Newcomer from North England Seeks Advice on PPL Schools (and some other stuff!)

[belleh]

Hi everyone.

I'm new here, so I'll just give a quick bit of background information. I'm currently 21 (about to turn 22 actually), and will be entering my final year of BSc Computer Science at university in a couple of months. I've been interested in becoming a pilot for a long time, pretty much since I got my first computer and became obsessed with Flight Sim! Despite this, I've never actually even had a lesson (hell, until the age of 18 I'd never even been a passenger on a plane!). Well, given I'm beginning to see the end of the horizon as far as university is concerned, I've done a lot of research over the last few months (more than I care to remember, I'm sitting up at 3.45am posting this!) into what it takes to become a commercial airline pilot. As you're no doubt all aware, the short answer is 'a lot'.

So, that just about brings you up to speed as to where I'm at. Now obviously the first thing to do (as far as I'm concerned), is to get some flying experience. I think that if I get my PPL, my the end of that, I'd be in a much better position to decide if it's something I'd like to do as a career, or just for recreation, and at that point act accordingly. Well, I'm not getting any younger, so any advice where this is concerned would be useful, and I plan to get going within a year or so.

If I budget £10,000, from what I've seen that should be enough to get a PPL (maybe even with some towards extra ratings), correct? My local airport is the Durham Tees Valley one in Northern England. I've come across two flying schools so far; http://www.clevelandflying.com/ and http://www.stgeorgeflighttraining.co.uk/

Does anyone have any experience (good or bad) with either of these, or could recommend others? Any tips? (I've read a lot, but advice is always appreciated!). It's also vaguely possible for me to use a school based in the Midlands, because my parents live in Birmingham, but I do usually live in Teesside.

Hopefully once I get my PPL under my belt, I can decide if I want to progress or just enjoy it recreationally.

Many thanks in advance.

[BackPacker]

belleh, it sounds a tad expensive to invest something like 10.000 pounds into a PPL just to see if you like flying for the airlines.

First, it is much cheaper to get to know a few airline pilots and chat to them, ask them what their typical day looks like, what their career prospects are, what they find most satisfying/rewarding in their work and what they hate about their jobs.

Second, the world of PPL style flying is far, far removed from the world of ATPL-style flying. Yes, the laws of aerodynamics are the same and we sometimes share the same airspace and airports, but that's about all there is to compare.

A PPL pilot, in a lot of cases, is an actual pilot. He or she is hand flying at relatively low altitude, in the weather, navigating by relatively simple means (lots of GA aircraft do not have an autopilot coupled with GPS, let alone an FMS) with just one or two passengers on board, flying for fun at convenient times, not really to a schedule. Flight preparation, refueling, catering (sandwiches and a thermos) are all things that you do yourself.

Airline pilots are more flight managers than anything else. They have to get up at ungodly hours to operate a flight to a schedule that's set with a precision of mere minutes. The taxying and take-off is done by hand but as soon as practically possible, the autopilot takes over, is coupled to the Flight Management System, and takes the aircraft to an altitude far above the weather. The flight itself is spent checking systems, communicating with ATC, reprogramming the FMS and reading books/magazines/papers/whatever. I've even heard of airline pilots who are using the FMS to play games with each other! On the ground, the pilots are helped by a professional crew of refuelers, caterers, dispatchers, cleaners and so forth, but all that work needs to be checked and corrected as necessary. This is the most hectic period of the flight - even assuming everything goes according to plan.

So. If an airline career is something that you think you want, get as much knowledge in as you can. Talk to schools, talk to pilots. Get a class 1 medical, get a loan and go for it. You'll get your PPL as part of your training anyway. But don't expect that a PPL will give you great insight into what an airline career is about.

(Disclaimer: I'm a GA pilot with no personal experience of commercial operations, but I've heard a lot about them.)

[r44flyer]

I would agree with what BackPacker has said. The PPL training won't tell you anything about what it's like to be an airline pilot, other than getting you closer to the smell of the jet fumes, and perhaps confirming that you don't get airsick. The two are far removed from each other.

I would doubt very much you will be able to actually arrange a 'day-in-the-life' flight with an airline, as security regs mean no one gets into the flight deck who isn't flight crew. So, talking to airline pilots is your best bet. The only other thing I can think of is Atlantic Airlines at Coventry. They are a smaller outfit, largely cargo, so might be able to offer you more of an experience than a larger passenger airline. Might be worth a letter to the operations manager.

£10,000 is an overpriced PPL, in my opinion.

One word about Cleveland, they operate the flight training for Aviation Technology students at Leeds University, so they are very busy most times. It would be worth finding out how this affects availability for non-student customers.

[Rightbase]

Go for it

Two promising signs that you won't regret it:

I've been interested in becoming a pilot for a long time,
.........
Hopefully once I get my PPL under my belt, I can decide if I want to progress or just enjoy it recreationally.

and

If I budget £10,000, from what I've seen that should be enough to get a PPL ...

If you don't like it you can stop at any time. If you decide you would rather fly recreationally you will be enjoying it, and your policy of budgetting safely - with that little bit extra - suggests you have the right attitude to stay alive.

I left it much too long before the get-up-and-go kicked in. All those wasted years....

Choose a good school and go for it.

[tonker]

I had a similiar amount lbeit 9 years ago. Spent 5 k learning in the US with a night rating and a load of hours, and the rest i spent on hour building in the UK for my CPL.

