More AFPEx Madness!!!
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From: UK
If the FP got sent to the destination (only), wouldn't they realise if you vanished somewhere?
Or is overdue action done only by enroute FIS offices?
What exactly does DEP do, on a VFR flight plan?
Or is overdue action done only by enroute FIS offices?
What exactly does DEP do, on a VFR flight plan?
I see your point. What is the purpose of distributing the DEP message to all of the addressees? Why not just send it to the original destination?
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From: Bisley
TB
If only life in aviation really was that automated
The AFTN is purely a method of transmitting and receiving messages of various types DEP, ARR, CNL, CHG etc.
A DEP is sent when you leave and your fpl elapsed time will be manually added to it by ATC at your destination to calculate your arrival time. It is this time that ATC use to base overdue action on. Some airfields will work of the fpl estimate even if they do not receive a DEP message so it is important to keep the fpl details up to date with CHG, DLA or CNL messages.
If only life in aviation really was that automated
The AFTN is purely a method of transmitting and receiving messages of various types DEP, ARR, CNL, CHG etc.A DEP is sent when you leave and your fpl elapsed time will be manually added to it by ATC at your destination to calculate your arrival time. It is this time that ATC use to base overdue action on. Some airfields will work of the fpl estimate even if they do not receive a DEP message so it is important to keep the fpl details up to date with CHG, DLA or CNL messages.
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
The original intention certainly was to make it a tool for GA pilots. If you remember, about 18 months ago quite a few of the regular GA flight-plan filers got a telephone call asking what we'd want from a tool, what browsers we used, etc. I'd be surprised if you weren't one of the people they called.
I certainly remember telling them at the time that it would be useless for me unless it was usable on the move from a mobile-phone browser. I'm not surprised that got particular requirement didn't make it to the final specs, but it was certainly always intended for use by GA pilots, otherwise they wouldn't have been ringing us asking for our views.
I certainly remember telling them at the time that it would be useless for me unless it was usable on the move from a mobile-phone browser. I'm not surprised that got particular requirement didn't make it to the final specs, but it was certainly always intended for use by GA pilots, otherwise they wouldn't have been ringing us asking for our views.
Yes I remember that but I don't think what they delivered here was in line with that original survey. As I recall what people wanted was a simple web page that they could complete and hit send that would result in a flight plan going into the system with a simple ACK, maybe an SMS or something. What we have with AFPx is a full FBO tool that is beyond the needs of the small aviatior in my humble opinion. I find it useful for airways flight as it gives direct access to IFPS but for VFR it is overly complex.
Just my 2 cents.
Thread Starter
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From: UK
If only life in aviation really was that automated The AFTN is purely a method of transmitting and receiving messages of various types DEP, ARR, CNL, CHG etc.
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From: EuroGA.org
As I recall what people wanted was a simple web page that they could complete and hit send
But it has a huge massive problem which makes it unattractive to 99.9% of UK GA pilots.
It costs money! A Brit will never pay for something which he can get for nothing, simply by wasting half an hour hanging around the airport doing it manually using some terminal in the briefing room. If there is a briefing room.
Euro 4 per flight plan filed, approx. This is so much more than the pilot spends on avgas on the flight he is filing.
But seriously, a "simple web page" (with no login security) was never an option because any old moron could have used it to spam the system with thousands of flight plans, starting with a Concorde flight from Goodwood to Bembridge and then moving onto more serious stuff. This is where a bit of imagination comes in: if you validate a list of permitted tail numbers, you avoid the need for security completely.
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From: UK
I am sure that this one has been solved, because Homebriefing has been around a few years now, and I know for sure a lot of users fly out of strips. Would the DEP message not go to the same addresses as the original FP? I reckon sending it to the destination only would actually do.
11.4.2.2.6 DEPARTURE (DEP) MESSAGES
11.4.2.2.6.1 Unless otherwise prescribed on the basis of
regional air navigation agreements, a DEP message shall be
transmitted immediately after the departure of an aircraft for
which basic flight plan data have been previously distributed.
11.4.2.2.6.2 The DEP message shall be transmitted by
the ATS unit serving the departure aerodrome to all recipients
of basic flight plan data.
It's this that I think might lead to a reluctance to send a DEP message relating to a FPL originated by someone else. But if you specifically request that a DEP is sent to your destination, that doesn't mean that the request would necessarily be refused.
What exactly happens if you get airborne to say France without a DEP message? Does the FP get deleted after a certain time? And what if the DEP was sent to the destination only? If there is auto deletion, how is this managed - do the FPs get stored on some computer?
The key questions are, if a DEP message is not sent for a flight to France for which a FPL has been filed:
a) am I in breach of regulation and likely to get into trouble in France?
and
b) will someone come looking for me if I ditch in the Channel?
My guesses would be "probably not" and "maybe".
