Aircraft ditched off Whitby, Teeside UK
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very true indeed . . . . . . . . .
The trouble with PPRuNe is that, if you're not careful, you tend to get drawn into 'clubhouse gossip'
Better to await the outcome of AAIB investigations.
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Having been touched by the initial gestures of well wishing, I have been quite disturbed by how quickly the tone of the thread has descended into ignorant,distasteful and ill informed speculation that this may have been a suicide. I can categorically say that this was not the case. Creep Feed grinder is correct when he says the said pilot's family might read this.
The pilot was my uncle. On behalf of the family, I would like to thanks those who found positive things to say. Hoping the rest of the family do not read the pearls of hurtful b*ll*cks flying officer kite has to offer, I would kindly request that we let the AAIB do their job and then by all means debate their findings as and when they are published.
The pilot was my uncle. On behalf of the family, I would like to thanks those who found positive things to say. Hoping the rest of the family do not read the pearls of hurtful b*ll*cks flying officer kite has to offer, I would kindly request that we let the AAIB do their job and then by all means debate their findings as and when they are published.
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no offence meant . . . . . . . . .
I really mean that - - no offence meant at all. Total sympathies and condolences to any families of those who are lost in this way. In my career I've known lots of deaths, including accidental ones, but I must admit to never having been personally involved in any such matters that made national headlines.
But it must also be said that debate (maybe even a bit of speculation) is now considered quite normal, maybe even healthy, when news of ALL events (good and bad) reach our newspapers and TV screen so quickly after they happen. Is the Internet, with forums such as this one, to be treated any differently to press or TV ? Hands up the person who has NEVER, EVER, made speculative (maybe totally unfounded) remarks about other folks' driving skills when yet another example of motorway carnage finds its way onto our screens ?
There, but for the grace of God, go . . . . . . . probably most of the people who will eventually read this posting. Once again, my very sincerest sympathies to anyone who has any direct association with this tragedy.
The AAIB will do their job well, as they always do; and we will all read the report in due course.
But it must also be said that debate (maybe even a bit of speculation) is now considered quite normal, maybe even healthy, when news of ALL events (good and bad) reach our newspapers and TV screen so quickly after they happen. Is the Internet, with forums such as this one, to be treated any differently to press or TV ? Hands up the person who has NEVER, EVER, made speculative (maybe totally unfounded) remarks about other folks' driving skills when yet another example of motorway carnage finds its way onto our screens ?
There, but for the grace of God, go . . . . . . . probably most of the people who will eventually read this posting. Once again, my very sincerest sympathies to anyone who has any direct association with this tragedy.
The AAIB will do their job well, as they always do; and we will all read the report in due course.
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It's unlikely to be a suicide because
has a 3rd option which is to remain silent, and your estate gets any insurance payout then too.
Suicide = no pay out
'Mayday' = accidental death.
'Mayday' = accidental death.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed by AMEandPPL.
Whilst I sympathize entirely with the family and friends of anyone involved in a fatal accident of this nature, if it cannot be discussed and debated on PPruNe then we might as well close the website down.
My comments were not without precedent* and if you can offer an alternative explanation to those proposed, then I would be interested to learn what that might be?
Kind regards
FOK
* PA-38 in the sea off Bournemouth, PA-28 in the sea off Liverpool
Whilst I sympathize entirely with the family and friends of anyone involved in a fatal accident of this nature, if it cannot be discussed and debated on PPruNe then we might as well close the website down.
My comments were not without precedent* and if you can offer an alternative explanation to those proposed, then I would be interested to learn what that might be?
Kind regards
FOK
* PA-38 in the sea off Bournemouth, PA-28 in the sea off Liverpool
Last edited by FlyingOfficerKite; 19th Oct 2008 at 11:46.
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if it cannot be discussed and debated on PPruNe then we might as well close the website down
Perhaps the less controversial posts could be split off to a different thread and the present thread locked? If a need is felt to discuss pilot suicides, don't do that in a thread that was originally about an accident for which there is no reason whatsoever to imagine that suicide had anything to do with it.
This whole conversation is extremely tasteless.
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We are all aware non-pilots read this forum.
