Filser TRT800 Transponder - problems ... ?
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 119
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From: uk
My brother has a TRT 600 in his Ikarus C42 "permit aircraft". It's about 3 years old now and has performed without any problems.
I recently had to install a new transponder into my RV6 and chose the garmin 328, fantastic bit of kit.
I have noticed that the LAA won't approve any further radio installation at the moment with a filser transponder, lets hope they sort it out soon.
I recently had to install a new transponder into my RV6 and chose the garmin 328, fantastic bit of kit.
I have noticed that the LAA won't approve any further radio installation at the moment with a filser transponder, lets hope they sort it out soon.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
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From: Midlands
“In a couple of years time without Mode S you won't be able even to leave these shores for a spot of European Touring.”
That has not yet been decided, and appears unlikely.
IF I have to upgrade I will probably go for the TRIG. All the reports I have come across are good and it is a plug compatible for my BK. Whatever you do follow the CAA advice and avoid the Garmin 328 or you run a big risk of having to scrap it when phase 3 comes in.
Rod1
That has not yet been decided, and appears unlikely.
IF I have to upgrade I will probably go for the TRIG. All the reports I have come across are good and it is a plug compatible for my BK. Whatever you do follow the CAA advice and avoid the Garmin 328 or you run a big risk of having to scrap it when phase 3 comes in.
Rod1
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
From: uk
Rod 1 your probally right I was told that the 328 doesn't have ADS-B capability but also if and when that ever comes in for europe could be anyones guess. If you want to play it safe the Garmin 330 does it all. Don't think there's even that much difference in price I payed £1500 for the 328 fitted and I think the 330 was another £300. I did look at the trig and I'm sure it performs well but maybe it's me but it just has that A level electronics class look.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: Southampton
CAA AIC for TRT800
Off the back of the EASA AD 2008-0158 comes this AIC:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/810/INTERN...D2008-0158.pdf
Note that it is more onerous than the AD (which was little more than a placarding exercise), mandating that the unit cannot be used in class A & C, Class D & E (under IFR), above FL100 and in NTMZ (and should even be switched off whilst VFR in class D/E).
As a Garmin dealer I have to say ...... "Always thought those boxes looked a bit iffy"
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/810/INTERN...D2008-0158.pdf
Note that it is more onerous than the AD (which was little more than a placarding exercise), mandating that the unit cannot be used in class A & C, Class D & E (under IFR), above FL100 and in NTMZ (and should even be switched off whilst VFR in class D/E).
As a Garmin dealer I have to say ...... "Always thought those boxes looked a bit iffy"
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,158
Likes: 62
From: 51.50N 1W (ish)
As both a Garmin and Funkwerk dealer, there has been virtually no difference in reliability until the present situation, where the Funkwerk units, designed, tested and approved by EASA and EUROCOM have problems in areas of high interrogation density. So much for standards.
After testing modifications and flight trials there is an EASA approved modification, following which serviced units will have the AD withdrawn, a modified AD is in the pipeline.
http://www.funkwerk-avionics.com/cms...eInfo_05_E.pdf
After testing modifications and flight trials there is an EASA approved modification, following which serviced units will have the AD withdrawn, a modified AD is in the pipeline.
http://www.funkwerk-avionics.com/cms...eInfo_05_E.pdf
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
From: Midlands
Just to clarify, the only mode s transponder which I am aware of which will not comply with phase 3 is the garmin 328. There is no timescale for phase 3, but as I would expect 10 years plus from a new transponder I will get one which does comply. The TRT800 with the fix will be on my list but is not as easy to fit as the TRIG if you have an existing BK mode c. No plan to fit mode s for the time being though. We will know the result of the second consultation soon.
Rod1
Rod1
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 201
Likes: 9
From: Fareham
Rod
You seem to know better than most what is going on. I fly from a strip in Class D airspace. In simple terms do I need to do anything to keep me flying next year?
If the answer is yes, I'm pretty much settled on the Filser unit. I have a 2.25" hole pre-cut in my panel and all the wiring and static system already installed. Assuming Filser get the unit sorted is this a sensible course of action?
Is the alternative Becker unit any better/worse? It needs a separate encoder so ultimately costs more and has more wiring (which is more to go wrong).
You seem to know better than most what is going on. I fly from a strip in Class D airspace. In simple terms do I need to do anything to keep me flying next year?
