Advice when buying an aeroplane

[rauxaman]

I am getting very close to identifying and buying my first wholly owned aeroplane, I have previously had shares in CofA types.

I once closely observed the process of buying a flying club aircraft and realised the importance of the various log-books and having an engineer inspect the aeroplane.

I am going down the route of buying an aeroplane with a Permit to Fly... my question is what log books do these aircraft have to legally carry, how accurate will these be bearing in mind the self-maintenance aspect of these machines and how familiar are engineers with the types.

Basically I don't want to buy a pig in a poke!
All observations and advice gratefully received.

Thanks R

[Pilot DAR]

Though not really an answer to you question, I (coming from the faction of aviation who tend toward type certified aircraft) would caution you that a quality amature built aircraft will probably cost more than the nearest equivilent type cerified aircraft. If you're buying amature built to save money, you probably won't in the long run. And, always ask, why is the seller selling? If it's such a good plane, why do they want rid of it? Sadly, some pilots must give up flying for various reasons, and they sell. Other than that, be cautious of someone perhaps dumping out a troublesome or hard to fly aircraft. At least with a type certified aircraft, there are manuals and standards of maintenance, which can be checked by inspection. If it's amature built, you better aquaint yourself with someone who knows that particular type well, who can advise you away, if that were to be appropriate.

If it's your first ownership venture, buy an aircraft which is well known. It'll be easier to maintain, and insure, and getting to feel comfortable flying it will be easier. Once you're an ownership pro, go shopping for the exotic types.

My two cents worth after owning Cessna for 21 years. Amature built owners slag on if you must!

Pilot DAR

[ChampChump]

Your Permit aeroplane will have an Engine Log Book and an Aircraft Log Book.
All work done should be cross-referenced to the Worksheets. A new Permit is good, of course. Check the radio, if installed, is legal (although this is not insurmountable - just more paperwork).

Bear in mind that a good inspector will be able to look at things and state his/her opinion, but there will always be things that cannot be known. An inspector's signature on the application for the Annual is merely verfication that on that day, things were as decribed and in order.

If your inspector can't find anything drastically wrong, or you agree that any work that needs doing is worth doing, buy the teas and start negotiating.

Having bought three aircraft, I've only done it 'right' once. First time there were no surprises, second time was a learning experience but still allowed me several hundred hours of pleasure as well and the third time the 'unknown' element couldn't have been discovered anyway.

There are no guarantees, just lots of faith, a generally good community of people and always lots of advice, which you don't have to take.

Does that help at all? If not, please see previous paragraph.

Edited to add that you will, of course, be taking someone familiar with the type of aeroplane you are viewing: at very least a wood and fabric man for a wood and fabric aeroplane, for example.

[Jodelman]

my question is what log books do these aircraft have to legally carry, how accurate will these be bearing in mind the self-maintenance aspect of these machines and how familiar are engineers with the types.

If we are talking about an LAA permit aircraft then they have to have log books which are very similar to certified aircraft. The range of pilot maintenance allowed is also very similar but in the case of the permit aircraft any other work has to be signed off by an LAA inspector.

You would be advised to take along an LAA inspector, familiar with the type, for a pre purchase inspection in the same way you would take a licensed engineer if you were buying a C of A aircraft. Indeed many LAA inspectors are also licensed engineers.

I notice the PilotDar is from Canada and it is worth remembering that the experimental category there is very different from the system we have to operate under in the UK.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by Jodelman

I notice the PilotDar is from Canada and it is worth remembering that the experimental category there is very different from the system we have to operate under in the UK.

Yes. In North America or much of Europe I'd agree with PilotDAR, but for a private use aeroplane in the UK, I'd not - the LAA and BMAA permit systems are safe, robust, and offer much cheaper hassle-free flying for many people than the CofA over here.

G

[A and C]

Having been a PFA/LAA inspector for a number of years I have found a very variable standard of permit aircraft, a lot of them are very well looked after putting the C of A types to shame.

However you will find a small number of old dogs that are an accident waiting to happen, the LAA is doing it,s best to improve the standard of permit aircraft but I fear that it is very hard to do any thing with the recalcitrant string and sealing wax brigade.

As said above take an inspector with you when you look as an aircraft,he will save you £££££££££££££ in the long run.

[vintagewizard]

Champchump, don't forget that if the plane has a constant speed prop, it should have a log book for that as well!!

[ChampChump]

I rather naively assumed that the poster was referring to the simpler LAA machines.

Anyone off to buy an aeroplane with a wobbly prop would presumably know that deducting lightness and simplicity equals additional paperwork.

And, of course, the knowledgeable person accompanying the would-be purchaser would be the first to notice any such absence....

Too many assumptions for one post on here. I should know better.

[steveking]

Not trying to sway people either way C of A or LAA you like what you like.

I have an absolute beut of an RV6 with a IO360 superior engine with 1 mag and 1 electronic ignition runs sweet. It also has an MT 3 blade wobbly on it so quite a complex aircraft for a LAA type but there's plenty of them. I bought off the previous owner 1 year old and 40 hours on it. He was just a compulsive builder, already building his next project.

For my aircraft you have the 3 logbooks, engine,prop, and airframe. If work is done outside of pilot maintenance then my inspector checks and signs it off via worksheets these are referenced in the logbook. Sounds a lot but a doddle really.

A friend of mine has a mooney and just installed a new Garmin mode S and cost him over 3G. I have just had my AT 150 replaced with the same mode S and had it installed by a certified avionics guy and cost me £1600. The LAA didn't charge anything for the updated paperwork. My avionics guy also has different rates for LAA and C of A.

