Trimming, Landing & Instructors - HELP!!!
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Yes, there's a very good reason for removing your hand from the thrust levers at V1. However, while you may be perfectly open to learning and may never need a raised voice, some do.
I'd be dead today if I stayed a quiet, meek, nudge-em-gently type of pilot. One need not carry on a routine conversation by shouting, but every bit as much as distractions, suggestions, pauses, questions, and other techniques have their place, shouting does occasionally do the trick, and may be very well necessary to jog someone back to reality. If you haven't found this to be the case thus far, with more experience, you may.
Some years ago I found myself in the right seat of a Learjet with a newly minted pilot who required a great deal of supervision. He was given a clearance to descend, and an airspeed restriction to meet. He put out the speed brakes and retarded the power to idle. As I made the thousand foot call approaching the altitude, I noted that he showed no inclination to reduce his rate of descent. His airspeed was bleeding off rapidly and he showed no incination of increasing power or retracting the speed brakes, either.
After several calls of a normal-tone "Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed," it became "AIRSPEED, AIRSPEED, AIRSPEED, ALTITUDE, ALTITUDE, ALTITUDE." I pushed the thrust levers up, and he yanked them to idle. I pried his fingers off the spoiler switch and retracted them, he thumbed them out and clamped his hand down over them. Not consciously, mind you; he was locked into a slow-down and go-down mindset, and was otherwise unresponsive and staring straight ahead. I continued to increase the volume and the tone of my insistance as I used both hands to physically remove him from the controls and take control of the airplane. After I pushed him back in his seat, away from the controls, and a very excited ride-on mechanic who was accompanying us joined me in the cockpit to see what was going on, the catatonic pilot suddenly popped back to life. He turned and looked at me, and said quietly, "you don't have to shout."
We were in mountainous terrain, and descended well below our altitude. We were flaps up, and slowed well below our minimum airspeed.
Don't have to shout? Yes, I do. When the situation calls for it, yes, I do.
The thing is, from an instructor's point of view, I'll decide when that might be. Not the student.
I'd be dead today if I stayed a quiet, meek, nudge-em-gently type of pilot. One need not carry on a routine conversation by shouting, but every bit as much as distractions, suggestions, pauses, questions, and other techniques have their place, shouting does occasionally do the trick, and may be very well necessary to jog someone back to reality. If you haven't found this to be the case thus far, with more experience, you may.
Some years ago I found myself in the right seat of a Learjet with a newly minted pilot who required a great deal of supervision. He was given a clearance to descend, and an airspeed restriction to meet. He put out the speed brakes and retarded the power to idle. As I made the thousand foot call approaching the altitude, I noted that he showed no inclination to reduce his rate of descent. His airspeed was bleeding off rapidly and he showed no incination of increasing power or retracting the speed brakes, either.
After several calls of a normal-tone "Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed," it became "AIRSPEED, AIRSPEED, AIRSPEED, ALTITUDE, ALTITUDE, ALTITUDE." I pushed the thrust levers up, and he yanked them to idle. I pried his fingers off the spoiler switch and retracted them, he thumbed them out and clamped his hand down over them. Not consciously, mind you; he was locked into a slow-down and go-down mindset, and was otherwise unresponsive and staring straight ahead. I continued to increase the volume and the tone of my insistance as I used both hands to physically remove him from the controls and take control of the airplane. After I pushed him back in his seat, away from the controls, and a very excited ride-on mechanic who was accompanying us joined me in the cockpit to see what was going on, the catatonic pilot suddenly popped back to life. He turned and looked at me, and said quietly, "you don't have to shout."
We were in mountainous terrain, and descended well below our altitude. We were flaps up, and slowed well below our minimum airspeed.
Don't have to shout? Yes, I do. When the situation calls for it, yes, I do.
The thing is, from an instructor's point of view, I'll decide when that might be. Not the student.
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As a low hours PPL, who only got his licence recently, I won't presume to comment on trimming technique but perhaps I can comment on instruction.
