RT Question(s)
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RT Question(s)
Hello folks,
I have my practical RT exam scheduled for this coming tuesday and I am quite nervous about it. I am getting better, but RT procedures still fill me with a childlike dread and there are some areas I still find quite confusing.
I am currently working my way through CAP413 (not for the first time!) and I am likely to have a few questions, many of which may be quite trivial. I have created this thread for the purpose of asking these questions and also to solicit any general advice on the RT exam or even just general RT tips that anybody would like to pass on.
My first explicit question is, which types of ground station can I obtain an FIS from? I assume that APPROACH and INFOMATION units can provide this service, what about RADIO stations? What about RADAR? Will they simply upgrade me to a RIS 'for free' (assuming I am equiped with a transponder)?
I suspect there will be more questions for me to pose, which is why I have titled the thread in the way that I have.
Thank for any time and experience you can spare.
I have my practical RT exam scheduled for this coming tuesday and I am quite nervous about it. I am getting better, but RT procedures still fill me with a childlike dread and there are some areas I still find quite confusing.
I am currently working my way through CAP413 (not for the first time!) and I am likely to have a few questions, many of which may be quite trivial. I have created this thread for the purpose of asking these questions and also to solicit any general advice on the RT exam or even just general RT tips that anybody would like to pass on.
My first explicit question is, which types of ground station can I obtain an FIS from? I assume that APPROACH and INFOMATION units can provide this service, what about RADIO stations? What about RADAR? Will they simply upgrade me to a RIS 'for free' (assuming I am equiped with a transponder)?
I suspect there will be more questions for me to pose, which is why I have titled the thread in the way that I have.
Thank for any time and experience you can spare.
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Here is another one...
CAP413 talks about the requesting of both 'departure information' and 'taxi instructions'. The departure information request seems to be in lieu of a recorded ATIS message.
If departing from a aerodrome with a GROUND station and no ATIS, are these two requests always made as seperate calls? It seems that they would probably be made in quick succession if they were. Would you instead make a call like...
Incase it is not obvious, I am training at an airfield with a a/g station, so my knowledge of departure procedures from full ATC aerodromes is a bit lacking
CAP413 talks about the requesting of both 'departure information' and 'taxi instructions'. The departure information request seems to be in lieu of a recorded ATIS message.
If departing from a aerodrome with a GROUND station and no ATIS, are these two requests always made as seperate calls? It seems that they would probably be made in quick succession if they were. Would you instead make a call like...
Someville ground, G-ABCD request departure information and taxi instructions for VFR flight to elsewheretown.
Incase it is not obvious, I am training at an airfield with a a/g station, so my knowledge of departure procedures from full ATC aerodromes is a bit lacking
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If you are talking to ATC you will get a FIS - it's one of the basic services that you always get from ATC whatever the circumstances (the other is the Alerting Service). If you are talking to ATC you may also get other services, for example a Radar Information Service.
You will also get a FIS from a station using the callsign xxx Information - you'll also get an Alerting Service but that's all you will get.
In theory you often have to ask for a particular service from a RADAR unit although you may find you get offered something if it helps the controller. If you ask for a FIS that's all you'll probably get but what's available will depend on many factors such as how busy the controller is (and remember it's not always apparent from the R/T how busy he or she is!).
A RADIO station may sound very similar to a what is provided by an INFORMATION station but it isn't, and it isn't a FIS - don't worry too much about why, but in practice you may be wise to treat the info you get from a RADIO station with a bit of caution.
Some of the subtleties of what you get from different ground stations are rather complex bit I hope this helps - for the test you're not going to need to worry about this sort of stuff.
The basics are determined by the callsign of the ground station, if it's GROUND, TOWER, APPROACH, RADAR (there are a few others listed in CAP 413 as I'm sure you'll know) you're going to get ATC which includes FIS and Alerting. INFORMATION will give you a FIS and RADIO is really just a communications channel to let you talk to someone at the airfield - what you get is largely down to the person on the ground.
Just for the record, this is a 'UK answer'.
You will also get a FIS from a station using the callsign xxx Information - you'll also get an Alerting Service but that's all you will get.
