RT Question(s)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: notts
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be or not to be?
IO540
If there wasn't a need for services such as FIS then they wouldn't exist. They do exist because they are required and that is why they are valuable.
Navigation skills should be obvious I agree. However many factors lead to infringements. The occasional pilot is particularly vulnerable to overload, however so are many more experienced and professional pilots. It would not be correct to say that professionals do not screw up but only PPL fools do. You shouldn't take my remarks to mean only the PPLs who are members of my club are the ones that have got it wrong.
For the single crew pilot who is; pilot, 1st officer, navigator, radio operator and flight engineer the assistance from a FIS is worth every penny. As I said previously the RADAR facility is only one part of the job.
Infringments happen not because of bad planning necessarily but often as not owing to unforseen circumstances (perhaps bad planning) and /or overload. At these times the FIS will be a second unreplacable member of the crew.
If there wasn't a need for services such as FIS then they wouldn't exist. They do exist because they are required and that is why they are valuable.
Navigation skills should be obvious I agree. However many factors lead to infringements. The occasional pilot is particularly vulnerable to overload, however so are many more experienced and professional pilots. It would not be correct to say that professionals do not screw up but only PPL fools do. You shouldn't take my remarks to mean only the PPLs who are members of my club are the ones that have got it wrong.
For the single crew pilot who is; pilot, 1st officer, navigator, radio operator and flight engineer the assistance from a FIS is worth every penny. As I said previously the RADAR facility is only one part of the job.
Infringments happen not because of bad planning necessarily but often as not owing to unforseen circumstances (perhaps bad planning) and /or overload. At these times the FIS will be a second unreplacable member of the crew.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Bisley
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540 - "The way to avoid a CAS bust is to navigate accurately, not by talking to London Info who have no idea where you are."
Yes we do, and I can assure you that we stop a large number of CAS / DA infringements and also help reduce the severity of many others who do.
I think a visit to Swanwick to see how ATC works would moderate your somewhat jaundiced view of our service.
Yes we do, and I can assure you that we stop a large number of CAS / DA infringements and also help reduce the severity of many others who do.
I think a visit to Swanwick to see how ATC works would moderate your somewhat jaundiced view of our service.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If there wasn't a need for services such as FIS then they wouldn't exist. They do exist because they are required and that is why they are valuable.
They are indeed valuable (for the specific things I mentioned earlier) but not for aiding your own navigation.
I can assure you that we stop a large number of CAS / DA infringements and also help reduce the severity of many others who do.
I leave base going south I have to negotiate Southend, so why not talk to them and get a FIS so they know where I am and they can let me know about other traffic?
Also thanks to talking to them I avoided my first CAS infringement
Also thanks to talking to them I avoided my first CAS infringement
) especially given he has VDF, that a certain blip (they have no SSR feed so cannot see the transponder codes) is almost certainly you. And if he can see you are about to bust, he can call you up and ask you to check your position (without, of course, suggesting openly on the radio that he can see you). I call up Southend myself every time I go that way - because they have radar.But I don't call up London Info because they cannot see me, and they ask for estimates to waypoints which I can give them easily enough (because they are programmed in the GPS) but I don't see the value of this to me or anybody else.
London Info is a great service and I do use it but I cannot see the value for navigation. If they had radar it would be a completely different proposition.
What irritates me is the stupid officialdom and job demarcation which prevent ATCOs everywhere getting a radar feed. Technically it's a piece of cake.
When we get ADS-B this stupid restrictive practice will be moot anyway because every plane spotter will have his own private radar, for a few hundred quid and a laptop, and as accurate as the GPS in each plane.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I took an FIS from London Information a couple of weeks ago and got too close to Stansted's air space. London called me and said that "they" (presume Essex Radar) had "been on the phone" and asked me to check my navigation.
If I'd not been receiving the FIS, I wouldn't have received the warning, which appears to have been completely within the rules as it was (apparently) Essex Radar that had interpreted and acted upon the radar trace.
It proved the value of the FIS to me. Even professional pilots with big aeroplanes full of computers land their aircraft at the wrong airports, so with the best will in the world, the amateur like me is going to make mistakes.
Thank you London Information & Essex Radar.
If I'd not been receiving the FIS, I wouldn't have received the warning, which appears to have been completely within the rules as it was (apparently) Essex Radar that had interpreted and acted upon the radar trace.
It proved the value of the FIS to me. Even professional pilots with big aeroplanes full of computers land their aircraft at the wrong airports, so with the best will in the world, the amateur like me is going to make mistakes.