I changed schools after about 10 hours or so. I got on fine with my first instructor, or so I thought, but I always felt like I was really bad at flying, to the extent where I nearly gave it up as a bad job. It was only when, through illness, I had a different instructor that I realised "I'm not that bad after all." Shortly after that, I realised that I couldn't go any further with the first instructor. Unfortunately, the second instructor was fully booked, so I ended up changing schools and the rest of my PPL training was with an excellent and totally unflappable instructor.
The point is, a cockpit is a fairly intense learning environment. Though we don't consciously think about it, the stakes are pretty high in the flying game, and you have to be very comfortable with the person that you sit beside. Any 'vibes' in the cockpit will quickly be assimilated, even if they aren't consciously acknowledged.
As for the shouting, I guess it can have its place, although my recent instructor's frosty silences were always a very effective aide-memoire when I'd forgotten something or got it wrong. Perhaps your instructor knows you're a good student, and his shouting is a measure of frustration when you don't perform up to your usual level. So it might actually be a backhanded sort of compliment. On the other hand, it might just be the sign of a bad instructor, or an instructor having a bad day. The question to ask yourself is, do you still trust the instructor as a working partner?
My recommendation, FWIW, would be to try another instructor, as soon as you get the chance, and see what difference it makes. If you've only flown with the one instructor, at the very least it's an opportunity to calibrate your progress and to see if another teaching style might suit you better.
Pilot DAR - don't judge the 'clipboard' instructor too harshly. When I was taking clarinet lessons at school, my teacher used to crack me under the kneecap with the bottom of his clarinet if I fluffed my sightreading. Not really to hurt, but just as a reminder to concentrate. It never made me fall out with the teacher, and I got near full marks for sightreading in every exam I took. Now if only he'd done that with my scales too ...
I changed schools after about 10 hours or so. I got on fine with my first instructor, or so I thought, but I always felt like I was really bad at flying, to the extent where I nearly gave it up as a bad job. It was only when, through illness, I had a different instructor that I realised "I'm not that bad after all." Shortly after that, I realised that I couldn't go any further with the first instructor. Unfortunately, the second instructor was fully booked, so I ended up changing schools and the rest of my PPL training was with an excellent and totally unflappable instructor.
The point is, a cockpit is a fairly intense learning environment. Though we don't consciously think about it, the stakes are pretty high in the flying game, and you have to be very comfortable with the person that you sit beside. Any 'vibes' in the cockpit will quickly be assimilated, even if they aren't consciously acknowledged.
As for the shouting, I guess it can have its place, although my recent instructor's frosty silences were always a very effective aide-memoire when I'd forgotten something or got it wrong. Perhaps your instructor knows you're a good student, and his shouting is a measure of frustration when you don't perform up to your usual level. So it might actually be a backhanded sort of compliment. On the other hand, it might just be the sign of a bad instructor, or an instructor having a bad day. The question to ask yourself is, do you still trust the instructor as a working partner?
My recommendation, FWIW, would be to try another instructor, as soon as you get the chance, and see what difference it makes. If you've only flown with the one instructor, at the very least it's an opportunity to calibrate your progress and to see if another teaching style might suit you better.
Pilot DAR - don't judge the 'clipboard' instructor too harshly. When I was taking clarinet lessons at school, my teacher used to crack me under the kneecap with the bottom of his clarinet if I fluffed my sightreading. Not really to hurt, but just as a reminder to concentrate. It never made me fall out with the teacher, and I got near full marks for sightreading in every exam I took. Now if only he'd done that with my scales too ...
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I'm still training for a PPL so I'm not well placed to offer any advice on flying technique. However, I have had three instructors so far; I had five lessons with Cabair and then switched to another school due purely to cost. My next instructor got a place with an airline so I'm now with my third. None of these instructors ever shouted at me and never ripped my technique apart while I was flying. All comments were delivered clearly and calmly and the one time the instructor (Cabair) ever touched the controls during landing he preceeded his action with "Let me help you here" before he lifted the nose slightly before touchdown.