In theory you often have to ask for a particular service from a RADAR unit although you may find you get offered something if it helps the controller. If you ask for a FIS that's all you'll probably get but what's available will depend on many factors such as how busy the controller is (and remember it's not always apparent from the R/T how busy he or she is!).
A RADIO station may sound very similar to a what is provided by an INFORMATION station but it isn't, and it isn't a FIS - don't worry too much about why, but in practice you may be wise to treat the info you get from a RADIO station with a bit of caution.
Some of the subtleties of what you get from different ground stations are rather complex bit I hope this helps - for the test you're not going to need to worry about this sort of stuff.
The basics are determined by the callsign of the ground station, if it's GROUND, TOWER, APPROACH, RADAR (there are a few others listed in CAP 413 as I'm sure you'll know) you're going to get ATC which includes FIS and Alerting. INFORMATION will give you a FIS and RADIO is really just a communications channel to let you talk to someone at the airfield - what you get is largely down to the person on the ground.
Just for the record, this is a 'UK answer'.
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To answer your second question, departure information will be the runway in use, QFE and or QNH and maybe the wind.
Taxi instructions are how to get to the runway from where you are.
You may want to get the departure information, have a think about what you want to do, maybe do some checks before you taxi - so just ask for the information. When you're ready to move ask for taxi instructions. Perhaps you have already copied the departure info when it was passed to someone else and you're ready to go - then ask for both at the same time. Your example is fine.
You mention that you are training from an airfield with an A/G radio station - technically the person on the radio cannot give you taxi instructions and you should simply transmit your intentions. In practice at this stage of your training I suggest you go with whatever your instructor teaches you and what is common practice at the field. But it might be useful to ask your instructor to give you a briefing on the differences between the different air traffic services.
Good luck on Tuesday.
Taxi instructions are how to get to the runway from where you are.
You may want to get the departure information, have a think about what you want to do, maybe do some checks before you taxi - so just ask for the information. When you're ready to move ask for taxi instructions. Perhaps you have already copied the departure info when it was passed to someone else and you're ready to go - then ask for both at the same time. Your example is fine.
You mention that you are training from an airfield with an A/G radio station - technically the person on the radio cannot give you taxi instructions and you should simply transmit your intentions. In practice at this stage of your training I suggest you go with whatever your instructor teaches you and what is common practice at the field. But it might be useful to ask your instructor to give you a briefing on the differences between the different air traffic services.
Good luck on Tuesday.
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Very interesting, thanks spitoon!
As part of my flying training I have 'requested an FIS' a few times. What is quite interesting from what you post is that there seems to be no real need to request it explicitally because if you establish two-way then you get it anyway. It seems that requesting and FIS is as much about what you dont need, in that, "Requst FIS" = "Not planning to enter the ATZ, let alone land, just want the basics please".
So based also on the information you have provided...
and
....would be complient calls but...
...would just make me look like a bit of an idiot 
This makes me wonder what I would do if I was flying in close proximity to a a/g manned airfield and wanted to know if anyone else was opperating in the area. Perhaps something like....
... would that be acceptable?
edit: Thanks for your answer to the second question also.
As part of my flying training I have 'requested an FIS' a few times. What is quite interesting from what you post is that there seems to be no real need to request it explicitally because if you establish two-way then you get it anyway. It seems that requesting and FIS is as much about what you dont need, in that, "Requst FIS" = "Not planning to enter the ATZ, let alone land, just want the basics please".
So based also on the information you have provided...
Someville ground, G-ABCD, request flight information service.
Someville information, G-ABCD, request flight information service.
Someville radio, G-ABCD, request flight information service.
This makes me wonder what I would do if I was flying in close proximity to a a/g manned airfield and wanted to know if anyone else was opperating in the area. Perhaps something like....
Someville radio, G-ABCD, request traffic information
edit: Thanks for your answer to the second question also.
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Someville ground, G-ABCD request departure information and taxi instructions for VFR flight to elsewheretown.
Someville tower, G-ABCD taxi.
As part of my flying training I have 'requested an FIS' a few times. What is quite interesting from what you post is that there seems to be no real need to request it explicitally because if you establish two-way then you get it anyway.
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I said the subtleties were messy!
In some cases the service you get will be obvious. GROUND is going to give you an ATC service which will include departure info (which technically is probably Flight Information - I'd have to get the books out to check) so you don't need to ask for FIS specifically.