At the same time, this forum is intended for pilots and in my view especially to learn from what happens.
I am sure we all feel for the family, and what ele can we say in comfort other than that he died doing something he must have loved a lot...
but at the same time I think it was quite ok for a poster to mention the possibility it was a suicide. Especially the ensuing discussions on the pay out side is information.
Perhaps we should all impres on our families we WANT such an open discussion on this forum, even if we die in the course of our love, just as we should impres on our families it is NOT our wish, in case we die, that litigation ensues which damages our industry and penalises it on technicalities.
There, I've said it. It s been on my mind for a long time, having seen from a distance how bad preflight check led to a death, and subsequently a company was sued for an omission which had no relevance to the accident in the opinion of those technically involved.
For the record: If i die, flying my own plane asP1 or P2 or PUS, i do not want anyone to be sued over it, I only want the truth out so others can learn from it
At the same time, this forum is intended for pilots and in my view especially to learn from what happens.
I am sure we all feel for the family, and what ele can we say in comfort other than that he died doing something he must have loved a lot...
but at the same time I think it was quite ok for a poster to mention the possibility it was a suicide. Especially the ensuing discussions on the pay out side is information.
Perhaps we should all impres on our families we WANT such an open discussion on this forum, even if we die in the course of our love, just as we should impres on our families it is NOT our wish, in case we die, that litigation ensues which damages our industry and penalises it on technicalities.
There, I've said it. It s been on my mind for a long time, having seen from a distance how bad preflight check led to a death, and subsequently a company was sued for an omission which had no relevance to the accident in the opinion of those technically involved.
For the record: If i die, flying my own plane asP1 or P2 or PUS, i do not want anyone to be sued over it, I only want the truth out so others can learn from it
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Flying officer kite, I appreciate the right of everyone to voice their opinions and maybe my language was somewhat strong, for which I apologise and can only put his down to the very raw emotion that I and my family are feeling at the moment.
However, what I found distasteful and ill-judged, as feed creeper put it, you quoted a long list of possible causes for this accident, but still seemed intent on exploring the more sinister possibilities. I have no doubt that the AAIB will explore the possibility of suicide. I also have no doubt that this will be dismissed out of hand. As I said previously, let's allow the AAIB to establish the facts regarding what has happened, because until then, any "debate" is based on supposition which can lead us down a very different path to that which actually occured.
And for the record, as a FATPL holder I also have a professional interest in what happened, if only it wasn't so close to home.
brgds
However, what I found distasteful and ill-judged, as feed creeper put it, you quoted a long list of possible causes for this accident, but still seemed intent on exploring the more sinister possibilities. I have no doubt that the AAIB will explore the possibility of suicide. I also have no doubt that this will be dismissed out of hand. As I said previously, let's allow the AAIB to establish the facts regarding what has happened, because until then, any "debate" is based on supposition which can lead us down a very different path to that which actually occured.
And for the record, as a FATPL holder I also have a professional interest in what happened, if only it wasn't so close to home.
brgds
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m3oml
I sympathize with you and your family entirely and I'm sorry that your uncle has died in such a tragic manner.
The problem with a forum such as this is that it is impersonal.
This is good in so far as it enables heated debate and the expression of ones opinions about matters concerning aviation.
On the other hand it can be very insensitive to the feelings of those involved.
But, in common with other situations in life, a lot is often said behind closed doors which would not be said in front of those involved out of respect for their sensitivities. It happens in all aspects of life. I suppose the trouble with PPruNe is there are no 'closed doors'.
The problem is with any 'public forum' whether it is the media or ones such as this is that the feelings of relatives and friends are never taken into account. If they were, very little would be published in the press and very few comments would be posted on websites like PPruNe out of sensitivity for those involved.
I don't know what the answer is, but who is going to publish an opinion on PPruNe knowing that a close relative may be reading every word?
We might as well all come clean and sign on in our real names and treat this website as though it were 'real life'. Maybe then more thought would go into the comments made and more respect afforded to those involved.
My comments were not designed to offend, just to offer speculation in common with any other similar Thread that has ever been published on this site.
FOK
I sympathize with you and your family entirely and I'm sorry that your uncle has died in such a tragic manner.