If I may be so bold as offer this note: Many flying schools employ young men and women who have little life experience. Attaining their technical flying qualifications has generally been the focus of their attention for years and all of a sudden they are thrust into a position of relative responsibility and influence that requires good people skills. Some of these individuals are able to handle this but some simply cannot! They are not the gods that (some) believe they are. If your instructor continues to behave this way then request a change and DO NOT feel bad about it.
If I may be so bold as offer this note: Many flying schools employ young men and women who have little life experience. Attaining their technical flying qualifications has generally been the focus of their attention for years and all of a sudden they are thrust into a position of relative responsibility and influence that requires good people skills. Some of these individuals are able to handle this but some simply cannot! They are not the gods that (some) believe they are. If your instructor continues to behave this way then request a change and DO NOT feel bad about it.
"Catatonic" Pilots
Like SN3SGuppy, I was flying with a pilot in a Viscount simulator who managed to get upside down at 16,000' and just sat there all the way to the ground.
I did shout several times -- no response. As it was a simulator and I was going to be able to walk away whatever happened, I did not whack him in the head.
But I still wonder how I should handle the next case.
There was a recent glider accident where the pilot left the spoilers out while the glider sank into the trees.
These are cases of extreme fixation where the brain shuts out perceived extraneous input in favor of the perceived task at hand.
It would be nice to know what short of physical force would get the pilot to snap out of it as auditory input seems to be shut out in these cases.
Perhaps blocking the pilot's vision with a chart would get his attention.
I did shout several times -- no response. As it was a simulator and I was going to be able to walk away whatever happened, I did not whack him in the head.
But I still wonder how I should handle the next case.
There was a recent glider accident where the pilot left the spoilers out while the glider sank into the trees.
These are cases of extreme fixation where the brain shuts out perceived extraneous input in favor of the perceived task at hand.
It would be nice to know what short of physical force would get the pilot to snap out of it as auditory input seems to be shut out in these cases.
Perhaps blocking the pilot's vision with a chart would get his attention.
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I do recall being told once about a generally accepted method of instructors extending their arm out, and firmly pushing the student back via the chest if they ever freeze up on the controls. True?
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I would suggest finding not just one (new?) instructor, but flying with several different instructors. I had six instructors during my PPL, doing most of my training alternating between three instructors on every other flight. It was awesome! They all taught the same syllabus but in slightly different ways and with slightly different styles, and the learning experience got far richer from it. One would be better at spotting and sorting out any specific problems I might have; another might come up with particularly useful exercises to help me move along faster; the third was great at giving me tougher challenges with more "chewing resistance", leaving me a slightly humbled but far better pilot after each lesson.
I know some students don't like that approach at all, while others prefer it. Might be worth a try!
I know some students don't like that approach at all, while others prefer it. Might be worth a try!
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You're doing fine, I also did go through this fase as student. I think you need to go solo, just to feel more confident. Once you do a circuit on your own and you see you can manage this you'll advance further. I doesn't mean of course you're perfect already at circuits, but you need a boost.
I also don't recommend switching instructors in the beginning. I did this and all they did was confusing me, because they all flew a little bit different from each other. And I had to adapt to the instructor each time, instead of learning the right thing. Once you have the basics done, you can consider changing instructor, just because two teacher can learn you more than one experience wise.
Conserning the trim, you have to feel it in very calm weather the first time. Let go of the stick, see what the nose is doing on the horizon (rising/descending) and trim likewise. Then change power setting, see what the nose does, trim, let go of the stick, see what the nose does, retrim until you get it. Once you have the feel for this, you can manage proper trim jobs when there is less time to think about trimming, or when there is turbulence. (I as student had the big problem to try to trim out turbulences-stupid of course).
About the 20 feet above the runway thing, I think the instructor didn't want you to land, but try to keep the aircraft straight and level above the runway. So you need power management to not let go the aircraft on the ground.
