Beware landing at Farnborough
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Perhaps I'm missing the point here...
It is their airport and they can charge what they want. If they have severely limited allowable movements then they surely have to make what they can out of each one. Farnborough is well known to be a bizjet haven and why not?
If you don't like what they charge, don't go there - intentionally or 'not' intentionally....
It would also appear that they will listen and act accordingly to genuine diversions. Perhaps they also know that commercial pilots like to 'try it on' and get away with what they can.
I think BEagle's point may be that you wanted to go to that area fairly seriously (perhaps pax to deliver, commercial or not) and you knew the chances to get into Fairoaks were slim. You chose to land at Farnborough and then complain about the landing fee? Your choice - as you say, you could have landed anywhere in the UK with the fuel on board, so why there?
Perhaps in your want to help PPLs you could have made the thread about the dangers of setting off for a destination where the weather was forecast to prevent a successful arrival...?
Incidentally, I saw the Seneca parked on the ramp during an organised visit to Farnborough Radar and ATC. A nicer, more friendly bunch of people you could not hope to meet. The Vulcan is parked there awaiting a brake pack change - an all FOC courtesy of TAG. Looks like they are kind to the people who deserve a bit of charity....
It is their airport and they can charge what they want. If they have severely limited allowable movements then they surely have to make what they can out of each one. Farnborough is well known to be a bizjet haven and why not?
If you don't like what they charge, don't go there - intentionally or 'not' intentionally....
It would also appear that they will listen and act accordingly to genuine diversions. Perhaps they also know that commercial pilots like to 'try it on' and get away with what they can.
I think BEagle's point may be that you wanted to go to that area fairly seriously (perhaps pax to deliver, commercial or not) and you knew the chances to get into Fairoaks were slim. You chose to land at Farnborough and then complain about the landing fee? Your choice - as you say, you could have landed anywhere in the UK with the fuel on board, so why there?
Perhaps in your want to help PPLs you could have made the thread about the dangers of setting off for a destination where the weather was forecast to prevent a successful arrival...?
Incidentally, I saw the Seneca parked on the ramp during an organised visit to Farnborough Radar and ATC. A nicer, more friendly bunch of people you could not hope to meet. The Vulcan is parked there awaiting a brake pack change - an all FOC courtesy of TAG. Looks like they are kind to the people who deserve a bit of charity....
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It is the local governments/councils that set ridiculously low movement caps that treat a jet the same as a light piston. It almost forces the airport into being jet only. (Which in no way excuses the practice of some airports that are not capacity constrained that price or administer GA out just to simplify their lives)
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BEagle "whilst such cowboy activity continues to infest our skies" suggest you wind your neck in and live and let live - we have enough people thinking they are the police without you adding your worthless comments 
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Farnborough has been 'sold out' on weekend slots for a while (but has just recently had this allocation extended by the council) and I believe they are closing in on their total allocation. If they didn't actively discourage certain classes of aircraft (i.e. us) they would be at their limit for weekdays as well.
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So lets see:
Food prices have risen in our country faster than any other. 75% of the food business is controlled by four companies. Of course its their supermarkets - they should be able to charge what they like.
NATS have the monopoly on our air traffic services. There are many an airport that would like to offer a radar assisted approach service. NATS will provide the feed - at a cost - around £100K I gather. Ah yes, our airspace, our government’s license, but their monopoly - of course they should charge what they like.
Take a look at the airports around Fairoaks. Consider for a moment the number with ILS procedures - there aren’t many. Now factor in a strong northly wind and see how many you are left with. Ah yes, I forgot, their ILS, they should charge what they like.
Capitalism at its best - the trouble is it doesn’t work when a few are allowed to control the market to the detriment of the consumer. It is within the grant of the CAA to license airports and within their grant to regulate how the facilities are used - airports such as Farnborough should not be permitted to ban singles (for which there is absolutely no justification) and should not be permitted to impose charges that deny access to the majority.
Fortunately even capitalism recognises monopolies are dangerous - it is a shame so far as we pilots are concerned that the government has not seen fit to limit organisations such as NATS and some licensed aerodrome providers from charging what they like. Kid yourself not, there aren’t the market forces to keep prices in check - these organisations can charge what they like because there isnt any competition.