If the answer is yes, I'm pretty much settled on the Filser unit. I have a 2.25" hole pre-cut in my panel and all the wiring and static system already installed. Assuming Filser get the unit sorted is this a sensible course of action?
Is the alternative Becker unit any better/worse? It needs a separate encoder so ultimately costs more and has more wiring (which is more to go wrong).
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: Southampton
Automated Air-Gnd Switching for Mode S
When considering an installation of Mode S, be aware that the current line of thinking from the CAA is that an automated means of Air/Gnd mode switching being required. (TGL 13 Rev 1 specifies a means of selecting GND mode on the ground although not specifically automatic)
With retractables that would normally mean squat switch connection, and whilst at present the CAA allow fixed gear to be approved without automated Air/Gnd they are considering insisting that all fits have automated switching.
This means that even the 'direct slot in' replacements need some modification to existing looms.
I guess if your installer already has a pre-approved series mod for the aircraft type they could get round this but otherwise expect to need squat switch wiring :-)
Regards
N
With retractables that would normally mean squat switch connection, and whilst at present the CAA allow fixed gear to be approved without automated Air/Gnd they are considering insisting that all fits have automated switching.
This means that even the 'direct slot in' replacements need some modification to existing looms.
I guess if your installer already has a pre-approved series mod for the aircraft type they could get round this but otherwise expect to need squat switch wiring :-)
Regards
N
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
From: Too close to EASA
Becker BXP6401
Becker produce a miniature encoder which plugs directly onto the rear connector of the transponder, so no additional wiring is required. Of course, if you have an existing encoder, you can still use it.
The only problem with Becker is getting hold of units - can be up to 8 weeks even when buying direct from the factory as an approved dealer!
The only problem with Becker is getting hold of units - can be up to 8 weeks even when buying direct from the factory as an approved dealer!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,158
Likes: 62
From: 51.50N 1W (ish)
Hi Nipper
the Becker and Funkwerk (ex-Filser) are both good 57mm panel mount instruments, and easy to install. The Becker can have a 'dongle' encoder which minimises its wiring; the Funkwerk has a built in encoder so is even easier (2 wires, + volts and ground with a supplied wired connector/code unit, and static presure).
The certification standard requires the 24bit code to be 'fixed to the airframe' (the wording is longer and more convoluted, but means effectively that). The Becker has another dongle you chain to the aircraft and unplug if you change the set; the Funkwerk has a bit of Flash Memory in the plug at the back.
Funkwerk is a bit smaller and lighter, and currently more cost effective (once the AD business is sorted out). I suspect to keep market share it will stay that way. Also, UK dealers have stock, Becker is longer delivery - not a problem if you plan ahead.
Interesting that the CAA seem to want to insist on an extra requirement (air/ground switching) not required in the rest of Europe. Remind me why we all come under a common EASA system?
the Becker and Funkwerk (ex-Filser) are both good 57mm panel mount instruments, and easy to install. The Becker can have a 'dongle' encoder which minimises its wiring; the Funkwerk has a built in encoder so is even easier (2 wires, + volts and ground with a supplied wired connector/code unit, and static presure).
The certification standard requires the 24bit code to be 'fixed to the airframe' (the wording is longer and more convoluted, but means effectively that). The Becker has another dongle you chain to the aircraft and unplug if you change the set; the Funkwerk has a bit of Flash Memory in the plug at the back.
Funkwerk is a bit smaller and lighter, and currently more cost effective (once the AD business is sorted out). I suspect to keep market share it will stay that way. Also, UK dealers have stock, Becker is longer delivery - not a problem if you plan ahead.
Interesting that the CAA seem to want to insist on an extra requirement (air/ground switching) not required in the rest of Europe. Remind me why we all come under a common EASA system?
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
From: Midlands
Assuming VFR flight (I am not up to date on IFR).
You will not need a transponder at all next year to fly from your strip.
The Filser is, as has been said, lighter, cheaper and has a built in encoder.
I have not come across the air/ground-switching requirement at all. Is this IFR or all fits? I do not see how this could be done in some F/G aircraft. It was not mentioned at any of the CAA meetings I attended.
Rod1
You will not need a transponder at all next year to fly from your strip.
The Filser is, as has been said, lighter, cheaper and has a built in encoder.
I have not come across the air/ground-switching requirement at all. Is this IFR or all fits? I do not see how this could be done in some F/G aircraft. It was not mentioned at any of the CAA meetings I attended.