I made sure that my UK hours were "designed" for me by soemone in the know, so as to maintain discipline and gain the right UK experience(LARS etc)

Either way i think 10k is too much, but the schools in Durham i have heard are good.

Good luck(and enjoy yourself)

[Aviator Gray]

Same Boat as You

I'm in almost the same boat as you, but I'm 14.
I've been thinking about going with St George Flight Training School for the Starter Package, but then moving to a flying school nearer me at Newcastle Airport, Northumbria Flying School.

I can afford it (I get a lot and have saved a lot from my paper-round!) and am looking forward to booking my test flight in the Summer Holidays and then hopefully going to Northumbria Flying School every couple of months, which should mean a PPL before I'm 19 Or earlier if I spend virtually all my money on it!

- Andy.

[papa oscar]

Belleh, drop me a PM with your contact details.
I fly from DTVA and would be willing to meet up to discuss your options.
There are a number of things you'll need to know about both flying schools at DTVA.

Spare seats are normally available when we go off for a jolly in our aircraft.

[NinjaBill]

If you are 14, then why not try joining Air Cadets, it's certainly a lot cheaper then trying to learn to fly only using the money from your paper round.

[Aviator Gray]

I'm already in Air Cadets, but you don't learn to fly towards your PPL. I've been flying twice for half an hour each in a Grob Tutor.

[civil aviation]

Get Written Quotes

A persistent PPL problem at many Flight Training Organisations is that many people end-up spending a lot more than they were led to believe and not finishing as quickly as they were promised or imagined. The stereotypical excuses/reasons are: they say you need more training, weather repeatedly unsuitable for student pilot, instructor unavailable, aircraft unserviceable or allocated to someone with more clout.The instructor/aircraft availability problem is typical of 'club' and marginal FTO's but can occur at bigger FTO's.
Not up-to-date with current costs but you might now well end up spending £10k or more ! before you get a JAA PPL in the UK. As Tonker suggests, the cheaper and usually much quicker alternative is the (same JAA) PPL in the USA where there are a small number of JAA authorised FTO's which specialise in 3 or 4 week JAA PPL courses. As a student, you ought to have time available for that option.
If you went to Florida, you might get away with under £5k incl. your flight-ask Orlando Flight Training and Ormond Beach Aviation for written quotes.

BTW , advice to get written quotes, on everything applies to anywhere you're considering (even your local 'club'). AVOID ANYWHERE WHICH WILL NOT ANSWER ,OR PUT EVERYTHING, IN WRITING !
Other obvious questions are- does the price quoted include & , if not, how much for:
Landing fees?
Fuel supplements ?
Exam fees ?
Night rating?
Books, headset ?

Another suggestion is get a 'medical' (i.e. don't assume you're fit to fly).
Any FTO including those in the USA will tell you where to go.

[FullyFlapped]

Go to Fishburn or somewhere similar - the shortest uncontrolled grass field you can find with a club/school - and learn to fly properly. The only advantage of learning at a regional like DTV is talking to ATC and mixing it up with bigger traffic (which normally means doing orbits at huge expense for no particular reason), and these are the easier skills to pick up IMHO.

Anyone can land on a mile of concrete : something a little more challenging forces you to hone your skills and actually think about what you're doing.

Just my 10 cents worth, as someone who learnt at a regional !

[belleh]

Many many thanks to all of you. You've each given me a lot of food for thought, lead me to consider certain things that hadn't even crossed my mind previously and have been most helpful. I wont reply individually because of the overwhelming response, but suffice to say, I've found everything everyone has said very useful.

Since I made this first post, I am much much more informed. Having done many hours of reading (late into the night and early morning!), I now have a much better idea of the state of the industry, both commercially and recreationally. As such, I now have a much better plan of attack than "One day I'd like to be...", and if you're interested, it's outlined a few posts into this thread.

Once again, my thanks to everyone, and hopefully see a few of you in some local airfields in a years time or so for some lunch!

[papa oscar]

Originally Posted by FullyFlapped

Go to Fishburn or somewhere similar - the shortest uncontrolled grass field you can find with a club/school - and learn to fly properly. The only advantage of learning at a regional like DTV is talking to ATC and mixing it up with bigger traffic (which normally means doing orbits at huge expense for no particular reason), and these are the easier skills to pick up IMHO.

Anyone can land on a mile of concrete : something a little more challenging forces you to hone your skills and actually think about what you're doing.

Just my 10 cents worth, as someone who learnt at a regional !

You cannot learn to fly for a PPL(A) licence from an unlicensed airfield, so that Fishburn, Peterlee and Bagby out of the window although Bagby does have an agreement with a local licensed strip for training.

If you are asked to carry out orbits you can guarantee it's for a good reason. Commercial traffic who pay a lot more money than small private aircraft are priority over us puddle jumpers.

Once you have passed your test, I agree with the grass strip thing, it makes you concentrate a lot more on your approach and landing techniques.

[NinjaBill]

I'm already in Air Cadets, but you don't learn to fly towards your PPL. I've been flying twice for half an hour each in a Grob Tutor.

You need to read up on the gliding and flying scholarships available to those in Air Cadets. Just because you don't know about them, doesn't mean they aren't there

I may have had one or two (ish) hours paid for by HMG via air cadets