Food prices have risen in our country faster than any other. 75% of the food business is controlled by four companies. Of course its their supermarkets - they should be able to charge what they like.
NATS have the monopoly on our air traffic services. There are many an airport that would like to offer a radar assisted approach service. NATS will provide the feed - at a cost - around £100K I gather. Ah yes, our airspace, our government’s license, but their monopoly - of course they should charge what they like.
Take a look at the airports around Fairoaks. Consider for a moment the number with ILS procedures - there aren’t many. Now factor in a strong northly wind and see how many you are left with. Ah yes, I forgot, their ILS, they should charge what they like.
Capitalism at its best - the trouble is it doesn’t work when a few are allowed to control the market to the detriment of the consumer. It is within the grant of the CAA to license airports and within their grant to regulate how the facilities are used - airports such as Farnborough should not be permitted to ban singles (for which there is absolutely no justification) and should not be permitted to impose charges that deny access to the majority.
Fortunately even capitalism recognises monopolies are dangerous - it is a shame so far as we pilots are concerned that the government has not seen fit to limit organisations such as NATS and some licensed aerodrome providers from charging what they like. Kid yourself not, there aren’t the market forces to keep prices in check - these organisations can charge what they like because there isnt any competition.
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And Pace, please tell me which airlines these pilots of you acquaintance fly for, so that I can make a positive effort to avoid flying with them.
Do lighten up a bit
Will give you one tiny example. You are flying a jet you are held at FL330 but really want higher, FL370 or FL390 to reduce your fuel burn or get better winds. You state you are experiencing a pocket of turbulence or some other excuse not that you want to save fuel.Asking not to take a turn because you hope for a more direct routing and stating your reason as avoiding weather is another.
There are many ways pilots work the system and if you dont believe that what world do you fly in??
Pace
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And Pace, please tell me which airlines these pilots of you acquaintance fly for, so that I can make a positive effort to avoid flying with them.
do lighten up a bit. Every airline and corporate pilot I know uses techniques for getting higher cruising levels or more direct routings and much more and very much do legally play the system.Put the appropriate posting in the relevant forum and you may get your eyes opened somewhat
Take care
Pace
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Fuji
So lets see:
Food prices have risen in our country faster than any other. 75% of the food business is controlled by four companies. Of course its their supermarkets - they should be able to charge what they like. RELEVANCE
NATS have the monopoly on our air traffic services. WRONG... go do some research as NATS is split into NERL and NSL. There are many an airport that would like to offer a radar assisted approach service. NATS will provide the feed - at a cost - around £100K I gather. OOOhh where did you pluck that number from? And how much do you think providing and maintaining radar costs? Ah yes, our airspace, our government’s license, but their monopoly - of course they should charge what they like. INCORRECT...... go do some research. Come back when you can demonstrate that you can understand the regulators role and CP2/3
Take a look at the airports around Fairoaks. Consider for a moment the number with ILS procedures - there aren’t many. Instrument approaches at Lasham, Biggin, Odiham, Benson, Oxford, Southend. oops forgot to mention Farnborough, Southampton etc etc Now factor in a strong northly wind and see how many you are left with. Benson, Southamton and Biggin seem perfect... Ah yes, I forgot, their ILS, they should charge what they like.
Capitalism at its best - the trouble is it doesn’t work when a few are allowed to control the market to the detriment of the consumer. It is within the grant of the CAA to license airports and within their grant to regulate how the facilities are used - airports such as Farnborough should not be permitted to ban singles (for which there is absolutely no justification) and should not be permitted to impose charges that deny access to the majority.
Fortunately even capitalism recognises monopolies are dangerous - it is a shame so far as we pilots are concerned that the government has not seen fit to limit organisations such as NATS and some licensed aerodrome providers from charging what they like. NATS have nothing to do with the landing fees at any of the UK airports....... Kid yourself not, there aren’t the market forces to keep prices in check - these organisations can charge what they like because there isnt any competition. Oh dear, if only the rest of your waffle wasn't so incorect people would listen to your rant!