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From: EuroGA.org
Bulldog clips and drawing pins are still a popular part of the information infrastructure.
And this is why they sometimes get lost in batches. I once had three vanish in one go - all had a DOF/ on them.IMHO, the reason why you can depart without a flight plan on your way to le Touquet, and just bluff your way along, is precisely because of this - so many get lost anyway that there is an informal system for ignoring them.
IFR is different - all computerised.
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From: Bristol
Made my first attempt at using AFPEX for a VFR flight from a UK regional airport to the channel islands last weekend. All properly addressed as far as I could tell. Result was a worried phone call from the departure ATSU, just as I was walking out to the aircraft, because they thought my plan "might not have been properly addressed".
It turns out that the FPL message they received via AFPEX did not show the list of other addressees, hence their concern. They thought they were the only ones to have received the message. I reassured them by reading the address list from my printed copy of the FPL message.
In the event the flight proceeded just fine, with en-route and destination controllers having the details, so presumably they managed to activate the plan, but it seems the system still has a few wrinkles.
It turns out that the FPL message they received via AFPEX did not show the list of other addressees, hence their concern. They thought they were the only ones to have received the message. I reassured them by reading the address list from my printed copy of the FPL message.
In the event the flight proceeded just fine, with en-route and destination controllers having the details, so presumably they managed to activate the plan, but it seems the system still has a few wrinkles.
Last edited by brisl; 1st August 2008 at 11:58. Reason: Clarify it was a VFR flight
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From: EuroGA.org
It turns out that the FPL message they received via AFPEX did not show the list of other addressees, hence their concern. They thought they were the only ones to have received the message. I reassured them by reading the address list from my printed copy of the FPL message.
What seems to happen is that the tower does not receive what they call the supplementary info i.e. the # of dinghies, colour, etc.
The tower is also unable for some reason to forward the flight plan to the other places - not realising that they don't need to because you have already addressed it to those places.
The tower was also using AFPEX and they said they are new to it and are still sussing it out.
Mind you, I got them very suprised when I started using homebriefing.com - they could not understand how I was sitting on the tarmac under their nose, while a flight plan for me popped up on their printer, from Vienna!!
For farm strip departures where no human help with an AFPEX terminal can be arranged, the need to inject the DEP message into the system could be done in various clever ways. Somebody could set up a PC running the AFPEX terminal, with a GSM modem connected to it, and you would send out an SMS message to the modem which would cause a DEP message to be entered. This would be quite tacky to program I reckon, due to the need to fake mouse clicks and keystrokes on the java AFPEX terminal software but it's obviously possible. Any anybody's AFPEX terminal could be used - doesn't have to be yours - because there is no tail number restriction.
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From: up North
What seems to happen is that the tower does not receive what they call the supplementary info i.e. the # of dinghies, colour, etc.
With the old system the departure ATC unit usually has the printed plan in their mitts and are therefore used to seeing the Item 19 information. If the destination airfield gets worried about your lack of arrival one of their first actions is to sent an RQS message - the departure airfield then sends this as a SPL message.
What I am unsure about is the mechanism in use with AFPEx. If you are sending plans from home then how does the departure airfield get hold of the SPL data? It's no use sending an RQS message to the originating address because you aren't there...
-------------------
The AFPEx system is good but it gives you a full blown terminal and the same facilities as any ATC unit. It's complexity can be confusing - especially for VFR flights - so I applaud pilots who have got to grips with it. ATC have a lot of training in flight planning and they process enough plans to learn the nuts and bolts of the system (and the foibles of VFR addressing). Having said that addressing had become so complex by the 1980's that the publication of CAP550 was somewhat of a life saver for all of us.
Although it is possible for pilots to learn the ropes by reading the documents (especially CAP694) it is a lot to wade through before you can bang your first plan into the system. Initial reading may lead to more questions than answers especially if you don't have a friendly ATC guy handy to bounce your queries off.
Purely my own view but I suspect AFPEx will work better at unit level rather than an individual level - say an Ops Dept or a flying club. At least there is someone there to send DEP messages or receive incoming messages like SPL's or slot revisions. As AFPEx is similar to an AFTN station it works best if manned. I'm willing to be corrected on this by SwanFIS.
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From: UK
What I am unsure about is the mechanism in use with AFPEx. If you are sending plans from home then how does the departure airfield get hold of the SPL data? It's no use sending an RQS message to the originating address because you aren't there...
2.7 The AFPEx Helpdesk monitors the user mailboxes and in the interests of safety will respond to SS priority messages if they are unacknowledged in a user mailbox for longer than 1 minute. In the case of an RQS (Request for Supplementary information) message being received, the Helpdesk staff will respond to the request on behalf of the AFPEx user if no action has been taken by them. A message is sent to the Mailbox confirming that this has been done.
