From the pilot perspective
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From the pilot perspective
From ATC's point of view
What irritates you the most when dealing with PPL holders?
What of CPL holders?
What of FI holders?
What of Examiners?
Students?
This is over in the ATC forum and I read it as well intentioned question to get honest views so that we may all improve our relative interaction. May i pose the same question the opposite way so that ATC may get a view of the difficulties sometimes faced by the pilot?
What irritates you the most when dealing with PPL holders?
What of CPL holders?
What of FI holders?
What of Examiners?
Students?
This is over in the ATC forum and I read it as well intentioned question to get honest views so that we may all improve our relative interaction. May i pose the same question the opposite way so that ATC may get a view of the difficulties sometimes faced by the pilot?
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UK ATC is normally very professional. I think many units could do with some new microphones though!! Often I am flying with 2 other pilots and none of us can make out what the ATCO said. Loud enough but totally garbled.
Abroad, many ATCOs should learn some English. Their standard practice is to ignore a request if they cannot understand it, which happens quite often in some countries because many ATCOs have no grasp of conversational English - only the few standard phrases.
Abroad, many ATCOs should learn some English. Their standard practice is to ignore a request if they cannot understand it, which happens quite often in some countries because many ATCOs have no grasp of conversational English - only the few standard phrases.
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ATC frustration
sitting at a holding point watching someone join wide on left base on a windy day and having to wait until he has landed when if ATC understood effects of wind on small aeroplanes in circuit other aircraft could easily be despatched but of course they often subscrine to the "all pilots are XXXXXX and it is best to treat them as such even when you may be being a little unfair to the odd one.
or
trying to stay in glide range of the strip behind a baby airline pilot on a cross country circuit outside the ATZ and he being given priority and me having to orbit as spacing compromised as a result - costs me money too
or
pilots report as over VRP when obviously not and not being challenged
PS I am grumpy today!
or
trying to stay in glide range of the strip behind a baby airline pilot on a cross country circuit outside the ATZ and he being given priority and me having to orbit as spacing compromised as a result - costs me money too
or
pilots report as over VRP when obviously not and not being challenged
PS I am grumpy today!
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Can't say I have ever been irritated or frustrated about ATC. Some things could be improved, for sure; things always can. But those things are on the "mildly inconvenient" level, not on the "frustrating" level...
One such thing is when being told to extend the downwind prior to landing "until adviced", when doing so takes you over terrain with zero chance of a successful forced landing in case of engine trouble. Sure, the engine rarely fails, so it is tremendously unlikely to do so at that precise moment... But given the terrain I'd rather do 360's abeam the runway if required to delay on downwind.
It would be far easier to fill up a thread on what is good about ATC!
One such thing is when being told to extend the downwind prior to landing "until adviced", when doing so takes you over terrain with zero chance of a successful forced landing in case of engine trouble. Sure, the engine rarely fails, so it is tremendously unlikely to do so at that precise moment... But given the terrain I'd rather do 360's abeam the runway if required to delay on downwind.
It would be far easier to fill up a thread on what is good about ATC!
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To be fair SkyCam, the baby airline pilot ahead is quite probably a student - by definition of the global circuit. They are a pain, yus, but they are probably trying to do their best at the time.
When said student gets the same experience and confidence that you have - they'll complain when they're grumpy too.
We all started with zero.
Bjorn - you could SAY "request 360 rather than overfly terrain, built up area..whatever" if radio traffic permits.
It's so much clearer to pilots when ATC can say "extend downwind due XXX" and gives us the fuller picture. They may understand better too if opportunity allows us to point it out.
I have the same going to a common airfield of mine - unwritten procedure says outbound traffic at 1500', inbound at 1,000. But that's just inside a zone of 4 miles radius with a top at 1,600 feet. I stay at 3 or 4(ish) thousand (normally gently descending) on my way back in, for exactly the same reasons. I don't want to start engine failure drills from only 900 feet agl. Unlikely - but certainly possible.
When said student gets the same experience and confidence that you have - they'll complain when they're grumpy too.
We all started with zero.
Bjorn - you could SAY "request 360 rather than overfly terrain, built up area..whatever" if radio traffic permits.
It's so much clearer to pilots when ATC can say "extend downwind due XXX" and gives us the fuller picture. They may understand better too if opportunity allows us to point it out.