I done my permit renewal with my inspector at the same time giving the aircraft a service, total cost was about £300.00

Do remember though LAA are limited to day VFR only. I'm not trying to say one type is better than another it's all about what you fancy flying.

[CMDR114]

It's all been said above. Check the log books, ask for the build work sheets, and also ask to see the test flight report (they should have a copy from the test pilot).

I kept copies of the PFA (LAA) blue work book when I built my aircraft. Take your inspector with you on the inspection and listen to what he says and don't be ruled by your heart.

My current plane is on a C of A (ARC) and I miss being able to do the work myself. I have spent a lot of money getting it to how I want it but I knew that when I started. It's more important to ensure you don't get bitten when its on a C of A as you have to pay someone else to sort it out IMO.

[411A]

If you're buying amature built to save money, you probably won't in the long run.

Very wise words.

Can't say about these airplanes in the UK but in FAA-land, I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot barge pole, even if I had one.

Duff quality, from what I've seen, with a very few exceptions, as always.

[Cusco]

The Europa which shook itself to bits and lost a wing fatally injuring the new owner not so long ago had a severe construction error in which the wing fixings had shifted during fibreglassing and subsequent drilling was not central: the intended 'O' shaped hole in a structural metal part became a 'C' shaped hole with fatal results some years later.

I can't find the AAIB report but the error was totally un detectable as it had been layered over.

This sort of mishap would put me off a permit aircraft.......

Cusco

[john ball]

when buying an aeroplane

Over the last 30 years I have owned several aircraft and can assure you that going the PFA/LAA route is far cheaper and more rewarding. You get to know your aircraft intimately and have a real pride of ownership when you meet others to talk about the aircraft. Also there is so much you can do yourself without having to beg that engineer to rectify a problem on a saturday morning when you are about to go for the £100 bacon sandwich.

But the real key to cheaper flying is where you are based IRO of landing fees and hangar fees. Unfortunately, I am based in the SE at a large GA airport with the usual 20 min queues to take off !!!

The choice of plane comes down to whether you want bimble around or
go places fast. Both have their atractions. I have owned both Taylor mono - great fun and vvv cheap 2 gph, now have RV6, 150kts and south France capable.

Decide what type of flying you want --- Jodel's are good, but must be hangared.

Ask me about specific types and I can probably give you an opinion.
RV

[Choxolate]

I have just bought a Permit to Fly Aircraft (my first purchase) - still not delivered yet.

The log books etc are more less the same as for a full CofA aircraft. Airframe, engineand (in my case) prop (variable pitch).

I checked all log book entries against work records and that all hours totalled correctly (there was a discrepancy of 20 hours on the engine log book but that was discussed, corrected and counter signed by both the current owner and the LAA inspector).

I did not take the LAA inspector with me but he visited after I had made an offer (subject to his inspection) and got a report from him. I also required that a new permit to Fly was issued prior to purchase (only 2 months left on the old one).

I checked all mandatory modfications had been carried out - both physically checked (where possible) and signed off in Log book by LAA inspector.

Had a trial flight - about an hour and checked general handling, power-off and power-on stall behaviour as well as climb rate, ASI calibration with GPS etc.

Gave the engine a good once over with covers removed and checked all cables, pipes etc. for chafing, wear etc. Give the tyres and brakes a good looking at. A good guide is the general state of the aircraft - does it look like it has been well cared for (scuff marks, dints and dings, cleanliness, prop chips etc. etc)

I made sure any specialist tools were included in price as well as covers, any spares etc.

Had a long chat with current owner about his time with aircraft and why he was selling - made sure it all "stacked up" with log book entries etc.

Hope this helps

[steveking]

Cusco i'm sure we could all single out individual aircraft faults but as a statistic overflight was recently lifted from Permit aircraft in the UK as a detailed study of accidents over the last 30 years was carried out. It was found that crashes were about the same for permit and C of A and that included micros on a permit.

Overflight now lifted by the CAA. There now working on the IFR restriction. Mind you don't buy an aircraft waiting for this to happen.You'll probally go old and grey by then:-)

If you want cheap to run then a rotax powered machine is hard to beat, if you want out and out performance then an RV. I have cruised along side my brothers C42 at 85 Kts and I can also sail past my friends Mooney at 170Kts

The advice given about taking someone along with you who knows the type is spot on for any aircraft.

[Zulu Alpha]

Having operated both LAA permit and C of A aircraft I would say that the LAA permit is much cheaper. Mainly because of the reduced cost of paperwork and the ability to do work yourself signed off by an inspector when needed. The LAA does require detailed records of maintenance, with worksheets for all work done so ask to look at these and see if work done is thoroughly recorded. C of A will have the same.

The accident rate between both types is similar, there are scare stories with both.

With both types there is nothing to stop the unscrupulous owner doing some hidden bodge and not recording it. The only way to pick this up is a thorough inspection.

The most important thing is to decide what aircraft you want. In almost all cases this will determine whether its a LAA or CAA aircraft. ie there are hardly any types where the same type of aircraft can be LAA or CAA.
Then ask around, most of the types have extensive information available on the web. Then make sure you get advice from someone who knows the type.

[IO540]

There now working on the IFR restriction

That one is going to be tough. Even the DA40, supposedly IFR certified, has big static problems in IMC, according to someone I know who flies them.

[steveking]

So I've read they are going to work on the orphaned C of A aircraft first that have moved over to permit to fly but I wouldn't hold by breath.