The question really only arises once you are in the air. When you call up a ground station you have to tell them what you want (otherwise you just end up with an embarassing silence). If you're inbound you're going to tell them that and ask for joining instructions or zone entry elearance.
But if you're just passing by and don't want anything more than to have someone to call if you have a problem then asking for a FIS is probably the best thing to do.
On the final point about asking for traffic info, you example is again fine - and will work with ATC too - but it might help to mention where you are and where you are going so that the person on the other end can tell you about only that traffic that is in your area.
In some cases the service you get will be obvious. GROUND is going to give you an ATC service which will include departure info (which technically is probably Flight Information - I'd have to get the books out to check) so you don't need to ask for FIS specifically.
The question really only arises once you are in the air. When you call up a ground station you have to tell them what you want (otherwise you just end up with an embarassing silence). If you're inbound you're going to tell them that and ask for joining instructions or zone entry elearance.
But if you're just passing by and don't want anything more than to have someone to call if you have a problem then asking for a FIS is probably the best thing to do.
On the final point about asking for traffic info, you example is again fine - and will work with ATC too - but it might help to mention where you are and where you are going so that the person on the other end can tell you about only that traffic that is in your area.
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d.p. - I know you are going to flame me, but if you are asking the questions that you are asking (in the phraseology that you are asking them (ground service so no ATC?? wtf?)) then my suggestion for your RT exam is to postpone it and do some studying.
I don't mean to sound nasty - which I'm sure you will tell me I am - but you clearly do not understand what you are trying to do/achieve.
You're not ready for it.
I don't mean to sound nasty - which I'm sure you will tell me I am - but you clearly do not understand what you are trying to do/achieve.
You're not ready for it.
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Er.. am I missing something. Wasn`t all this covered in your R/T groundschool training... normally a two day course.
. I could certainly book a few hours with an instructor to go over this stuff. Infact, I have an actually lesson booked on Monday, perhaps I should stay on the ground and spend the time doing some RT ground school.
d.p. - I know you are going to flame me...
Nope, seriously, no flaming warrented. I am prepared to accept that I am not ready for it. I have an extended session with the RT examiner on Tuesday and part of that involves going through a practice route to test how prepared I am. I will let the examiner make the final determination. I can get through the practice route with relative ease though, its the finer points I am a bit fuzzy on.
ground service so no ATC?? wtf?
I appreicate the question was a little basic, but not entirely dumb I think. I have found that the relevant documents make a clear distinction between the different level of service that FISO and A/G operators provide on the ground, and make it clear that neither can offer 'instructions' when airbourne. So my question simply centres around the 'information' that each can provide.
To be honest, the whole concept of a FIS is a little fuzzy in my understanding. It establishes a 'connection' through which I can get traffic information and met information, but since I can ask for either of these things from an air/ground radio operator but cannot ask them for an FIS, it just like a formality.
What I am assuming is that with a FIS, you know that somebody cares about where you are and what you are doing in case you suddenly go quiet (alerting service). Is there more to it than this?
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What I am assuming is that with a FIS, you know that somebody cares about where you are and what you are doing in case you suddenly go quiet (alerting service). Is there more to it than this?
So as soon as you've established a Flight Information Service (or any service higher up the chain, like RIS or RAS) it is automatically your responsibility to sign off with that station as well.
Furthermore, once you have established a FIS you will almost always get the relevant QNH without asking. If you have given your route and altitude and the FIS has the capacity for it, the FIS officer will check it and warn you of any infringements you are maybe going to make. If the FIS officer knows your destination and then learns about something happening at your destination (runway closure due to accident perhaps) he will contact you and inform you about it. A while ago I was departing Duxford to cross the channel and the weather looked iffy. So I asked for the very latest METARS from London Info, which were duly presented. But without asking, half an hour later London offered to read me the METARs that were just issued then. And on that same flight London contacted me twice because other ATC units had me on radar and wanted to ask me a question. (And no, I did nothing wrong.) They can also open, close and modify flight plans for you and in some cases London has called airfields on behalf of planes in the air for PPR. Typically in diversion scenarios. They really can be quite useful.
All this doesn't happen if you don't establish a FIS.