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From: EuroGA.org
If you are sending plans from home then how does the departure airfield get hold of the SPL data? It's no use sending an RQS message to the originating address because you aren't there...
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From: Livin de island life
I tried AFPex last month - two IFR flightplans at low-level across 3 countries in europe. Weather and tech problems meant we had to make changes and delays - this was a nightmare. We usually print the ACK message and carry that in the aircraft but I (eventually) found that AFPex requires you type in field numbers to make changes 
There is also no list of your flightplans that you can pick from.
Impractical and obscure; I've gone straight back to homebriefing which is, IMNSHO, well designed and user friendly. Worth the cost.
A private Kingair driver of my acquaintance didn't get as far as actually filing a flightplan before rushing back to the Austrian offering.
There is also no list of your flightplans that you can pick from.
Impractical and obscure; I've gone straight back to homebriefing which is, IMNSHO, well designed and user friendly. Worth the cost.
A private Kingair driver of my acquaintance didn't get as far as actually filing a flightplan before rushing back to the Austrian offering.
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From: up North
Another thing is that the departure airfield could close before your due arrival time, so the RQS would have failed under the old system too.
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From: EuroGA.org
we used to send the SPL data for all aircraft still airborne after our closing time. I suspect this was the exception rather than the rule - we enforced it just after one such incident.
Who did you address the message to?
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From: Bristol
So if, as seems likely from the posts on this thread, VFR AFPEx flight plans are regularly causing difficulty/confusion for UK departure airfields/controllers, has anybody any experience of using AFPEx for a European departure, inbound to the UK? I.e., how do, say French, towers get on with this system?
On a second point: has anybody tried using AFPEx from an internet cafe or such like as suggested in the introductory blurb from AFPEx? My experience is that most internet cafes block the JNLP launcher so you can't use the system unless you carry your own computer abroad - and then you need to find WiFi access because using a mobile phone for internet access is either too slow or very expensive due to the big download.
On a second point: has anybody tried using AFPEx from an internet cafe or such like as suggested in the introductory blurb from AFPEx? My experience is that most internet cafes block the JNLP launcher so you can't use the system unless you carry your own computer abroad - and then you need to find WiFi access because using a mobile phone for internet access is either too slow or very expensive due to the big download.
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From: up North
Who did you address the message to?
Ensure that SPL details are passed to London ATCC Supervisor for all non airways flights that have submitted flight plans and are likely to remain airborne at close of watch.
FF EGZYIFPS
220835 EGxxZPZX
(FPL-XYZ803-IS
-DH8D/M-S/C
-EGAC1330
-N0260F150 B3 HON DCT WCO LOREL2A
-EGGW0120 EGSS
-REG/GJECD)
The rest of the FPL details remained on the paper copy unless required and that copy would be stored for three months. If anyone needed the additional data such as Item 19 then it would be necessary to contact the ATS unit at which the plan had been filed - and this may not necessarily be the point of departure.
With AFPEx your complete plan (including Item 19) is input into the PC so I presume the system stores all the data but only sends the essential bit above. At least the additional data is more easily available than via the normal FPL submission process.
Last edited by jabberwok; 3rd August 2008 at 18:57.
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From: Bath
So if, as seems likely from the posts on this thread, VFR AFPEx flight plans are regularly causing difficulty/confusion for UK departure airfields/controllers, has anybody any experience of using AFPEx for a European departure, inbound to the UK? I.e., how do, say French, towers get on with this system?
In short, no problems so far
Ian
PS I also file outbound from a strip. London Info have always 'opened' the flightplan on request.
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From: EuroGA.org
It's not normal, of course. The download should take place only if you have an obsolete version on the client machine. This mandatory download seems to be a deliberate action by AFPEX developers - my guess is that they did it for extra 'security'.
There is a thread on flyer.co.uk where somebody has found a way to make the download work only when required, by editing the properties of the java object, but the edits will be lost when it's downloaded again.
The other solution is to never close the terminal application (but merely log out of it) which means the only way to shut down your PC is by using the hibernation mode (which I don't use because bluetooth drivers often don't come out of hibernation properly - windoze does need a reboot regularly).
I guess this is one problem with java - you never know when the vendor is going to hit you with an updated version, and if you are on a good 3G connection you could blow away £XXX within minutes.
There is a thread on flyer.co.uk where somebody has found a way to make the download work only when required, by editing the properties of the java object, but the edits will be lost when it's downloaded again.
The other solution is to never close the terminal application (but merely log out of it) which means the only way to shut down your PC is by using the hibernation mode (which I don't use because bluetooth drivers often don't come out of hibernation properly - windoze does need a reboot regularly).
I guess this is one problem with java - you never know when the vendor is going to hit you with an updated version, and if you are on a good 3G connection you could blow away £XXX within minutes.
Last edited by IO540; 4th August 2008 at 06:49.