you are using active airfields as turnpoints you must anticipate that you may have to land at them.
Reference to his half mil map would have given him both radio frequencies, either in the air or before he set off. Although not mandatory, it would have been sensible to call Church Fenton to say he was over their MATZ or to request a MATZ penetration (it was a Wednesday so he could expect them to be flying).
If on the very edge of Full Sutton ATZ he should have been at 2,000 ft at least, otherwise he is about to enter it.
'Massive sink' might be experienced for a time then followed by some lift (it was the 4th of June so it seems unlikely he had flown into the lee side of mountain wave when east of York). Therefore if the sink he flew into caused him to land immediately perhaps he was already near circuit height. If so, and he chose FS he was probably well into their ATZ.
Earlier post have highlighted the fact that glider pilots dont have the same RT training as power pilots until going cross/country. My experience is that we dont get it even then. I had to take the RT course at Leeds/Bradford in order get my RT operators licence as no-one at my club thought it necessary. I found the 'practical' part of the test very difficult, after all we dont get the same exposure to even just hearing RT transmitions as power pilots do. But it was well worth it. I wouldn't dream of not calling a gliding site for runway-in-use let alone an aerodrome. I would like to see RT procedure included in glider training before any pilot is cleared by his CFI to fly solo cross country.
One final point. I know the CFI at The Wolds Gliding Club at Pock and have huge respect for him. I'm sure the pilot got a very thorough debrief.
Some observations.
He (the glider pilot) planned to fly the task, Pocklington -Elvington-Full Sutton-Pocklington. He was therefore planning to fly over the stub of Church Fenton MATZ and then Full Sutton ATZ. Basic common sense says that if you are using active airfields as turnpoints you must anticipate that you may have to land at them.
Reference to his half mil map would have given him both radio frequencies, either in the air or before he set off. Although not mandatory, it would have been sensible to call Church Fenton to say he was over their MATZ or to request a MATZ penetration (it was a Wednesday so he could expect them to be flying).
If on the very edge of Full Sutton ATZ he should have been at 2,000 ft at least, otherwise he is about to enter it.
'Massive sink' might be experienced for a time then followed by some lift (it was the 4th of June so it seems unlikely he had flown into the lee side of mountain wave when east of York). Therefore if the sink he flew into caused him to land immediately perhaps he was already near circuit height. If so, and he chose FS he was probably well into their ATZ.
Earlier post have highlighted the fact that glider pilots dont have the same RT training as power pilots until going cross/country. My experience is that we dont get it even then. I had to take the RT course at Leeds/Bradford in order get my RT operators licence as no-one at my club thought it necessary. I found the 'practical' part of the test very difficult, after all we dont get the same exposure to even just hearing RT transmitions as power pilots do. But it was well worth it. I wouldn't dream of not calling a gliding site for runway-in-use let alone an aerodrome. I would like to see RT procedure included in glider training before any pilot is cleared by his CFI to fly solo cross country.
One final point. I know the CFI at The Wolds Gliding Club at Pock and have huge respect for him. I'm sure the pilot got a very thorough debrief.
Not surprised they didn't see other as once on short final you tend to focus on the landing spot until the flare and look up the runway and get a nasty surprise
I was once doing circuits and witnessed the a/c ahead come quite close on rollout to another a/c that had landed in the opposite direction. Heard nothing on the radio.
Now for the power types suddenly faced with an opposite landing glider: The rollout is maybe 50 yards and can be less; so if you can stop on the first half of the runway there will be no problems.
If the glider pilot comes from a busy field, he/she will have been schooled to get the glider off the runway ASAP. It's not hard to do; pick up the tail to swing it around; then push or pull. The glider won't go straight without help, but you can move about even a two-seater single-handed.
I was once doing circuits and witnessed the a/c ahead come quite close on rollout to another a/c that had landed in the opposite direction. Heard nothing on the radio.
Now for the power types suddenly faced with an opposite landing glider: The rollout is maybe 50 yards and can be less; so if you can stop on the first half of the runway there will be no problems.
If the glider pilot comes from a busy field, he/she will have been schooled to get the glider off the runway ASAP. It's not hard to do; pick up the tail to swing it around; then push or pull. The glider won't go straight without help, but you can move about even a two-seater single-handed.
Avoid imitations
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Hear, hear. 
well said