More AFPEx Madness!!!

[TotalBeginner]

Apparently, London INFO and the London FBU are now refusing to activate (i.e send a DEP message) for VFR flight plans that were filed using AFPEx.

A couple of days ago, a friend and I planned to fly to Le Touquet. We filed both the outbound and return FPL's using AFPEx and addressed them according to CAP550.

Once airbourne, we called London INFO and requested that the FPL be activated. We were told that this was not possible due to the FPL originating online. We didn't argue and returned home.

After making a few phone calls we were given a very "loose" explanation. But I'm still not sure I fully understand. Apparently, when flight plans are filed by the FBU, the plan (and addressees) are saved with the callsign. When a DEP message is sent, they simply copy the addresses from the original FPL. If you file using AFPEx, they don't have a copy of the original addressees and so have to hand address the departure message which is apparently too time consuming... Utter madness!

So what are the options? Sit at the holding point with your laptop switched on?

[S-Works]

I rasied this awhile ago about AFPx. I don't think it was ever intended as a tool for the small VFR or evn IFR flyer to put online plans in but rather as a tool for airfields and FBO's with staff and a fixed installation. It is the tecnhogeeks amongst us that have seized on it as a way of filing plans when operating from our private strips and unmanned aerodromes.

I have used it quite a few times for IFR planning and it works well enough if you are prepared to carry the laptop and sign in.

But at the end of the day I have gone back to the good old method of sending a plab to London and letting the team there deal with it. Always works a treat.

[dublinpilot]

I can't believe that could possibly true! It must be a misunderstanding?

[jollyrog]

I have a user account for this but haven't actually used it yet. Was thinking of doing so at the weekend, for a LeTouquet trip. (Probably going to be blown out by weather, but that's another story...)

Will this nonsense affect plans filed via Homebriefing?

[MANAGP]

Did you right click the addressees box and add VFR addresses? This hsould have ensured that your flight plan was sent to the relevant FIRs, otherwise it will have only been sent to Departure, Destination and Alternate airfields.

I wouldn't have returned, the FIR controllers are civil servants and are effectively paid by the tax payer. If they can't produce a workable system then we shouldn't have to suffer the consequences!

[TotalBeginner]

I can't believe that could possibly true! It must be a misunderstanding?

Exactly what I thought! Surely there must be a way around it?

Did you right click the addressees box and add VFR addresses? This hsould have ensured that your flight plan was sent to the relevant FIRs, otherwise it will have only been sent to Departure, Destination and Alternate airfields.

The issue wasn't with the original FPL. After sending it we called LFAT and they confirmed that it had been received. The issue is with the DEP message.

[Wrong Stuff]

Originally Posted by bose-x

I rasied this awhile ago about AFPx. I don't think it was ever intended as a tool for the small VFR or evn IFR flyer to put online plans in but rather as a tool for airfields and FBO's with staff and a fixed installation. It is the tecnhogeeks amongst us that have seized on it as a way of filing plans when operating from our private strips and unmanned aerodromes.

The original intention certainly was to make it a tool for GA pilots. If you remember, about 18 months ago quite a few of the regular GA flight-plan filers got a telephone call asking what we'd want from a tool, what browsers we used, etc. I'd be surprised if you weren't one of the people they called.

I certainly remember telling them at the time that it would be useless for me unless it was usable on the move from a mobile-phone browser. I'm not surprised that got particular requirement didn't make it to the final specs, but it was certainly always intended for use by GA pilots, otherwise they wouldn't have been ringing us asking for our views.

[MANAGP]

Sorry TB

I get you now. Like I said I'd have got them to do it! The more people who demand it done the more feedback the Afpex people will get.



Also

The helpdesk is open 24 hours on:

[phone]

or if you prefer

[phone]

[bookworm]

So what are the options? Sit at the holding point with your laptop switched on?

The procedure is in AIP SUP 7/2008.

8.1 ... If there is no ATSU at the departure aerodrome, or the ATSU is not connected to the AFTN, the pilot is responsible for ensuring that a departure message is passed by one of the following means:

(a) AFPEx (if the FPL has been filed via AFPEx) then to activate the FPL and enable the DEP message to be sent to the appropriate addressees, arrangements should be made for a 'responsible person' on the ground to telephone the departure time to the Helpdesk;

(b) FIS Exceptionally, the FISO at the ACC will accept departure times on RTF from pilots who have departed from aerodromes where there is no ATSU, or it is outside the hours of operation. The pilot is to request the FIS to pass the departure time to the AFPEx Helpdesk through which the FPL was submitted, for input. ...

I would have thought that FIS would be fairly well switched on to the last bit now, but your experience indicates at least the potential for their misunderstanding.

[IO540]

The original intention certainly was to make it a tool for GA pilots

I couldn't agree more.

Somebody in the system seems to have dropped the ball.

There is however a remaining issue with AFPEX which affects IFR pilots: you need to have internet connectivity the whole time up to (nearly) departure, in case a slot gets issued for your flight plan. Normally the tower would get a copy of the slot message and they would advise you but you need to have the radio on all the time (be sitting in the plane) on the tower frequency. This is why many people will continue to use homebriefing.com because they send you SMS messages for slots etc.

And mobile internet access to AFPEX is a major problem because of the ~ 5MB java download which is enforced on every login. On GPRS, this makes the service nearly unusable (of the order of 30 mins download) and while it would work on 3G, if you are on PAYG the cost would be about £20-£50 just to log in. Only contract data users with monthly allowances (these are not usual when abroad, roaming) will get around this, though of course at a price paid indirectly. AFPEX should get rid of that completely pointless download.

I will use AFPEX for flight plans on which there is no possibility of a slot (VFR, or IFR wholly OCAS), and use Homebriefing for the rest.

