Highland Flying School - Opinions?? (Merged)
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Even if the risk is 100,000 to 1, if you are that one loser, you lose it all, not a percentage of it.
Leave lending money to banks - they are very experienced at it, after all
Leave lending money to banks - they are very experienced at it, after all
Admittedly, when I paid in advance for my NPPL course, I had extremely limited information on my club's finances. What I would like to see, before doing it again, is something like "out of 100 people in the UK who pay money into club's credit accounts, X lose it due to insolvency". Based on that X being 4 or 40, I would then decide if and how much to 'gamble'.
BabyBear, glad to see a few sensible voices too, in here.
Deeday
Last edited by Deeday; 24th Mar 2009 at 21:59. Reason: typo
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I rspect the idea that anyone can choose to lose their money if they want. As I said, the risk is yours to take, however, I personally think anyone who pays big sums upfront to a flying school, knowing that they are about as stable as Barings Bank, does need their head examined.
10 years ago, I might have been tempted, but the bitter experience of people who have lost their money has left it's mark. From youngsters who have scraped together as much as they could and then lost it all, to people having to give up on flying as a career after a commercial school went bye byes taking tens of thousands with it.
If you can deal with people like that on an almost daily basis for 10 years and not get a bit passionate about this subject, then you are one cold individual.
I've never lost a penny in this way, but I've seen a whole heap of flying schools go out of business and the fallout from it.
So you'll forgive me if I don't pay much attention to people who haven't much experience and try to base an argument on limited knowledge.
Of course not every school goes bust and not everyone who puts money "on account" loses it, but the simple fact is that you are trusting your money to people who frankly don't warrant it on many occasions.
10 years ago, I might have been tempted, but the bitter experience of people who have lost their money has left it's mark. From youngsters who have scraped together as much as they could and then lost it all, to people having to give up on flying as a career after a commercial school went bye byes taking tens of thousands with it.
If you can deal with people like that on an almost daily basis for 10 years and not get a bit passionate about this subject, then you are one cold individual.
I've never lost a penny in this way, but I've seen a whole heap of flying schools go out of business and the fallout from it.
So you'll forgive me if I don't pay much attention to people who haven't much experience and try to base an argument on limited knowledge.
Of course not every school goes bust and not everyone who puts money "on account" loses it, but the simple fact is that you are trusting your money to people who frankly don't warrant it on many occasions.
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The simple fact is, that you as a punter have absolutely no idea of how financially stable a flying school really is.
If they don't offer any pay-up-front deals they're pretty stable.
If they offer a pay-up-front deal which works out at an interest rate higher than a sensible bank loan they they're dodgy as hell, because this means that they've already tried to borrow from the bank and been turned down for being too risky. If the bank won't lend them money what makes you think you're better placed to judge the risk?
The only case that isn't immediately obvious is a school which offers a very slight discount on pay-up-front deals, so that they're paying you slightly less interest than they would have to pay on a bank loan, and you're earning slightly more interest than you would earn on a bank savings account, ie the deal is set to split the bank's mark-up. That probably means they're likely to be OK, as it suggests that the bank will still lend them money if they need it.
Of course ... this is pre-credit-crunch conventional wisdom, and relies on two basic facts of financial life which may no longer be true:
(1) banks are a better judge of risk than you are
(2) banks lend at a higher rate than they borrow.
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That's about right GTW!
All the schools I've worked for that I know are financially stable, haven't offered anything but very limited upfront offers.
The occasional hour building package to try and help out members on limited budgets, but not the upfront full training packages.
All the schools I've worked for that I know are financially stable, haven't offered anything but very limited upfront offers.
The occasional hour building package to try and help out members on limited budgets, but not the upfront full training packages.
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Code:
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/366728-highland-flying-school-administration-4.html
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SAS, I agree with a lot of what you say and GTW makes some valid points. What I object to are the needless insults and generalistaions.
Yes there are risks, as with any transaction (I am sure you have taken some), but it is simply nonsense to say people pay up front to schools they know are in trouble, to suggest all schools are in trouble and that paying up front is never good. There are reasons other than cash flow for offering packages.
