Low Cloud
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Low Cloud
How low can you go? Avoiding the clag would be hard most days if we stick to the VFR flight rules so what should we do for avoiding cloud on those days when cloud base is 1000ft or less, stay in the hangar and talk it through or just jump in and go low level?
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I always thought that if the birds are walking then I will stay on the ground. I`ll have a look at the books tonight, must admit I hadn`t thought about it before and just assumed that as long as I stayed below cloud base I`d be ok.
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You must remain 500 ft clear of cloud unless on a special VFR clearance or have an IMC rating. You must also respect rule 5 (500ft from structures etc)
Stay in the hangar. Remember when the ground goes up the cloud doesn't.
DO
Stay in the hangar. Remember when the ground goes up the cloud doesn't.
DO
stocker,
If you do your flying in Scotland I am amazed that you "hadn`t thought about it before and just assumed that as long as I stayed below cloud base I`d be ok.".
Personally, unless I'm just doing circuits, I have a 1500' absolute limit, (or 1000' above the highest ground anywhere near my flightpath). Anything less and you stand a good chance of flying too low over a built up area or within 500' of property, people etc.
If you do your flying in Scotland I am amazed that you "hadn`t thought about it before and just assumed that as long as I stayed below cloud base I`d be ok.".
Personally, unless I'm just doing circuits, I have a 1500' absolute limit, (or 1000' above the highest ground anywhere near my flightpath). Anything less and you stand a good chance of flying too low over a built up area or within 500' of property, people etc.
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You must remain 500 ft clear of cloud unless on a special VFR clearance or have an IMC rating
Personally, I would not fly lower than about 700ft - the 500ft above people etc rule is the problem and (if you get reported) that is what will get you.
One needs to be sure of where one is when doing that, because a gap of 700ft between cloud and terrain is awfully small and could close up, and then you are stuffed. Quite a lot of people get killed doing that.
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Question answered, saves me looking tonight.
I remember being sent out to practice bad weather circuits as a student with a cloudbase of about 800ft, a bit tricky to stick to the rules there. I also remember making the mistake of doing the circuits at the normal speeds and becoming overwhelmed quite quickly, it was nice to get back on terrafirma.
Good advice DO, stay inside....
Pulse....
to be totally honest I had thought about it before and like many others found flying in Scotland meant it would be wise to do an IMC but alas I dont always remember everything I learned.
I remember being sent out to practice bad weather circuits as a student with a cloudbase of about 800ft, a bit tricky to stick to the rules there. I also remember making the mistake of doing the circuits at the normal speeds and becoming overwhelmed quite quickly, it was nice to get back on terrafirma.
Good advice DO, stay inside....
Pulse....
to be totally honest I had thought about it before and like many others found flying in Scotland meant it would be wise to do an IMC but alas I dont always remember everything I learned.
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Clear as mud.....
ok I got the bit about the 500ft rule both cloud and people so lets just say for example I am operating out of a farm strip and I own all the land around the circuit pattern, can I do a circuit at 100ft if the cloud base is at 600ft?
And does that mean that at any other airfield/port that I would need at least 1000ft base plus an allowance for building heights in the circuit?
Im confused.....
ok I got the bit about the 500ft rule both cloud and people so lets just say for example I am operating out of a farm strip and I own all the land around the circuit pattern, can I do a circuit at 100ft if the cloud base is at 600ft?
And does that mean that at any other airfield/port that I would need at least 1000ft base plus an allowance for building heights in the circuit?
Im confused.....
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Below three thousand feet the VFR rules state that you should remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. There are no cloud separation rules below three thousand feet. The 500 feet from persons, vessels, vehicles or structures, is absolute except in the case of towns, cities, villages, settlements or gatherings of more than 1000 people, where it is 1000 feet
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The testing of this question is probably the single largest cause of fatal accidents.
Assuming you are VFR, a PPL, less then 140 kts in an aeroplane, the UK law says you could operate over the sea or a known empty field at a ceiling of less than 100 ft and viz of 3 km. You are VFR (Clear of Cloud and 1.5 km viz), You meet your PPL viz limit (3kms), and you are more than 500 ft from people or structure. What is legal is not necessarily safe and this would certainly fall into the very unsafe camp.
Pulse1's 'greater of 1500 ft or 1000 feet above highest terrain nearby' is a reasonable limit for a flight away from the local area.
Assuming you are VFR, a PPL, less then 140 kts in an aeroplane, the UK law says you could operate over the sea or a known empty field at a ceiling of less than 100 ft and viz of 3 km. You are VFR (Clear of Cloud and 1.5 km viz), You meet your PPL viz limit (3kms), and you are more than 500 ft from people or structure. What is legal is not necessarily safe and this would certainly fall into the very unsafe camp.
Pulse1's 'greater of 1500 ft or 1000 feet above highest terrain nearby' is a reasonable limit for a flight away from the local area.
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Taking into account that any obstacles below 300' doesn't appear on the chart, min needs to be 800' agl (watch for spot heights) and dog leg if you need to.
Look at the wind direction, if it is vearing as you continue, is will get worse - probably flying into a front.
Also, wind from the left won't be too good either.
Look at the wind direction, if it is vearing as you continue, is will get worse - probably flying into a front.
Also, wind from the left won't be too good either.
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meiklepap/IO540
Got the bit about 500ft clear of cloud wrong, apologies. However flying in Alba outside the circuit with 1000ft cloudbase is a no no. Guaranteed the weather 2 miles in some direction will be worse.
Got the bit about 500ft clear of cloud wrong, apologies. However flying in Alba outside the circuit with 1000ft cloudbase is a no no. Guaranteed the weather 2 miles in some direction will be worse.
