Extra 300 Groups
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Extra 300 Groups
Hi
I would be greatful if anyone with either current or former experience an Extra 300 group could give me a very brief breakdown of how the group was structured in terms of costs (monthly fees, p/h wet, etc.)
On a related note how many shares in an aerobatic aircraft such as the Extra are a reasonable number? Obviously, as compared to a touring aircraft the use tends to be for shorter periods (subject to competitions, etc. if applicable) but does this mean 4,6,8, etc? Obviously, the fewer members the greater the availability, but its a question of what people have found to be a reasonably compromise in this type of aircraft.
Thanks in advance.
I would be greatful if anyone with either current or former experience an Extra 300 group could give me a very brief breakdown of how the group was structured in terms of costs (monthly fees, p/h wet, etc.)
On a related note how many shares in an aerobatic aircraft such as the Extra are a reasonable number? Obviously, as compared to a touring aircraft the use tends to be for shorter periods (subject to competitions, etc. if applicable) but does this mean 4,6,8, etc? Obviously, the fewer members the greater the availability, but its a question of what people have found to be a reasonably compromise in this type of aircraft.
Thanks in advance.
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What a good question.
My experience is that the utilisation is focused around short hops (much as yours) with little, if any, touring. However, very often pilots will want to enter competitions. The "problem" with that is there is high demand for the aircraft over competition weekends (often the time everyone wants to fly anyway) and of couse competitions involve taking the aircraft away for the day / weekend. Some thought therefore needs to be given to the profile of the group and what each member expects. This can mean that whilst at first blush the group can be structured around a large number of members with everyone being satisfied with availability in reality it is not quite that simple. Even tow members going to the same competition causes more problems than you might imagine, but with organisation can work.
In so far as cost is concerned I have never operated an Extra, only enjoyed flying them (a bit). I would guess that as ever the hire rates are not a bad guide as to running costs but also, as ever, so much depends on how the capital cost is financed. However, putting together your own budget should be relatively straight forward. I would be amazed if the group would do more than 150 hours a year (very few do), so factor the costs around the required maintenace, hangarage, insurance, fuel and unexpecteds and you will not go too far wrong. Ultimately, unless you are very brave, the members are going to have to meet any shortfall anyway.
You probably are already aware this is a very specialist market. It is tuff both getting people to join groups of this type and even tougher to find a market for the aircraft should the group decide they want to sell.
My experience is that the utilisation is focused around short hops (much as yours) with little, if any, touring. However, very often pilots will want to enter competitions. The "problem" with that is there is high demand for the aircraft over competition weekends (often the time everyone wants to fly anyway) and of couse competitions involve taking the aircraft away for the day / weekend. Some thought therefore needs to be given to the profile of the group and what each member expects. This can mean that whilst at first blush the group can be structured around a large number of members with everyone being satisfied with availability in reality it is not quite that simple. Even tow members going to the same competition causes more problems than you might imagine, but with organisation can work.
In so far as cost is concerned I have never operated an Extra, only enjoyed flying them (a bit). I would guess that as ever the hire rates are not a bad guide as to running costs but also, as ever, so much depends on how the capital cost is financed. However, putting together your own budget should be relatively straight forward. I would be amazed if the group would do more than 150 hours a year (very few do), so factor the costs around the required maintenace, hangarage, insurance, fuel and unexpecteds and you will not go too far wrong. Ultimately, unless you are very brave, the members are going to have to meet any shortfall anyway.
You probably are already aware this is a very specialist market. It is tuff both getting people to join groups of this type and even tougher to find a market for the aircraft should the group decide they want to sell.
A little less conversation,
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I think this still covers the basics, although you'll have to factor in the increase in fuel price since last year...
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ml#post3652894
You might also be able to offset your group running costs if you make the aircraft available for hire and commercial training, but this can take a bit of management effort and obviously reduces the availability.