[SwanFIS]

Just checked with Heathrow FBU and also the AFPEx people at Swanwick and there should have been no problem sending a DEP on your flight.

Our instructions on FIS are to pass all airborne times (wherever they have been filed) to Heathrow FBU for fpl activation. The FBU say they have been very busy but there have been no technical problems stopping them sending DEP messages.

If the FISO is unable to get through to the FBU the AFPEx team will happily send DEPs. They also report no system problems recently stopping them doing so.

I am back at work tomorrow and will check further but at the moment it seems like FISO / pilot / FBU / AFPEx misunderstanding.

Edit to add - If anybody else experiences problems getting London Info to activate your plan could you send me a pm with c/s, date, dep airfield and time and I will endevour to ascertain why.

[MANAGP]

IO540

I'd ring the Afpex helpdesk every 5 mins to check for a slot improvement. They'll get the idea eventually!

[MANAGP]

SwanFIS

All a bit conveluted! I had great problems geting a DEP signal sent for a homebriefing.com flightplan about 2 months ago. The FIS controller was helpful but didn't have any idea what I was talking about.
Surely a terminal at London/Scottish FIS is the way to go, not calling folk on the phone!

If the UK came up with a dogs b**-* system it would be great and we'd have Johnny Foreigner queuing up to use it, as it is now we're all emigrating!

[SwanFIS]

MANAGP

Some FISOs are not aware of the many ways that fpls can be filed these days. I for one had not heard about homebriefing until a month or so ago. I will circulate some information about this at work tomorrow which will hopefully stop this problem arising.

In the meantime as I have said above, any problems pm me.

As for an AFPEx terminal, believe it or not that would be more of a hassle than phoning.

[MANAGP]

SwanFIS
Thanks for your input. Have a look at Homebriefing.com it's really quite good!

[bookworm]

I had great problems geting a DEP signal sent for a homebriefing.com flightplan about 2 months ago.

That's a different issue.

For AFPEx, there's a clearly set out procedure. FISO contacts AFPEx helpdesk, and it's the AFPEx team that find the FPL and send the DEP to the appropriate addressees.

If you file a VFR FPL via another method, whether homebriefing or your friendly local ATC, neither London Info nor Heathrow FBU would easily know who you sent the FPL to, and therefore who to send the DEP message to, would they? IFR is easier as it just goes to IFPS.

[IO540]

I think AFPEX is actually very good but one needs to use it for what it is good at. The huge majority of flight plans filed by UK GA are VFR ones - either going abroad (mandatory) or used in flight training or when flying in remote areas or just wanting to file one for fun. Previously, NATS had a large # of people whose time was spent mostly taking these by fax or phone or some other system, and entering them into the AFTN while adding addressing information out of some VFR addressing book (AIUI). Regardless of what one thinks on the subject of what services should be provided to VFR GA which already enjoys freedom from route charges, it was IMHO plainly only a matter of time before somebody decided this staffing is not an efficient way to spend money.

What I think NATS did wrong is that they delivered a very powerful tool which could be mis-used (not that I have tried but from what I see it certainly can be) and they then had to put the silly security around it.

If they had simply created a two-tier user base (one being airfields/ATC and the other being aircraft owners) and on the latter they limited the access only to specified aircraft tail numbers (which for most people would be their own plane, or a few others if it's a school) they would not have needed the security.

And for VFR, AFPEX works fine. You get no ACK message so that is no different to the old VFR flight plan filing systems where - despite having filed it via some apparently friendly human interface - the only way to check if it actually got anywhere was to telephone the departure or arrival aerodromes! That's just the way VFR flight plans work.

And IIRC the DOF/ parameter was never properly supported so if you tried to file a FP say 2 days in advance it would quite likely never get anywhere. Homebriefing incidentally deals with DOF/ correctly, by retaining the FP in its computer and injecting it into the AFTN only on the relevant day (AFAIK).

It is for IFR, admittedly a much smaller pilot population, that AFPEX is potentially a slightly problematic tool, due to the lack of a slot reporting mechanism. It is however super in the way you get back the ACK or the 'fail' messages - in just seconds, allowing you to resubmit fast; a lot faster than with Homebriefing where the filing can take a few minutes. However, with good route generation tools this is not a problem.

If you file a VFR FPL via another method, whether homebriefing or your friendly local ATC, neither London Info nor Heathrow FBU would easily know who to send the DEP message to, would they? IFR is easier as it just goes to IFPS.

I am sure that this one has been solved, because Homebriefing has been around a few years now, and I know for sure a lot of users fly out of strips. Would the DEP message not go to the same addresses as the original FP? I reckon sending it to the destination only would actually do.

What exactly happens if you get airborne to say France without a DEP message? Does the FP get deleted after a certain time? And what if the DEP was sent to the destination only? If there is auto deletion, how is this managed - do the FPs get stored on some computer?

[TotalBeginner]

What exactly happens if you get airborne to say France without a DEP message? Does the FP get deleted after a certain time? And what if the DEP was sent to the destination only? If there is auto deletion, how is this managed - do the FPs get stored on some computer?

The FPL doesn't get deleted. But, the French probably wouldn't initiate overdue action if you had to ditch in the channel.

[IO540]

If the FP got sent to the destination (only), wouldn't they realise if you vanished somewhere?

Or is overdue action done only by enroute FIS offices?

What exactly does DEP do, on a VFR flight plan?

[A and C]

No problems........so far

As of yet I have had no problems having used the system two or three times a week as I commute to work in France.

Most of the plans have been VFR, with one or two IFR.

Totalbeginner

I would have continued the flight as NATS own the problem if they cant activate a FPL in the system they have set up!