It would be much more constructive and professional to use your experience to advise of the potential pitfalls and considerations before making any payments, rather than insulting those that have done so, especially those who are feeling **** at having lost money. They don't need you, or anyone else, telling them they need their heads examined at this point in time.
Do you really think that is professional behaviour, from a so called professional?
It's not that I totally disagree with what you are saying as much as it is how you are saying it.
Yes there are risks, as with any transaction (I am sure you have taken some), but it is simply nonsense to say people pay up front to schools they know are in trouble, to suggest all schools are in trouble and that paying up front is never good. There are reasons other than cash flow for offering packages.
It would be much more constructive and professional to use your experience to advise of the potential pitfalls and considerations before making any payments, rather than insulting those that have done so, especially those who are feeling **** at having lost money. They don't need you, or anyone else, telling them they need their heads examined at this point in time.
Do you really think that is professional behaviour, from a so called professional?
It's not that I totally disagree with what you are saying as much as it is how you are saying it.
Last edited by BabyBear; 24th Mar 2009 at 11:36.
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I must admit I have payed up front for hour building but its always had a very short period until it has been used up i.e less than a week.
The schools are just basically using you as a free loan.
Anyway its up to the individual if you can afford to loose it take the gamble if you can't don't.
The schools are just basically using you as a free loan.
Anyway its up to the individual if you can afford to loose it take the gamble if you can't don't.
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Some reading here may need this...
Administrator
Mr. Darral Warwick
Armstrong Watson
Fairview House
Victoria Place
CA1 1HP
T: 01228 591000
I spoke to the airport today. They have not been told what to do with any contents of the building and have secured it for all obvious reasons, this includes training records.
I was with HFS and have around 14 hours. Now looking for another provider who can take learning credits and hopefully fly tomahawks... HAC?
Mr. Darral Warwick
Armstrong Watson
Fairview House
Victoria Place
CA1 1HP
T: 01228 591000
I spoke to the airport today. They have not been told what to do with any contents of the building and have secured it for all obvious reasons, this includes training records.
I was with HFS and have around 14 hours. Now looking for another provider who can take learning credits and hopefully fly tomahawks... HAC?
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SAS, I agree with a lot of what you say and GTW makes some valid points. What I object to are the needless insults and generalistaions.
Yes there are risks, as with any transaction (I am sure you have taken some), but it is simply nonsense to say people pay up front to schools they know are in trouble, to suggest all schools are in trouble and that paying up front is never good. There are reasons other than cash flow for offering packages.
It would be much more constructive and professional to use your experience to advise of the potential pitfalls and considerations before making any payments, rather than insulting those that have done so, especially those who are feeling **** at having lost money. They don't need you, or anyone else, telling them they need their heads examined at this point in time.
Do you really think that is professional behaviour, from a so called professional?
It's not that I totally disagree with what you are saying as much as it is how you are saying it.
Yes there are risks, as with any transaction (I am sure you have taken some), but it is simply nonsense to say people pay up front to schools they know are in trouble, to suggest all schools are in trouble and that paying up front is never good. There are reasons other than cash flow for offering packages.
It would be much more constructive and professional to use your experience to advise of the potential pitfalls and considerations before making any payments, rather than insulting those that have done so, especially those who are feeling **** at having lost money. They don't need you, or anyone else, telling them they need their heads examined at this point in time.
Do you really think that is professional behaviour, from a so called professional?
It's not that I totally disagree with what you are saying as much as it is how you are saying it.
I am using my "professionalism" by telling people not to pay upfront. This isn't a new thing and if you check out threads as far back as the day Pprune started, you'll see people giving the same advice.
People who have lost their money, I'm very sorry for, but the advice not to pay upfront has been out there as long as flying schools have existed.
Simply put, don't pay upfront, though if you are going to, then do it on your credit card.
There is no other advice that is worth a jot.
What I find amusing is that this is now a thread about how another school has gone bust (it actually caught me by surprise that, I'd always thought Highland one of the more stable schools) and that people have lost money, and yet there are still people banging on about how paying upfront might be a good idea.
What more evidence do you need?