From a competiton perspective, trying to have more than two pilots share an aircraft at the same level in a competition becomes problematic - partly because as a competitor you don't want to be rushing to about to get the pilots swapped over in a timely manner, and also from the organisation point of view juggling the flying order can become difficult.
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ml#post3652894
You might also be able to offset your group running costs if you make the aircraft available for hire and commercial training, but this can take a bit of management effort and obviously reduces the availability.
From a competiton perspective, trying to have more than two pilots share an aircraft at the same level in a competition becomes problematic - partly because as a competitor you don't want to be rushing to about to get the pilots swapped over in a timely manner, and also from the organisation point of view juggling the flying order can become difficult.
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From a competiton perspective, trying to have more than two pilots share an aircraft at the same level in a competition becomes problematic...
There basically was no randomness to the flying order as far as the airplanes were concerned. We were able to mix the flying order of the lower two classes with the upper two classes to speed things along every now and then.
Everybody took things in stride though. The competitors, the jury and the organizers. Of course it helped that the whole organizing committee flew in the same single aircraft. And the weather was exceptionally good so we were not short of time.
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Suspect the sortie rate might be a bit higher at UK competitions...I know we flew 142 sequences at the 2007 Standard and Intermediate Nationals over 2.5 days, and the weather wasn't particularly kind (not helped by my co-owner in MAXG performing a non-stop rain-dance and Windy Miller wind-whistle on the Friday night and Saturday morning as he was the overnight leader, but the cloud and wind abated just enough for him to be pipped to the post)...
The Standard and Intermediate Nationals - 2007
The Standard and Intermediate Nationals - 2007
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I am green with envy about the BAeA calender and the participation numbers on the individual events. One day I will pop over and try to compete with you guys as well.
Although it will be challenging competing against Pitts', Extra 300s and similar planes in my clubs R2160 in the Standard class.
Although it will be challenging competing against Pitts', Extra 300s and similar planes in my clubs R2160 in the Standard class.
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Originally Posted by Arrestahook
How is MAXG coming along Ed will you boys be back on next season? Or are you going to continue to avalanche the Yak
The Yak continues to provide a source of amusement and a means to discover entirely new figures by the simple expedient of making a horlicks of existing ones - I was going to going to christen the Duxford effort the Lunchevac, although Genna E suggested the Edracadabra.
FCA's splendid video from Duxford bears a repost - vintage stuff.
YouTube - Duxford Masters 2008
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To answer the original Q
Purchase price ???????
Hangarage £3000 pa
Insurance £2500 pa
Maintenance £6000 pa
Fuel £large
Cost of repairing bottom longerons near tailwheel mount when they break
£Annoying
I think a group of 5 would work well (G-SIII for example) £200 p/m £100 P/h wet plus £12 p/h engine fund gives a basic running cost. Would estimate buy in at £25,000 for a 300L
Well worth it though....
FCA
Purchase price ???????
Hangarage £3000 pa
Insurance £2500 pa
Maintenance £6000 pa
Fuel £large
Cost of repairing bottom longerons near tailwheel mount when they break
£Annoying
I think a group of 5 would work well (G-SIII for example) £200 p/m £100 P/h wet plus £12 p/h engine fund gives a basic running cost. Would estimate buy in at £25,000 for a 300L
Well worth it though....
FCA
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Ha ha ha, I like the way that film was edited with lots of other gyroscopic tumbling, almost made yours look intentional Ed! Be good to see you boys back next season anyway, the monoplane dullards are dominating intermediate at the mo its all very clinical. More pitts required.
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I like this video better
YouTube - Ed. Yak 52 Aerobatic Hero
Nothing to do with Extra 300 costs, sorry!!
ZA
YouTube - Ed. Yak 52 Aerobatic Hero
Nothing to do with Extra 300 costs, sorry!!
ZA
A little less conversation,
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Originally Posted by Zulu Alpha
I like this video better...
Returning the the OPs question - where are you considering operating this group from? If it is anywhere remotely noise-sensitive, then consider the four-blade prop and/or quiet(er) exhaust option - amazing the amount of difference this can make.