So lets see:
Food prices have risen in our country faster than any other. 75% of the food business is controlled by four companies. Of course its their supermarkets - they should be able to charge what they like. RELEVANCE
NATS have the monopoly on our air traffic services. WRONG... go do some research as NATS is split into NERL and NSL. There are many an airport that would like to offer a radar assisted approach service. NATS will provide the feed - at a cost - around £100K I gather. OOOhh where did you pluck that number from? And how much do you think providing and maintaining radar costs? Ah yes, our airspace, our government’s license, but their monopoly - of course they should charge what they like. INCORRECT...... go do some research. Come back when you can demonstrate that you can understand the regulators role and CP2/3
Take a look at the airports around Fairoaks. Consider for a moment the number with ILS procedures - there aren’t many. Instrument approaches at Lasham, Biggin, Odiham, Benson, Oxford, Southend. oops forgot to mention Farnborough, Southampton etc etc Now factor in a strong northly wind and see how many you are left with. Benson, Southamton and Biggin seem perfect... Ah yes, I forgot, their ILS, they should charge what they like.
Capitalism at its best - the trouble is it doesn’t work when a few are allowed to control the market to the detriment of the consumer. It is within the grant of the CAA to license airports and within their grant to regulate how the facilities are used - airports such as Farnborough should not be permitted to ban singles (for which there is absolutely no justification) and should not be permitted to impose charges that deny access to the majority.
Fortunately even capitalism recognises monopolies are dangerous - it is a shame so far as we pilots are concerned that the government has not seen fit to limit organisations such as NATS and some licensed aerodrome providers from charging what they like. NATS have nothing to do with the landing fees at any of the UK airports....... Kid yourself not, there aren’t the market forces to keep prices in check - these organisations can charge what they like because there isnt any competition. Oh dear, if only the rest of your waffle wasn't so incorect people would listen to your rant!
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Oh and for what it's worth, £360 is extorniate but given that they have x number of slots of course (which they normally run out of near year end - ask Blackbushe!) they want the highest paying aircraft in there. One light twin in and out is two movements gone... which could be a nice BBJ!
Pace, sorry to say that if you got airborne when the TAF turned out as bad as you feared then there is little point complaining - esp as you admit that you could go anywhere in the South. No doubt that your client was billed for the extra costs?
Pace, sorry to say that if you got airborne when the TAF turned out as bad as you feared then there is little point complaining - esp as you admit that you could go anywhere in the South. No doubt that your client was billed for the extra costs?
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RELEVANCE
The dangers of uncontrolled monopolies
WRONG... go do some research as NATS is split into NERL and NSL.
NATS Holdings owns both NERL and NSL - they are wholly owned subsidiaries.
OOOhh where did you pluck that number from?
NATS actually - of course they could have plucked it from somewhere.
And how much do you think providing and maintaining radar costs?
The radar heads have to be provided. How much do you think a feed costs? Have you been to Calais. You should if not. Ask how their feed works and how much they pay for it.
INCORRECT...... go do some research. Come back when you can demonstrate that you can understand the regulators role and CP2/3
I do.
Benson, Southamton and Biggin seem perfect
Southampton does not have a northly ILS, you obviously have never used Benson, Biggin is also not northly.
NATS have nothing to do with the landing fees at any of the UK airports.......
I never said they did.
Oh dear, if only the rest of your waffle wasn't so incorect people would listen to your rant!
Your claim as to my factual incorrectness seems to have gone disastrously wrong.
You may well disagree with regulating access to airports so that GA is not effectively excluded, but you should avoid debating the facts, unless you can do a better job.
The dangers of uncontrolled monopolies
WRONG... go do some research as NATS is split into NERL and NSL.
NATS Holdings owns both NERL and NSL - they are wholly owned subsidiaries.
OOOhh where did you pluck that number from?
NATS actually - of course they could have plucked it from somewhere.
And how much do you think providing and maintaining radar costs?
The radar heads have to be provided. How much do you think a feed costs? Have you been to Calais. You should if not. Ask how their feed works and how much they pay for it.
INCORRECT...... go do some research. Come back when you can demonstrate that you can understand the regulators role and CP2/3
I do.
Benson, Southamton and Biggin seem perfect
Southampton does not have a northly ILS, you obviously have never used Benson, Biggin is also not northly.