I also don't recommend switching instructors in the beginning. I did this and all they did was confusing me, because they all flew a little bit different from each other. And I had to adapt to the instructor each time, instead of learning the right thing. Once you have the basics done, you can consider changing instructor, just because two teacher can learn you more than one experience wise.
Conserning the trim, you have to feel it in very calm weather the first time. Let go of the stick, see what the nose is doing on the horizon (rising/descending) and trim likewise. Then change power setting, see what the nose does, trim, let go of the stick, see what the nose does, retrim until you get it. Once you have the feel for this, you can manage proper trim jobs when there is less time to think about trimming, or when there is turbulence. (I as student had the big problem to try to trim out turbulences-stupid of course).
About the 20 feet above the runway thing, I think the instructor didn't want you to land, but try to keep the aircraft straight and level above the runway. So you need power management to not let go the aircraft on the ground.
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Closure....!!
Hi all. Thanks for all the advice. To complete the thread, I finally went solo last night and all went well. I had a chat with the instructor and we found some middle ground with the landings and on the 2nd all was well, allowing me to do a further 3 faultless then solo. In his view I would have made the examiner twitchy with my initial flare technique so I've got to repect that. I agree with the use of a number of different instructors for greater experience, though in my view in this first phase I feel continuity is better for all concerned.
The big thing I did notice was that once solo the control in flare (C152) was much more sensitive? I first noticed this lightness of control in transition to approach when I was maintaining level flight to prevent any balloon on deploying flaps. People only seem to mention expecting the increased climb rate though it seemed to me a lighter touch in pitch was required and the lighter aircraft was much more 'floaty' which I guess at the same approach speeds is what you'd expect? This is obvioulsy after only one intense experience so others please correct me if you see differently. Thanks again.
Lazy George - I don't want to name any specifics. However, to help you - I did a fair amount of research before I started out and spoke to schools at Barton, Blackpool and Liverpool - all seemed very professional. This episode excepted, I have no other complaints and though we pay a lot for it, I guess sometimes we've got to accept that instructing is a tough job and everyone can have an off-day so please don't let this put you off.
The big thing I did notice was that once solo the control in flare (C152) was much more sensitive? I first noticed this lightness of control in transition to approach when I was maintaining level flight to prevent any balloon on deploying flaps. People only seem to mention expecting the increased climb rate though it seemed to me a lighter touch in pitch was required and the lighter aircraft was much more 'floaty' which I guess at the same approach speeds is what you'd expect? This is obvioulsy after only one intense experience so others please correct me if you see differently. Thanks again.
Lazy George - I don't want to name any specifics. However, to help you - I did a fair amount of research before I started out and spoke to schools at Barton, Blackpool and Liverpool - all seemed very professional. This episode excepted, I have no other complaints and though we pay a lot for it, I guess sometimes we've got to accept that instructing is a tough job and everyone can have an off-day so please don't let this put you off.
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If you got a stall warning horn as you gently touched, you probably had a
great landing too
great landing too
What control can you possibly have of your aircraft if it is at stall speed? What would happen if there was a problem and you had to apply full power?
Every instructor has their own pet beliefs about what are the absolutely essential rules to flying. They often contradict each other. Come skills test day one is pleasantly surprised that the examiner is a lot more relaxed and will remind you of what really IS important.
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Originally Posted by DavidHoul52
My instructor would kill you if she heard you say this!
What control can you possibly have of your aircraft if it is at stall speed? What would happen if there was a problem and you had to apply full power?
What control can you possibly have of your aircraft if it is at stall speed? What would happen if there was a problem and you had to apply full power?
Or we can do the shouty-shouty thing now. Up to you.
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I can't resist...
I would like to fly with that instructor. One of us is going to learn something. The word "Instructor" attached to a person's flying license does little to give me confidence that the person has any super pilot skills. They may, they may not. "Instructor" has little to do with it.