But even without establishing a FIS you can ask this sort of information. You are then not establishing an Alerting Service with them so you don't have to sign off when changing frequencies. The station just gives you whatever you require (the local QNH, a QDM, the status of a danger area) and then forgets about you altogether.
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Gertrude, an interesting comment
I would ask what is 'the status of a danger area' if it isn't flight information?
Maybe the issue here is that in the UK because we offer ATC outside CAS and there are so many different services available we went for this concept of the pilot negotiating a service with the controller - i.e., pilot asks for X, controller agrees to provide it. We don't do this inside CAS - typically an aircraft gets airborne, pilot checks in with DEPARTURE/APPROACH and gets told 'identified, radar control'.
And then there's the business of what services you get when in communication with ATC. In the example above it's fairly clear, radar control = air traffic control. The pilot is also getting FIS and ALR despite the fact there's been no mention of them - hence my assertion that the moment you are in communication with an ATC unit you get FIS/ALR because they are the basic levels of ATS that are just always provided by any ATS. When a pilot on airways asks ATC for the wx somewhere downroute what he/she is asking for and getting is FIS (not ATC). If an aircraft force lands ATC will tell the emergency services where it landed - the pilot is then getting an ALR.
Your example of a practice PAN is especially interesting. Although you may be calling London Centre (and I'm not sure where D AND D is done from these days - not that it matters for this discussion), I think 121.500 is a special case and dedicated to ALR and so the issue of requesting or getting a FIS is not relevant.
No. You can establish two-way communication for other purposes. In particular you can call London Information for all sorts of things, such as requesting the status of a danger area, without either asking for or receiving flight information service.
Maybe the issue here is that in the UK because we offer ATC outside CAS and there are so many different services available we went for this concept of the pilot negotiating a service with the controller - i.e., pilot asks for X, controller agrees to provide it. We don't do this inside CAS - typically an aircraft gets airborne, pilot checks in with DEPARTURE/APPROACH and gets told 'identified, radar control'.
And then there's the business of what services you get when in communication with ATC. In the example above it's fairly clear, radar control = air traffic control. The pilot is also getting FIS and ALR despite the fact there's been no mention of them - hence my assertion that the moment you are in communication with an ATC unit you get FIS/ALR because they are the basic levels of ATS that are just always provided by any ATS. When a pilot on airways asks ATC for the wx somewhere downroute what he/she is asking for and getting is FIS (not ATC). If an aircraft force lands ATC will tell the emergency services where it landed - the pilot is then getting an ALR.
Your example of a practice PAN is especially interesting. Although you may be calling London Centre (and I'm not sure where D AND D is done from these days - not that it matters for this discussion), I think 121.500 is a special case and dedicated to ALR and so the issue of requesting or getting a FIS is not relevant.
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Gertrude, an interesting comment
I would ask what is 'the status of a danger area' if it isn't flight information?
No. You can establish two-way communication for other purposes. In particular you can call London Information for all sorts of things, such as requesting the status of a danger area, without either asking for or receiving flight information service.
Say you're flying around East Anglia, talking to nobody (it's the weekend so there's no LARS, and anyway it's a nice day so you don't need it). You want to know whether D207 is active because your passengers decide they'd like you to fly out over the Wash. Having checked the legend of your chart in advance you happen to know that the DAAIS for D207 is provided by London Information (some are, some aren't, see other thread). You call:
"London Information, G-ABCD, request danger area activity information for delta 207"
"G-ABCD, delta 207 is cold"
"G-ABCD thank you and good day"
Then you go back to talking to nobody (possibly with London Information tuned in and the volume turned down, if you like). No flight information service established.
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Whom and why!
May I correct some misconceptions on this thread.
An aerodrome 'Ground' station will not provide a FIS for that is not their purpose.
An Aerodrome Flight Information Service may not provide a service to aircraft other than those operating or who intend to operate within an ATZ. The service is confined to operations within the ATZ and is never a control.
An Air Ground station must not provide a service and the station is not always required to be manned. It is simply a communication device. They are not empowered to provide traffic whereabouts.
A Flight Information Service (such as the London flight Information Service) will provide a FIS when requested, it should never be presumed.