The problem with a forum such as this is that it is impersonal.
This is good in so far as it enables heated debate and the expression of ones opinions about matters concerning aviation.
On the other hand it can be very insensitive to the feelings of those involved.
But, in common with other situations in life, a lot is often said behind closed doors which would not be said in front of those involved out of respect for their sensitivities. It happens in all aspects of life. I suppose the trouble with PPruNe is there are no 'closed doors'.
The problem is with any 'public forum' whether it is the media or ones such as this is that the feelings of relatives and friends are never taken into account. If they were, very little would be published in the press and very few comments would be posted on websites like PPruNe out of sensitivity for those involved.
I don't know what the answer is, but who is going to publish an opinion on PPruNe knowing that a close relative may be reading every word?
We might as well all come clean and sign on in our real names and treat this website as though it were 'real life'. Maybe then more thought would go into the comments made and more respect afforded to those involved.
My comments were not designed to offend, just to offer speculation in common with any other similar Thread that has ever been published on this site.
FOK
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I belong to another Forum ,The Vintage Sports Car Club where the forumistes are only allowed to enter if they are members of the club.
The club has around 7500 members world wide although not that many post,but most of the posters are known to each other even if they use a pseudonym, although as on here I use my real name.
The forum is very polite although a great deal of p*ss taking goes on and it also has an excellent technical section for serious enquiries.
Pprune is open to all the world,pilots or not and no personal membership details required.
There are all types posting here and it takes a while to recognise those with something worthwhile to add,without self interest and banging their own drum.
The real problem with electronic messaging is that there is no body language,so that things you may say face to face in the pub with a big grin and shrug of the shoulders comes over as cold and clinical on here.
Sorry if this is a bit rambling,especially as I have not had my evening G&T yet ,but often what comes out on here is probably not as originally intended by the poster.
Rambling over.
Lister
The club has around 7500 members world wide although not that many post,but most of the posters are known to each other even if they use a pseudonym, although as on here I use my real name.
The forum is very polite although a great deal of p*ss taking goes on and it also has an excellent technical section for serious enquiries.
Pprune is open to all the world,pilots or not and no personal membership details required.
There are all types posting here and it takes a while to recognise those with something worthwhile to add,without self interest and banging their own drum.
The real problem with electronic messaging is that there is no body language,so that things you may say face to face in the pub with a big grin and shrug of the shoulders comes over as cold and clinical on here.
Sorry if this is a bit rambling,especially as I have not had my evening G&T yet ,but often what comes out on here is probably not as originally intended by the poster.
Rambling over.
Lister
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Condolences are quite often pointless on anonymous websites such as this, and in any event I suspect that the poster whose uncle has been involved in this tragedy is no longer reading these posts. I knew this aircraft previously (its in my log book) but I don't know who was flying her on Friday. The posts speculating suicides are tasteless and puerile. Has anyone thought about a low pass over the sea (yes I know foolish but it happens) with engine failure and not enough height to clear the cliffs, or maybe serious structural failure , or control surface failures...I could go on but I unlike the ghouls on here will await the AAIB
R.I.P to the fellow aviator and sincere sympathy to the family who are left without their loved one
R.I.P to the fellow aviator and sincere sympathy to the family who are left without their loved one
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I suspect that the poster whose uncle has been involved in this tragedy is no longer reading these posts
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The posts speculating suicides are tasteless and puerile
I flew the aircraft only a couple of days before and there were no technical problems.
So what did we think?
We'll one instructor who saw the aircraft hit the sea said there was no sign of a forced landing.
Indeed there wasn't - two suicides! The rest is well known.
So don't criticize my comments on this Thread. It was quite reasonable to speculate that possibility. If that offends your sensibilities then maybe you should confine your time to viewing other less contentious websites.
Life is hard at times.
It's the way it goes.
FOK
PS: As AMEandPPL states, relatives are still reading these Posts knowing the pain and anguish it causes then one has to question their motives. I certainly would not if all it served to do was inflict even more distress! It would be the LAST place I would be accessing.
Last edited by FlyingOfficerKite; 19th Oct 2008 at 19:00.