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Difficult to give any sort of statistics but at my local airfield since the early 1990s there have been at least 7 different 'flying clubs'. All of them went bust, most of them quietly without hundereds of creditors. One particularly however - Flight Academy Scotland - took a lot of punters and traders money with them.
To those who paid up front and saved money - try buying lottery tickets, you're obviously naturally lucky!
To those who paid up front and saved money - try buying lottery tickets, you're obviously naturally lucky!
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I think it was the "mental" comment I have upset southerners before calling them that. Very insecure about there own mental health.
I found though that they don't get upset if you call them a daft fud though.
I found though that they don't get upset if you call them a daft fud though.
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The Highland flying school has assets mostly in the form of aircraft. When these have been sold and the accountant has looked at the balance sheet then those who are owed money will be paid. Simple. No one is running off and hiding with a pot of money. It will of course take time to sort out.
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SAS, as I said those who have lost money don't need comments like this;
Paying upfront is frankly mental.
I think you're nuts
Utterly mental
need their head examined
If you think that the use of such comments in the offering of advice is professional behaviour then your definition of professional may be questionable. And if you don't consider them insulting then maybe it's you that is, 'one cold individual'.
Paying upfront is frankly mental.
I think you're nuts
Utterly mental
need their head examined
If you think that the use of such comments in the offering of advice is professional behaviour then your definition of professional may be questionable. And if you don't consider them insulting then maybe it's you that is, 'one cold individual'.
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Well, frankly you are nuts if you pay upfront.
I'm not here to go "there, there" for people who lost money.
There is nothing I or anyone (except the asset strippers) can do about it, except to make the point that hopefully someone might read and think twice about paying upfront in the future.
If you want my professional services, then you can pay for them, if you want my opinion, you can have that for free.
Ya fud.
I'm not here to go "there, there" for people who lost money.
There is nothing I or anyone (except the asset strippers) can do about it, except to make the point that hopefully someone might read and think twice about paying upfront in the future.
If you want my professional services, then you can pay for them, if you want my opinion, you can have that for free.
Ya fud.
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SAS
Exactly, there is nothing you can do about it, so why come on here and insult folks that have already lost money, don't you think they already feel bad enough?
Do you think others reading your comments are going to be impressed by your professionalism and be more inclined to take your advice, or do you do it just for kicks?
Do you think others reading your comments are going to be impressed by your professionalism and be more inclined to take your advice, or do you do it just for kicks?
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Check my earlier post, in the case of the Highland Flying School people are owed money, no one has actually been told they will not get a refund.This will take time, it took me 7 months to get my airfare money after the collapse of Oasis Airlines.
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At what point have I actually insulted the people who lost money? My comments were aimed at rebuffing the comments made that paying upfront is actually a good idea.
I made my points bluntly admittedly, but given the fact that people are still putting money into flying clubs with no security despite the comments from people who have been around for more than 5 minutes, then how else do you make people listen?
I am sorry that people may lose money, but if the comments about HFS owning the aircraft without any debt on them are true (I have no reason to disbelieve them) then people should get their money back. If they do, then they are lucky and hopefully will learn a lesson from it, but without actually losing their money. Most people who have money on account when their school goes to the wall are not so lucky. They usually find out when they turn up for a lesson and find that the school has simply disappeared.
Flying is very unforgiving of silly mistakes, be they financial or in the air. Sometimes the lessons are harsh.
I made my points bluntly admittedly, but given the fact that people are still putting money into flying clubs with no security despite the comments from people who have been around for more than 5 minutes, then how else do you make people listen?
I am sorry that people may lose money, but if the comments about HFS owning the aircraft without any debt on them are true (I have no reason to disbelieve them) then people should get their money back. If they do, then they are lucky and hopefully will learn a lesson from it, but without actually losing their money. Most people who have money on account when their school goes to the wall are not so lucky. They usually find out when they turn up for a lesson and find that the school has simply disappeared.
Flying is very unforgiving of silly mistakes, be they financial or in the air. Sometimes the lessons are harsh.
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Get a room chaps, your points have been made, this is just going around in circles now.
I think MJ sums this kind of thing up nicely,
I think MJ sums this kind of thing up nicely,
Anyway its up to the individual if you can afford to loose it take the gamble if you can't don't.