Thank you London Information & Essex Radar.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Bisley
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jollyrog
That incident shows just how useful our 1177 is for the owners of CAS.
A quick telephone call to us, a couple of r/t exchanges and potential incident averted.
Whereas if they see a 7000 aproaching their CAS all they can do is watch...........................and hope!
That incident shows just how useful our 1177 is for the owners of CAS.
A quick telephone call to us, a couple of r/t exchanges and potential incident averted.
Whereas if they see a 7000 aproaching their CAS all they can do is watch...........................and hope!
Last edited by SwanFIS; 17th Jul 2008 at 15:09.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So DP - you can see that there seems to be some ambiguity to the FIS. Welcome to aviation!
IO540
Maybe they do have their own radar, but they don't use it to avoid other non participating traffic. There are plenty of airprox's and mid airs that show they don't. (I'm thinking of Jaguar and gliders on the Welsh Borders, a 152 and Tornado near Retford, Tornado and Super Puma over the North Sea, Tornado and Jet Ranger in the Lakes....). The NOTAMs are there to keep us out so that they can play without(?) fear of meeting GA traffic.
IO540
There is traffic potentially anywhere, and the UK is fairly busy GA-wise. This is why I find it bizzare issuing notams on military traffic in such and such area - they can be anywhere anyway! And they can and do look after themselves. There is no meaningful avoidance which a GA plane can do against a 500kt jet - especially as a target on a genuine collision course will be a stationary point in the sky and will not be seen until too late. The jet has his own radar.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The NOTAMs are there to keep us out so that they can play without(?) fear of meeting GA traffic.
If one was to avoid any area where there is a traffic warning, that would close a lot of Class G. As well as all the AIAAs.
IMHO it makes more sense to ignore these warnings but to get a radar service from somebody.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes TRAs are another way of doing it and perhaps that is what the military pilots would want to have, but airspace constraints mean they have to make do with a NOTAM instead.
In my experience AAIAs (I'm thinking of the Vale of York and areas around Lincolnshire) have plenty of transiting and general handling military traffic, but not so much high energy manoeverings. IE they can generally comply with the rules of the air. The NOTAM'd airspace seems to always end with "may not be able to comply with rules of the air". Which could mean all sorts. By that token, a radar service is not much use since the controller may not be talking to the military traffic and therefore have no idea what they are about to do. Even if they are talking to them, the things move so fast the controller is not likely to have time to sort out deconfliction. I have been in the scenario of being at 1500' being warned of military traffic indicating FL460 (yes I do mean 46 THOUSAND feet) in my x o'clock range x miles. And that is a real pain when you are receiving a RAS, are carrying minimum fuel and are in IMC.
I really wish the military fast jets had some form of TCAS, but they don't. They are the single most scarey thing about flying in certain parts of this country.
In my experience AAIAs (I'm thinking of the Vale of York and areas around Lincolnshire) have plenty of transiting and general handling military traffic, but not so much high energy manoeverings. IE they can generally comply with the rules of the air. The NOTAM'd airspace seems to always end with "may not be able to comply with rules of the air". Which could mean all sorts. By that token, a radar service is not much use since the controller may not be talking to the military traffic and therefore have no idea what they are about to do. Even if they are talking to them, the things move so fast the controller is not likely to have time to sort out deconfliction. I have been in the scenario of being at 1500' being warned of military traffic indicating FL460 (yes I do mean 46 THOUSAND feet) in my x o'clock range x miles. And that is a real pain when you are receiving a RAS, are carrying minimum fuel and are in IMC.
I really wish the military fast jets had some form of TCAS, but they don't. They are the single most scarey thing about flying in certain parts of this country.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Kent UK
Age: 42
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello folks, making a further post for 2 reasons...
A) I wanted to resurrect my flagship thread!
B) Wanted to let you know that I passed and am now a FRTOL holder (in principal, will apply for the actual license with the PPL).
I can't thank you guys enough for all your help. Of all the exams and tests, and excluding the GST, this was the one that scared me the most. To hear my examiner say... "Not only did you pass, but it was a *good* pass" was music to my ears!!
Thanks again.
A) I wanted to resurrect my flagship thread!
B) Wanted to let you know that I passed and am now a FRTOL holder (in principal, will apply for the actual license with the PPL).
I can't thank you guys enough for all your help. Of all the exams and tests, and excluding the GST, this was the one that scared me the most. To hear my examiner say... "Not only did you pass, but it was a *good* pass" was music to my ears!!
Thanks again.
Last edited by digital.poet; 21st Jul 2008 at 21:37.