A long time ago I had occasion to give an instructor a ride home in my Cessna 150. The instructor was on edge from the very beginning, as I was and am only a Private Pilot, surely he was extending himself beyond his comfort level letting me fly (my plane). What made it worse, there are no right side controls in my plane, all he could do was sit - helpless - Ha!
I told him, as we neared our destination, that I would be orbiting a feature on the ground for a minute, at a very slow speed, and did so. We were out of the airport traffic area, and well above 1000' AGL. I orbited. Ok, I tested his patience, I orbited really slowly. My STOL equipped 150 is capable of very slow airspeeds with 40 flap out. He said nothing. I landed. He lived, but still said nothing...
Days later his boss, for whom I regularly demonstrated STOL kit equipped Cessnas of all different models, said do you want to know what (instructor) said about you flying? I could not resist, what?... "what an idiot, he was flying around in circles, below stall speed!" The boss, himself a very skilled pilot, asked the instructor "if the plane was below stall speed, why did it not stall?" Super pilot had no answer for that. He moved on soon after. He forgot that wings don't stall at a speed, they stall at an angle of attack. I never commanded that angle of attack, until nearly touching the runway upon landing.
You will find that should you be permitted supervised flight into the realm between 1G and 0G, that the plane can be flown, and easily controlled at extremely slow speeds without stalling. This because it does not have the angle of attack, because at less than 1G it's not trying to create the same amount of lift. Please don't try this unsupervised, though I am confident that your instructor should be qualified to safely demonstrate this for you. Don't worry, the wings won't fold until you reach a negative G load of 1.52 X 1.5. You'll be sreaming "stop" long before that!
We can all learn from each other. If your instructor has all the answers, the group here can offer some new and interesting questions to challenge her.
Here's a small part of the applicable design standard for you to discuss with your instructor.
523.77 Balked Landing
(a) [Each normal, utility, and aerobatic category reciprocating engine-powered aeroplane of 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight must be able to maintain a steady gradient of climb at sea level of at least 3.3 percent with:
(1) [Takeoff power on each engine;
(2) [The landing gear extended;
(3) [ The wing flaps in the landing position, except that if the flaps may safely be retracted in two seconds or less without loss of altitude and without sudden changes of angle of attack, they may be retracted; and
[(4) A climb speed equal to VREF, as defined in 523.73(a).
Note the part where it says full flaps.
When I said stall warning, you thought stall. There is ample speed between the warning and the actual stall, and a landing can be safely made within that margin in any plane you'd be training in. Further to that, when I do the aforementioned balked landing (full flap overshoot) demonstration, I do it from a power off approach, add full power, and I'm content if the flaps stay at full until well iestablished in the climb. If I have just a little stall warning as I add full power and raise the nose, that's okay too, I know just where I am in the aircraft's lift drag relationship. I do not do these from the ground, but the design implication would be that you could if you had to. Yes, it is possible to take off with full flap, though nearly never an approved procedure in the flight manual, so don't do it.
I recently did an unexpected full flap, full power overshoot at 10' AGL in an amphibian very similar to a Lake amphibian - engine way up high. No problem, power full, control the plane, regard the pipping stall warning, and go around. They're designed to do that. In that plane, it's a required practice element for buggered up water landings.
You are being taught in a conservative and safe environment (I hope). As you gain experience, you will learn that planes can do a lot more than you think, and safely at that. A good read through FAA Part 23 (the origin of the passage above) is really worth the time. You'll come to know what you can expect the aircraft to be able to do to keep you safe.
On to the next commenter....
Pilot DAR
I would like to fly with that instructor. One of us is going to learn something. The word "Instructor" attached to a person's flying license does little to give me confidence that the person has any super pilot skills. They may, they may not. "Instructor" has little to do with it.
A long time ago I had occasion to give an instructor a ride home in my Cessna 150. The instructor was on edge from the very beginning, as I was and am only a Private Pilot, surely he was extending himself beyond his comfort level letting me fly (my plane). What made it worse, there are no right side controls in my plane, all he could do was sit - helpless - Ha!