The LARS will provide; FIS, RIS or RAS as appropiate when specifically requested but only subject to controller workload and in the case of RAS only when the flight is being undertaken in accordance with IFR. It is the pilots responsibilty to request the appropiate service they require and the controller will confirm the specific service being provided. Never presume!
In ALL cases it is required for the pilot to state clearly what service they require. The controller may of course offer a particular service but that must be formally agreed with the pilot.
Only those units promulgated to provide a service are obliged to do so and they are paid to do so. It is of course common for other ATC units to provide a service when requested but they must not be relied upon and they remain unpaid for doing so. Being given 'information' does not imply an 'Information Service'!
70% of the RT test is RT planning. You will be given a list of available radio stations from which YOU select the appropiate unit for each part of the flight. You may only contact a unit that promulgates or has within its structure the obligation to provide a particular service.
An aerodrome 'Ground' station will not provide a FIS for that is not their purpose.
An Aerodrome Flight Information Service may not provide a service to aircraft other than those operating or who intend to operate within an ATZ. The service is confined to operations within the ATZ and is never a control.
An Air Ground station must not provide a service and the station is not always required to be manned. It is simply a communication device. They are not empowered to provide traffic whereabouts.
A Flight Information Service (such as the London flight Information Service) will provide a FIS when requested, it should never be presumed.
The LARS will provide; FIS, RIS or RAS as appropiate when specifically requested but only subject to controller workload and in the case of RAS only when the flight is being undertaken in accordance with IFR. It is the pilots responsibilty to request the appropiate service they require and the controller will confirm the specific service being provided. Never presume!
In ALL cases it is required for the pilot to state clearly what service they require. The controller may of course offer a particular service but that must be formally agreed with the pilot.
Only those units promulgated to provide a service are obliged to do so and they are paid to do so. It is of course common for other ATC units to provide a service when requested but they must not be relied upon and they remain unpaid for doing so. Being given 'information' does not imply an 'Information Service'!
70% of the RT test is RT planning. You will be given a list of available radio stations from which YOU select the appropiate unit for each part of the flight. You may only contact a unit that promulgates or has within its structure the obligation to provide a particular service.
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Thanks everybody!
As is usually the case, you ask a question and in reading the responses you learn a few other things that you didn't even realise that you didn't know.
I think I will probably take that time with my instructor on monday and then go ahead with the test on tuesday. I will be back to let you know how I get on.
Thanks again.
As is usually the case, you ask a question and in reading the responses you learn a few other things that you didn't even realise that you didn't know.
I think I will probably take that time with my instructor on monday and then go ahead with the test on tuesday. I will be back to let you know how I get on.
Thanks again.
Honestly digital.poet, a student almost ready for their RT exam who doesn't know exactly what a "Flight Information Service" means??
Actually, the CAA realised some time ago that they didn't really know exactly what a "Flight Information Service" means, hence many hundreds of thousands of pounds spent on a review of air traffic services outside controlled airspace. ;-)
Your questions show a considerable depth of understanding of the subject matter. You should have no trouble with an exam.
Actually, the CAA realised some time ago that they didn't really know exactly what a "Flight Information Service" means, hence many hundreds of thousands of pounds spent on a review of air traffic services outside controlled airspace. ;-)
Your questions show a considerable depth of understanding of the subject matter. You should have no trouble with an exam.
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DP,
I think you have done well to post your questions here and shows the right sort of attitude to become a pilot.
Hopefully other's comments here have been a help. Getting practice on the radio is hard, especially when you are not flying in and out of controlled airspace or using radar services. It is debateable whether it is better done in the air or on the ground. I personnaly believe it is best done for real.
Chat with your instructor about it, do the mock test and see how you get on. The important thing to remember is to think before you push the button and use things like TRPACER (ask your instructor). Relax and try to enjoy. There isn't that much you need to say.
And in case it all sounds daunting, and everyone else seems to know far more about it than you do, it will be all changed in March next year, so we will all be having to learn it all over again.
I think you have done well to post your questions here and shows the right sort of attitude to become a pilot.
Hopefully other's comments here have been a help. Getting practice on the radio is hard, especially when you are not flying in and out of controlled airspace or using radar services. It is debateable whether it is better done in the air or on the ground. I personnaly believe it is best done for real.