Rod1
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 964
Likes: 43
From: 30 West
We have a Filser 800A but aren't flying yet. It's been back for one mod and after an email this afternoon, Adams came back very swiftly to say that a mod is in production and would be implemented as soon as released.
With good customer service like this, I can't complain - all comapnies have snags, it's how they address and fix them that counts
With good customer service like this, I can't complain - all comapnies have snags, it's how they address and fix them that counts
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 201
Likes: 9
From: Fareham
Rod
Sorry to be a pain, but will I need a transponder to fly through other class D airspace from next year.
And if anyone can tell me how I will fit an air-ground switch to a Tipsy Nipper please let me know. Are they having a laugh?
Sorry to be a pain, but will I need a transponder to fly through other class D airspace from next year.
And if anyone can tell me how I will fit an air-ground switch to a Tipsy Nipper please let me know. Are they having a laugh?
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
From: Midlands
”Sorry to be a pain, but will I need a transponder to fly through other class D airspace from next year.”
In the UK you will not need one unless the area is designated a TMZ (Transponder Mandatory Zone). The Scottish TMA above a certain altitude and the London TMA for now, not aware of any others coming in.
Whilst you do not need mode s for class D transit I am sure you would get easier transit with it.
“And if anyone can tell me how I will fit an air-ground switch to a Tipsy Nipper please let me know. Are they having a laugh?”
As I said it would be very hard in some aircraft. The LAA will approve a standard installation without the switch and you do not need CAA mod approval so I would not worry about it.
I have mixed memories of my Nipper ownership (G-AXLI)
Rod1
In the UK you will not need one unless the area is designated a TMZ (Transponder Mandatory Zone). The Scottish TMA above a certain altitude and the London TMA for now, not aware of any others coming in.
Whilst you do not need mode s for class D transit I am sure you would get easier transit with it.
“And if anyone can tell me how I will fit an air-ground switch to a Tipsy Nipper please let me know. Are they having a laugh?”
As I said it would be very hard in some aircraft. The LAA will approve a standard installation without the switch and you do not need CAA mod approval so I would not worry about it.
I have mixed memories of my Nipper ownership (G-AXLI)
Rod1
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: Southampton
As I mentioned in the previous post the CAA have said F/G is ok for the time being but all retractables have to have automated A/G switching.
I have argued that the wording of TGL13 do not specify "Automated" and tried to get a mod approved stating it pilots responsibilty to selectr GND mode but got that squarely refused LOL
Cant even use a 429 output from a GNS series anymore (if installing a GTX330) because of the incomplete DAPS and the need for an FMS to tell the pilot this (and subsequent MAJOR mod).
Now im rambling .... but it winds me UP LOL
I have argued that the wording of TGL13 do not specify "Automated" and tried to get a mod approved stating it pilots responsibilty to selectr GND mode but got that squarely refused LOL
Cant even use a 429 output from a GNS series anymore (if installing a GTX330) because of the incomplete DAPS and the need for an FMS to tell the pilot this (and subsequent MAJOR mod).
Now im rambling .... but it winds me UP LOL
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 201
Likes: 9
From: Fareham
New AD
Funkwerk/Filser have just issued a service letter that paves the way for these units to be put back into full service again.
Reading the last paragraph of the letter it does appear to confirm that there are problems with the certification standard.
Presumably some EASA ADs to follow.
(I did experience some difficulty in downloading the letter and had to follow a link to here, right click and "save as" before opening the PDF file).
Reading the last paragraph of the letter it does appear to confirm that there are problems with the certification standard.
Presumably some EASA ADs to follow.
(I did experience some difficulty in downloading the letter and had to follow a link to here, right click and "save as" before opening the PDF file).
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,158
Likes: 62
From: 51.50N 1W (ish)
Since EuroroCom (the certification authority) agree that TRT800s are fully compliant with the published standard, I believe Funkwerk/Filsers's interpretation was reasonable.
I also understand the published standard is now revised, since in congested traffic, mixed Mode situations some responses are missed.
All due to the standard being based on computer simulation, which oddly enough is what the CAA's Mode S consultation proposals are based on.
Makes you think (unless you work for the CAA............)
I also understand the published standard is now revised, since in congested traffic, mixed Mode situations some responses are missed.
All due to the standard being based on computer simulation, which oddly enough is what the CAA's Mode S consultation proposals are based on.
Makes you think (unless you work for the CAA............)