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It is legal to fly along at 3000 ft, at <140kn above a broken layer of cloud provided you can see at least one blade of grass. You could be 1 foot under a solid overcast. Obviously this would not be sensible, as you would have no chance to exercise see and avoid.
The VFR minima allow flight in some very unpleasant conditions. It is up to the PIC to decide if his expertise and his aircraft equipment are up to the job on any given day. I often find that with a low scattered cloud base it is much safer to get above it and fly in the smooth air with plenty of margin above minimum safe, this can often be done VFR. The risk in this is the cloud may thicken and you need to be ready to get down through a hole if need be.
Rod1
The VFR minima allow flight in some very unpleasant conditions. It is up to the PIC to decide if his expertise and his aircraft equipment are up to the job on any given day. I often find that with a low scattered cloud base it is much safer to get above it and fly in the smooth air with plenty of margin above minimum safe, this can often be done VFR. The risk in this is the cloud may thicken and you need to be ready to get down through a hole if need be.
Rod1
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Depends on circumstances,
As stated, under 3000' you just have to be clear of cloud and observe the 500' rule. my airstrip is three miles from the coast with easy landmarks and no hills nearby. I've taken off from elsewhere in the past with very low cloud, knowing that I can fly along the coast at 500' or less and turn in to land with no problems. It helps that as an ex glider pilot, in a very slow STOL type I'd be happy to land in any available space if things deteriorated. In something faster and less STOL I'd simply revise my minima.
SS
As stated, under 3000' you just have to be clear of cloud and observe the 500' rule. my airstrip is three miles from the coast with easy landmarks and no hills nearby. I've taken off from elsewhere in the past with very low cloud, knowing that I can fly along the coast at 500' or less and turn in to land with no problems. It helps that as an ex glider pilot, in a very slow STOL type I'd be happy to land in any available space if things deteriorated. In something faster and less STOL I'd simply revise my minima.
SS
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Common Sense
Depends on the your experience and local weather.
Before I got my IMC rating I once flew under a load of 500' cloud but over the sea (less aerials) and vis was OK and weather at Southend was cavok.
Locally I don't mind doing circuits with a 1000' cloud base but why take a risk doing any more. IMC is a good skill but the scenery sucks once you can't see the wing tips and if you don't have an IMC or IR then its just a silly way to die.
Stay in the hangar and relax and live to fly another day.
Before I got my IMC rating I once flew under a load of 500' cloud but over the sea (less aerials) and vis was OK and weather at Southend was cavok.
Locally I don't mind doing circuits with a 1000' cloud base but why take a risk doing any more. IMC is a good skill but the scenery sucks once you can't see the wing tips and if you don't have an IMC or IR then its just a silly way to die.
Stay in the hangar and relax and live to fly another day.
The 500 foot rule doesn't apply:
I've got an IMCR, but I won't fly if the forecast cloudbase is less than 1000 foot above ground for the whole journey. That's because the cloudbase may be (often is) lower than forecast, and it's rather boring anyway. It's fine being VFR on top, but most places I go don't have instrument approaches, and I really don't want to descend through cloud except on an instrument approach unless I know I'll be able to see by 1000 foot above anything to bump into.
(a) Landing and taking off
(i) Any aircraft shall be exempt from the low flying prohibitions in so far as it is flying
in accordance with normal aviation practice for the purpose of—
(aa) taking off from, landing at or practising approaches to landing at; or
(bb) checking navigational aids or procedures at,
a Government or licensed aerodrome.
(ii) Any aircraft shall be exempt from the 500 feet rule when landing and taking-off in
accordance with normal aviation practice or air-taxiing.
(i) Any aircraft shall be exempt from the low flying prohibitions in so far as it is flying
in accordance with normal aviation practice for the purpose of—
(aa) taking off from, landing at or practising approaches to landing at; or
(bb) checking navigational aids or procedures at,
a Government or licensed aerodrome.
(ii) Any aircraft shall be exempt from the 500 feet rule when landing and taking-off in
accordance with normal aviation practice or air-taxiing.
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Rod, above 3000feet you require 1000 feet vertical and 1500 metres lateral separation from cloud for VFR flight. One of the reasons for this is so that in the event of engine failure, a descent through cloud does not have to follow, ( with no AI) and gives time to glide through the hole through which the solitary blade of grass can be seen , so one foot above a broken layer would not be legal VFR. (unless climbing or descending, which arguably you could keep doing indefinitely!)
However the one foot would be legal if IFR, even on a basic PPL with no intrument qualification (if otherwise meeting VFR weather criteria) and provided that 1000 foot above obstacles within 5 miles of the aircraft is maintained . Thus in good weather, above three thousand feet, set 1013, follow the quadrantals, maintain obstacle clearance, skim the clouds, and regard yourself as IFR!
Edited to say sorry Rod , you actually said one foot below, not one foot above!
However the one foot would be legal if IFR, even on a basic PPL with no intrument qualification (if otherwise meeting VFR weather criteria) and provided that 1000 foot above obstacles within 5 miles of the aircraft is maintained . Thus in good weather, above three thousand feet, set 1013, follow the quadrantals, maintain obstacle clearance, skim the clouds, and regard yourself as IFR!
Edited to say sorry Rod , you actually said one foot below, not one foot above!
Last edited by flybymike; 5th Jun 2008 at 23:25.
One of the reasons for this is so that in the event of engine failure, a descent through cloud does not have to follow, ( with no AI) and gives time to glide through the hole through which the solitary blade of grass can be seen , so one foot above a broken layer would not be legal VFR.