NATS have nothing to do with the landing fees at any of the UK airports.......
I never said they did.
Oh dear, if only the rest of your waffle wasn't so incorect people would listen to your rant!
Your claim as to my factual incorrectness seems to have gone disastrously wrong.
You may well disagree with regulating access to airports so that GA is not effectively excluded, but you should avoid debating the facts, unless you can do a better job.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 9th Nov 2008 at 21:03.
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OK, so Pace was expecting to fly into Farnborough. Not a problem, assuming he had a second alternate (or in fact a third, since it seems Farnborough was not forecast good enough for a non-precision approach so not a suitable alternate. Since Pace says he was not paying, it seems likely he was working under EU-OPS. If not, the rules are sensible for flight safety). We've all hoped for the best, but we also planned for the worst. He appears not to have checked with their handling agents that he would be welcome.
Farnborough did ban all pistons. It might be that they now allow piston twins, but it appears Pace didn't check. £360 for an unscheduled arrival when the crew knew they were likely to be flying in does not sound unreasonable, especially in an airport trying to discourage that class.
Farnborough did ban all pistons. It might be that they now allow piston twins, but it appears Pace didn't check. £360 for an unscheduled arrival when the crew knew they were likely to be flying in does not sound unreasonable, especially in an airport trying to discourage that class.
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It is the local governments/councils that set ridiculously low movement caps that treat a jet the same as a light piston.
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Bloody hell.
All pace wanted to do is say how expensive Farnborough was.
BEagle, you wrote;
If you have been in aviation as long as 'you sound' you have, then you know that sometiems its as bad as the motor trade (the bad ones). You seem to judge quickly but I am sure you must have been in situations where you said to yourself, 'is it legal and safe'. If the answer was yes then maybe a rule/SOP must be bent a little.
P.S I had to edit this post because i spelt Farnborough wrong. That is because I don't go in there very often because its so f~cking expensive
BEagle, you wrote;
One without liars or cheats at the helm.
P.S I had to edit this post because i spelt Farnborough wrong. That is because I don't go in there very often because its so f~cking expensive
Ouch! Flying on the other side of the pond really is expensive isn't it!
Bit tricky maintaining a mandatory 90 kts to 300 ft. tho' as gear operating speed 80kts and flap limit speed 60 kts. but it worked OK ( yes, variable prop. and retractable gear and it IS a microlight under NZ regs.
)
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Lost man Standing
I am starting to wish I had never bothered to post this. I did not expect to get into Fairoaks or Farnborough but did want to get as close to where my passengers needed to be.
I had a number of other options icluding Southend Lydd, Southampton Bournemouth or turning back north where there were a host of pure VMC airports.
Having gone into Farnborough I posted this to warn PPLs of the cost and the need to prove your emergency diversion to avoid such a huge landing fee.
I did not arttempt to avoid it myself.
From the days (not that long ago) when I flew with friends in a PA28 for a cup of coffee into places like Manchester or Luton the changes now for light GA are massive and the options for using light GA as a serious means of transport are getting less and less.
That was my message.
The people at Farnborough are great and I have used Farnborough flying corporate jets a number of times.
BEagle
I bet you are active in the local residents association amd neighbourhood watch. I have flown with some great Pilots in my time so keep to your world because I wouldnt want to be in it.
Take care
Pace
I am starting to wish I had never bothered to post this. I did not expect to get into Fairoaks or Farnborough but did want to get as close to where my passengers needed to be.
I had a number of other options icluding Southend Lydd, Southampton Bournemouth or turning back north where there were a host of pure VMC airports.
Having gone into Farnborough I posted this to warn PPLs of the cost and the need to prove your emergency diversion to avoid such a huge landing fee.
I did not arttempt to avoid it myself.
From the days (not that long ago) when I flew with friends in a PA28 for a cup of coffee into places like Manchester or Luton the changes now for light GA are massive and the options for using light GA as a serious means of transport are getting less and less.
That was my message.
The people at Farnborough are great and I have used Farnborough flying corporate jets a number of times.
BEagle
I bet you are active in the local residents association amd neighbourhood watch. I have flown with some great Pilots in my time so keep to your world because I wouldnt want to be in it.
Take care
Pace