I told him, as we neared our destination, that I would be orbiting a feature on the ground for a minute, at a very slow speed, and did so. We were out of the airport traffic area, and well above 1000' AGL. I orbited. Ok, I tested his patience, I orbited really slowly. My STOL equipped 150 is capable of very slow airspeeds with 40 flap out. He said nothing. I landed. He lived, but still said nothing...
Days later his boss, for whom I regularly demonstrated STOL kit equipped Cessnas of all different models, said do you want to know what (instructor) said about you flying? I could not resist, what?... "what an idiot, he was flying around in circles, below stall speed!" The boss, himself a very skilled pilot, asked the instructor "if the plane was below stall speed, why did it not stall?" Super pilot had no answer for that. He moved on soon after. He forgot that wings don't stall at a speed, they stall at an angle of attack. I never commanded that angle of attack, until nearly touching the runway upon landing.
You will find that should you be permitted supervised flight into the realm between 1G and 0G, that the plane can be flown, and easily controlled at extremely slow speeds without stalling. This because it does not have the angle of attack, because at less than 1G it's not trying to create the same amount of lift. Please don't try this unsupervised, though I am confident that your instructor should be qualified to safely demonstrate this for you. Don't worry, the wings won't fold until you reach a negative G load of 1.52 X 1.5. You'll be sreaming "stop" long before that!
We can all learn from each other. If your instructor has all the answers, the group here can offer some new and interesting questions to challenge her.
Here's a small part of the applicable design standard for you to discuss with your instructor.
523.77 Balked Landing
(a) [Each normal, utility, and aerobatic category reciprocating engine-powered aeroplane of 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight must be able to maintain a steady gradient of climb at sea level of at least 3.3 percent with:
(1) [Takeoff power on each engine;
(2) [The landing gear extended;
(3) [ The wing flaps in the landing position, except that if the flaps may safely be retracted in two seconds or less without loss of altitude and without sudden changes of angle of attack, they may be retracted; and
[(4) A climb speed equal to VREF, as defined in 523.73(a).
Note the part where it says full flaps.
When I said stall warning, you thought stall. There is ample speed between the warning and the actual stall, and a landing can be safely made within that margin in any plane you'd be training in. Further to that, when I do the aforementioned balked landing (full flap overshoot) demonstration, I do it from a power off approach, add full power, and I'm content if the flaps stay at full until well iestablished in the climb. If I have just a little stall warning as I add full power and raise the nose, that's okay too, I know just where I am in the aircraft's lift drag relationship. I do not do these from the ground, but the design implication would be that you could if you had to. Yes, it is possible to take off with full flap, though nearly never an approved procedure in the flight manual, so don't do it.
I recently did an unexpected full flap, full power overshoot at 10' AGL in an amphibian very similar to a Lake amphibian - engine way up high. No problem, power full, control the plane, regard the pipping stall warning, and go around. They're designed to do that. In that plane, it's a required practice element for buggered up water landings.
You are being taught in a conservative and safe environment (I hope). As you gain experience, you will learn that planes can do a lot more than you think, and safely at that. A good read through FAA Part 23 (the origin of the passage above) is really worth the time. You'll come to know what you can expect the aircraft to be able to do to keep you safe.
On to the next commenter....
Pilot DAR
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I, for one, would like to know how many nosewheels she or her students have ruined so far.
Oh, and as for "no control in stalled flight": go and get some aerobatics lessons. There are quite a few things you can do when flying slower than Vs (1g stall speed) and you can stall at higher speeds than Vs as well. Not to mention that some of the most spectacular aerobatics figures require you to stall, otherwise they won't even work.
Oh, and as for "no control in stalled flight": go and get some aerobatics lessons. There are quite a few things you can do when flying slower than Vs (1g stall speed) and you can stall at higher speeds than Vs as well. Not to mention that some of the most spectacular aerobatics figures require you to stall, otherwise they won't even work.