Chat with your instructor about it, do the mock test and see how you get on. The important thing to remember is to think before you push the button and use things like TRPACER (ask your instructor). Relax and try to enjoy. There isn't that much you need to say.
And in case it all sounds daunting, and everyone else seems to know far more about it than you do, it will be all changed in March next year, so we will all be having to learn it all over again.
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Alot of it is confidence and working out what you are going to say before pressing the transmit button. Remember - ATC are there to help YOU, so ask for what you want!
Well done for doing such good prep before your test.
And yes, alot of it IS confusing! I've been flying for years, I fly commercially and yet even I couldn't tell you exactly what services FIS RAS or RIS can provide - I am sure there are lots that I don't know about.
Good luck for Tuesday!
Well done for doing such good prep before your test.
And yes, alot of it IS confusing! I've been flying for years, I fly commercially and yet even I couldn't tell you exactly what services FIS RAS or RIS can provide - I am sure there are lots that I don't know about.
Good luck for Tuesday!
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There is a lot of good information on here so I'm not going to try and reconfirm it !
Things I learnt was on a 2 day training course is worth it's weight in gold.
I did mine with a guy called Malcolm Dobson, he's ex ATC like 40 years! and does training at Barton and Leeds. I went from a oo arrr umm to feeling like RT is just something I've been doing all my life.
The RT Practical is not really that close to real life, it does the basic calls but misses all the real stuff like ATC squeezing you in between two airbuses, busy cat D zone exit clearances, odd holding instructions etc
Bits I'd add are:
Always write everything down ATC say (I use a form of short hand)
If poss ask for a RIS rather than a FIS
If your flying near an airfield an it has a frequency give them a call anyway just to let them know you are there.
If it's a long call your giving, write a crib of the items your going to say.
If your making a call to get some info, listen out on channel for someone else to ask and nick the bits that are general, like QNH.
At some airports mainly big busy ones, you can get taxi instructions, a zone exit clearance, ie direction out of the CTR i.e. via congelton low level not above 1500ft, and also take off ie, after take off early right hand turn to the south tracking to woodford.
Best plan on these is print off the ee routes and vrp's from the a/p AIP.
and lastly talk to them as human, ye there are specific phrases but if you don't understand just say so, rather loose face than wilco to something you didn't get.
And on the test, you can go at your own pace, don't feel rushed in to making the next call, prep yourself on paper before you push the button.
especial the mayday and phacer calls.
The number one best thing you can do in prep for the test is find someone to ask as the ATC and role play it. also having an atc radio to listen to is good use.
lol and remember all you learn now will be useless in 2009 !, no more FIR RIS RAS !
Best of luck Ian
Things I learnt was on a 2 day training course is worth it's weight in gold.
I did mine with a guy called Malcolm Dobson, he's ex ATC like 40 years! and does training at Barton and Leeds. I went from a oo arrr umm to feeling like RT is just something I've been doing all my life.
The RT Practical is not really that close to real life, it does the basic calls but misses all the real stuff like ATC squeezing you in between two airbuses, busy cat D zone exit clearances, odd holding instructions etc
Bits I'd add are:
Always write everything down ATC say (I use a form of short hand)
If poss ask for a RIS rather than a FIS
If your flying near an airfield an it has a frequency give them a call anyway just to let them know you are there.
If it's a long call your giving, write a crib of the items your going to say.
If your making a call to get some info, listen out on channel for someone else to ask and nick the bits that are general, like QNH.
At some airports mainly big busy ones, you can get taxi instructions, a zone exit clearance, ie direction out of the CTR i.e. via congelton low level not above 1500ft, and also take off ie, after take off early right hand turn to the south tracking to woodford.
Best plan on these is print off the ee routes and vrp's from the a/p AIP.
and lastly talk to them as human, ye there are specific phrases but if you don't understand just say so, rather loose face than wilco to something you didn't get.
And on the test, you can go at your own pace, don't feel rushed in to making the next call, prep yourself on paper before you push the button.
especial the mayday and phacer calls.
The number one best thing you can do in prep for the test is find someone to ask as the ATC and role play it. also having an atc radio to listen to is good use.
lol and remember all you learn now will be useless in 2009 !, no more FIR RIS RAS !
Best of luck Ian