Avoid imitations
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[Speaking as someone who has lost 18 good friends to flying accidents since my professional career began over thirty one years ago and know first hand the distress caused to their relatives].
It's not often I have clicked on the exclamation mark sign at bottom left of a post, but tonight I have done so.
It's not often I have clicked on the exclamation mark sign at bottom left of a post, but tonight I have done so.
Hovering AND talking
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FOK, you've never lost anyone close to you in trgaic circumstances have you? If you had, you would realise the crass stupidity of many of your remarks.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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well done BRL, I just could'nt believe some of the posts contents.
On another note those tomahawks are demons in a spin and can snap into one very quickly irrespective of the stall strips on the leading edges.
On another note those tomahawks are demons in a spin and can snap into one very quickly irrespective of the stall strips on the leading edges.
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firstly, once again i would like to thank those who have passed their condolences which are never pointless, anonymous or not.
it was not my intention that FOK be banned from the thread.I don't believe in censorship, just that when people do make comments that might hurt one's sensibilites, they arm themselves with the facts first.
The fact that suicide was "mentioned" as a "possible" cause was not what offended me, just as when the AAIB speak to my auntie tomorrow I am sure she will not be offended that they have to ask her difficult questions to rule out the possibility of any sort of foul play. where I think FOK (and maybe one or two others) overstepped the mark is that he didn't seem interested in discussing one of the several other possibilites, instead almost assuming that suicide was the cause, merely because there have been "precedents". It was at this point that the discussion started to veer off in the wrong direction and where i felt i had to make a rare interjection.
my objection was less to do with my hurt feelings and more to do with how such a possiblity was discussed in such depth, including how it might be covered up with as yet absolutely no reference to established facts. I would have felt strongly about this (as have many posters) even if this was not relating to a family member.
If I could make one last point in response to FOK questioning my motives for continuing to read this site - initially it was to gather information and opinion to help me get my head round what has happened, secondly it was to take comfort from the good wishes of fellow aviators and lastly it was to try to counteract the more tactless comments on this site, not neccessarily for my sake, but just in case my cousin happens to stumble upon pprune when he's trying to find out more about what happened to his dad.
it was not my intention that FOK be banned from the thread.I don't believe in censorship, just that when people do make comments that might hurt one's sensibilites, they arm themselves with the facts first.
The fact that suicide was "mentioned" as a "possible" cause was not what offended me, just as when the AAIB speak to my auntie tomorrow I am sure she will not be offended that they have to ask her difficult questions to rule out the possibility of any sort of foul play. where I think FOK (and maybe one or two others) overstepped the mark is that he didn't seem interested in discussing one of the several other possibilites, instead almost assuming that suicide was the cause, merely because there have been "precedents". It was at this point that the discussion started to veer off in the wrong direction and where i felt i had to make a rare interjection.
my objection was less to do with my hurt feelings and more to do with how such a possiblity was discussed in such depth, including how it might be covered up with as yet absolutely no reference to established facts. I would have felt strongly about this (as have many posters) even if this was not relating to a family member.
If I could make one last point in response to FOK questioning my motives for continuing to read this site - initially it was to gather information and opinion to help me get my head round what has happened, secondly it was to take comfort from the good wishes of fellow aviators and lastly it was to try to counteract the more tactless comments on this site, not neccessarily for my sake, but just in case my cousin happens to stumble upon pprune when he's trying to find out more about what happened to his dad.
Last edited by m3oml; 19th Oct 2008 at 23:33.
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I heard the tragic news this morning. I worked closely with the pilot concerned, and he was very much part of our industry. I am totally gutted by this news, and disgusted with the pathetic slant of "possible suicide". My god, of course his family and friends will read this. FOK - try and engage your brain before typing things you insensitive buffoon.
To the family - I will not be the 1st to mention names, but save to say that I worked a lot with him and he was an absolute pleasure to deal with. A massive loss to our industry, and an even bigger loss to his family, who I know he absolutely cherished.
RIP.
To the family - I will not be the 1st to mention names, but save to say that I worked a lot with him and he was an absolute pleasure to deal with. A massive loss to our industry, and an even bigger loss to his family, who I know he absolutely cherished.
RIP.