After several calls of a normal-tone "Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed," it became "AIRSPEED, AIRSPEED, AIRSPEED, ALTITUDE, ALTITUDE, ALTITUDE." I pushed the thrust levers up, and he yanked them to idle. I pried his fingers off the spoiler switch and retracted them, he thumbed them out and clamped his hand down over them. Not consciously, mind you; he was locked into a slow-down and go-down mindset, and was otherwise unresponsive and staring straight ahead. I continued to increase the volume and the tone of my insistance as I used both hands to physically remove him from the controls and take control of the airplane. After I pushed him back in his seat, away from the controls, and a very excited ride-on mechanic who was accompanying us joined me in the cockpit to see what was going on, the catatonic pilot suddenly popped back to life. He turned and looked at me, and said quietly, "you don't have to shout."
I once had to take control from a student in a 4-jet as he was about to cock up a crosswind landing at an international airport - only to find that the aircraft wasn't in trim either. He hadn't trimed quickly enough when reducing speed following a low drag approach. No amount of call outs would have resolved that, but he relinquished control as ordered and the landing was safe.
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I originally wrote:
To which was the reply:
Sorry guys - I don't get it. I haven't seen one intelligent reason for this inappropriately rude comment.
You can stall when doing aerobatics because you have thousands of feet to recover.
Also Pilot DAR, not all aircraft can take off with full flap. There was just such an accident in the US when the flap circuit breaker popped during a touch and go and the pilot did not realise that the flaps were still down. It might be that you CAN go around after the stall-warner has sounded but that's not an argument that you SHOULD hold off that long, is it?
I agree with my instructor (a far better instructor than some I've been with who insist on stupid rules and flying by numbers)- you need a firm landing in strong wind conditions. A gentle landing is not necessarily a good one. Agreed the main wheels should land before the nose wheel but that is possible at 65 -70 kts (in a Cessna) - you don't have to be at stall speed.
If you want to debate this then let it be thoughtful and informed. Don't yell and scream - that's the point Okavongo made at the very start of this thread.
What control can you possibly have of your aircraft if it is at stall speed?
yours was a quintessential expression of the purest form of utter bollocks
You can stall when doing aerobatics because you have thousands of feet to recover.
Also Pilot DAR, not all aircraft can take off with full flap. There was just such an accident in the US when the flap circuit breaker popped during a touch and go and the pilot did not realise that the flaps were still down. It might be that you CAN go around after the stall-warner has sounded but that's not an argument that you SHOULD hold off that long, is it?
I agree with my instructor (a far better instructor than some I've been with who insist on stupid rules and flying by numbers)- you need a firm landing in strong wind conditions. A gentle landing is not necessarily a good one. Agreed the main wheels should land before the nose wheel but that is possible at 65 -70 kts (in a Cessna) - you don't have to be at stall speed.
If you want to debate this then let it be thoughtful and informed. Don't yell and scream - that's the point Okavongo made at the very start of this thread.
Last edited by DavidHoul52; 15th Sep 2008 at 16:58.
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... and to add my 2p's worth on the original issue...
I agree that getting shouted by instructors during training is often counter-productive. The student gets upset and as a result can't focus properly. I spoke to one student who said he put up with this for 60 hours before deciding to change school!
Having said that I found that as a student I also had a change in attitude myself after much frustration in the circuit. As adults we resent people telling us we've done something wrong once we feel that it's something we've already mastered. We feel that making mistakes means we are hopeless and we're never going to get out of the circuit!
You have to realise that making mistakes and getting things wrong that you previously got right is just part of learning to fly. You are not doing worse than before, it's just that the instructor has raised the bar because he/she knows what you are capable of.
Eating humble pie can be difficult but it's the fastest way to save money and get your PPL!
I agree that getting shouted by instructors during training is often counter-productive. The student gets upset and as a result can't focus properly. I spoke to one student who said he put up with this for 60 hours before deciding to change school!