I have the same going to a common airfield of mine - unwritten procedure says outbound traffic at 1500', inbound at 1,000. But that's just inside a zone of 4 miles radius with a top at 1,600 feet. I stay at 3 or 4(ish) thousand (normally gently descending) on my way back in, for exactly the same reasons. I don't want to start engine failure drills from only 900 feet agl. Unlikely - but certainly possible.
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ATC
I can excuse solo students taught poorly about airmanship but not their FI's no need to fly 737 circuits in a light a/c they are the ones most likely no need to be in glide range - but point taken!
Generally I get great service and outside my local area I have great regard for Gloucester and Leeds Bradford and have no compalints re ATC anywhere that I consider worth formalising if that helps...
Generally I get great service and outside my local area I have great regard for Gloucester and Leeds Bradford and have no compalints re ATC anywhere that I consider worth formalising if that helps...
Last edited by SkyCamMK; 4th Oct 2008 at 18:59. Reason: Fairness
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I suppose it would also be valid to mention if you didn't actually have a problem with the ATC services in the UK?
As yet I have not experienced any regular 'failings' which would cause me to complain, after all we all know why commercial traffic take
priority, that's not the fault of ATCO's and people are human, get grumpy and make the occasional error.
As yet I have not experienced any regular 'failings' which would cause me to complain, after all we all know why commercial traffic take
priority, that's not the fault of ATCO's and people are human, get grumpy and make the occasional error.
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trying to stay in glide range of the strip behind a baby airline pilot on a cross country circuit outside the ATZ and he being given priority and me having to orbit as spacing compromised as a result - costs me money too
Ah, nothing's wrong with it, what you're complaining about is controllers who don't say it.
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Quote:
Abroad, many ATCOs should learn some English.
Abroad, many ATCOs should learn some English.
Er, one might wish the same of some American military controllers in the UK ...
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Well, you will need good luck at one airfield in SE England where ATC managed to "control" two light aircraft transiting their zone such that they were on reciprocal courses and only seperated by 50 feet vertically !
The same Controller also has a perchant for telling you the type of aircraft you may be in conflict with plus where it is coming from/ going to (Airfield names). I would prefer to to have its likely course described by clock face relevent to me (ATC have radar at this field) or if thats not possible due to workload descibe by the cardinal points East - West, NE - SW etc. plus last reported altitude or transponder mode C info. The type of Aircraft is only relevent if its something fast eg. F16) or bloody big eg. 747. Apart from that, ATC generally do a very good job.
The same Controller also has a perchant for telling you the type of aircraft you may be in conflict with plus where it is coming from/ going to (Airfield names). I would prefer to to have its likely course described by clock face relevent to me (ATC have radar at this field) or if thats not possible due to workload descibe by the cardinal points East - West, NE - SW etc. plus last reported altitude or transponder mode C info. The type of Aircraft is only relevent if its something fast eg. F16) or bloody big eg. 747. Apart from that, ATC generally do a very good job.
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Overcontrolling by ATC, especially military ones
Refusal of Class D transits, even when they ain't busy...
Otherwise, no complaints. I must say I did cringe last week when hearing a PPL calling up Southend for RIS when 30 miles to the west en route the weekend Le Touquet lunch trip. He obviously had no idea what an acceptable standard of R/T was..
Refusal of Class D transits, even when they ain't busy...
Otherwise, no complaints. I must say I did cringe last week when hearing a PPL calling up Southend for RIS when 30 miles to the west en route the weekend Le Touquet lunch trip. He obviously had no idea what an acceptable standard of R/T was..
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OK I'll bite.
If by "acceptable standard of RT" you actually mean "Call the most appropriate ATC Unit". I am sure that, given a position 30 miles west, the guys at Southend would have suggested Le Touquet man call someone more suitable such as Farnborough Radar (East), Biggin Hill or London Information. Or maybe the Pilot had heard about the Zone transit and conflict avoidance "service" (see my previous post) and decided to stay "well clear"!
OK I'll bite.
If by "acceptable standard of RT" you actually mean "Call the most appropriate ATC Unit". I am sure that, given a position 30 miles west, the guys at Southend would have suggested Le Touquet man call someone more suitable such as Farnborough Radar (East), Biggin Hill or London Information. Or maybe the Pilot had heard about the Zone transit and conflict avoidance "service" (see my previous post) and decided to stay "well clear"!