Having said that I found that as a student I also had a change in attitude myself after much frustration in the circuit. As adults we resent people telling us we've done something wrong once we feel that it's something we've already mastered. We feel that making mistakes means we are hopeless and we're never going to get out of the circuit!
You have to realise that making mistakes and getting things wrong that you previously got right is just part of learning to fly. You are not doing worse than before, it's just that the instructor has raised the bar because he/she knows what you are capable of.
Eating humble pie can be difficult but it's the fastest way to save money and get your PPL!
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You can stall when doing aerobatics because you have thousands of feet to recover.
But since you're introducing height into the argument: there are manoevers that cannot be done without a stall of one or two wings, but can be done without height loss. In fact, if you do a flick roll in an upline you are even gaining height during the (stalled) manoever. Oh, and a complete sequence in an aerobatics competition will normally include at least one, but maybe as many as three or four fully stalled manoevers in a box extending no more than 3500' from the surface. If you need "thousands of feet to recover" you die. Or, if you're lucky, you're disqualified.
Next time you go up with your instructor, see if you can do the following: with the power at idle (and carb heat on) try to maintain your altitude. Ignore the stall warner, ignore the buffet but just continue to pull until the elevator hits the stops and keep it there. Keep the ailerons neutral and only correct wing drops with the rudder. Yes, with the rudder. Resist the temptation to use the ailerons. You are now in a perfectly stalled condition and (hopefully) in perfect control of the airplane. Notice the ROD by the way - it will not be nearly as much as you might think it will be reading this. This is just slightly beyond the PPL syllabus but will show you that an aircraft can be controlled when stalled. (Don't do this without an instructor though, even once you have the license, and make sure you have plenty height when you do lose the plot and the wing drops too far to recover with the rudder.)
The safest way to land an aircraft, any aircraft, in any conditions, is to fly it until it won't fly no more. That means slowing it down to very near the stall speed and since the stall warner should be set somewhere like 5 to 10 knots above Vs at MTOW, you should hear the stall warner briefly. Anything faster than this is not necessarily unsafe but will increase tire wear and landing distance, and has a higher chance of bouncing, PIO and things like that.
This doesn't have anything to do with a gentle or a firm landing either. Yes, a gentle landing is better on the tires and is appreciated by the passengers, but as you say in a firm crosswind or gusting conditions it might be better to plant it down a little more firmly to get proper sideways control from the main gear a bit earlier.
If you want to debate this then let it be thoughtful and informed.
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We are going to have to agree to disagree on this! You have no basis whatsoever for making an absolute categorical statement on this. An aircraft is NOT SAFE when it is just above the ground at near stalling speed and there are strong gusts of wind about.
Sometimes it's worthwhile to rethink what you have always believed to be true.
I won't be up with my instructor. I'm a fully qualified PPL.
Do what you say was NOT a recommendation by the CAA examiner who took my skills test. He was perfectly happy with the landings I made.
and yes I have been really there.
I resent your patronising attitude.
Sometimes it's worthwhile to rethink what you have always believed to be true.
I won't be up with my instructor. I'm a fully qualified PPL.
Do what you say was NOT a recommendation by the CAA examiner who took my skills test. He was perfectly happy with the landings I made.
and yes I have been really there.
I resent your patronising attitude.
Last edited by DavidHoul52; 15th Sep 2008 at 17:53.
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(Don't do this without an instructor though, even once you have the license, and make sure you have plenty height when you do lose the plot and the wing drops too far to recover with the rudder.)
When there are strong gusts of wind about, you have more control while still in the air than you have at flying speed on the ground. I still want to land at the lowest possible speed = stall speed or just above.
While it may be possible to put the main wheels on before the nose at 65 - 70 kts, at least with reduced flap settings, it leaves absolutely no margin for error... So gusty conditions would seem like the worst possible time for such maneuvers, wouldn't it?