Cleared to Land?
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 913
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From: somewhere in Oz
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 776
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From: In my own little world
Had exactly this happen today for the first time at the Pilot fly-in at Duxford.
Already done 1 g/a and on 2nd approach, the bi-plane ahead didn't vacate very quickly despite being told to, continued approach, saw it vacate, (both tar and grass) runway clear but radio blocked with people cutting over each other, not waiting before a response was given to previous caller and causing the afis guy to become a little confused as to who was where.
By the time we got the call in for exrememly short final, we had held off half way down the runway and passed the bi-plane that had vacated and had a clear runway ahead but before he could reply to us due to other people cutting in on the radio, we had already landed, so he just told us to vacate left and park.
Possibly not the right thing to do, but the circuit was extremely busy and didn't think going around again would help the situation by just adding another a/c back into it when there was no reason for us not to land aside from a busy radio -and no cars were about to cross in front of us before anyone pipes up, I could see that clearly wasn't going to happen otherwise I wouldn't have landed.
- awaits incoming flack !!.
Already done 1 g/a and on 2nd approach, the bi-plane ahead didn't vacate very quickly despite being told to, continued approach, saw it vacate, (both tar and grass) runway clear but radio blocked with people cutting over each other, not waiting before a response was given to previous caller and causing the afis guy to become a little confused as to who was where.
By the time we got the call in for exrememly short final, we had held off half way down the runway and passed the bi-plane that had vacated and had a clear runway ahead but before he could reply to us due to other people cutting in on the radio, we had already landed, so he just told us to vacate left and park.
Possibly not the right thing to do, but the circuit was extremely busy and didn't think going around again would help the situation by just adding another a/c back into it when there was no reason for us not to land aside from a busy radio -and no cars were about to cross in front of us before anyone pipes up, I could see that clearly wasn't going to happen otherwise I wouldn't have landed.
- awaits incoming flack !!.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 776
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From: In my own little world
A landing clearance from an AFIS? I think the phrase you are looking for is "Land at your discretion"
What would have been the point in going back into an over crowded circuit with a clear runway ahead ? Even the AFIS guy realised that - he just told us to vacate and where to park as soon as he could.
As pilots we are expected to make decisions - personally I think in the circumstances I made the right one (and so did my fellow pilot passenger - and other fellow pilots who had landed about 5 mins before) although I'm sure others on here will disagree.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,042
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From: Oxford
Good question, actually (Chilli?) -
You are working an AFIS, you report final, and there is no reply. Are you allowed to land? After all, 'Land at your discretion' is not a clearance.
My understanding is therefore that you are within your rights to land, assuming you can see it is safe to do so.
Tim
You are working an AFIS, you report final, and there is no reply. Are you allowed to land? After all, 'Land at your discretion' is not a clearance.
My understanding is therefore that you are within your rights to land, assuming you can see it is safe to do so.
Tim
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,814
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From: Euroland
AFIS has no relevance to the debate.
If you saw that the previous had vacated and the runway was clear then why not land at the appropriate point.
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
When you do not need to obtain a landing clearance then why bother with the "very short final" call which is simply adding unnecessarily to the congestion on the freq.
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And then the bu**er charges you a touch and go!
Ask for an invoice and a copy of the CA939 (?)
If they did not clear you to land / touch and go then they would have to fill out paperwork if you did one.............if of course they agree that you did not do one then they can not charge for one.
Regards,
DFC
If you saw that the previous had vacated and the runway was clear then why not land at the appropriate point.
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
When you do not need to obtain a landing clearance then why bother with the "very short final" call which is simply adding unnecessarily to the congestion on the freq.
-----------
And then the bu**er charges you a touch and go!
If they did not clear you to land / touch and go then they would have to fill out paperwork if you did one.............if of course they agree that you did not do one then they can not charge for one.
Regards,
DFC
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
From: Earth
From CAP393, Section 2, part 45 "Flights within aerodrome traffic zones"
45-(2) "An aircraft shall not fly, take off or land within the aerodrome traffic zone unless the commander of the aircraft has complied with paragraphs (3), (4), or (5), as appropriate"
I'm not going to paste in paragraphs (3), (4), and (5) ....because I think it's about time some people here refreshed their memory of Air Law ! Talk about picking up bad habits, remind me not to fly with some of you !
45-(2) "An aircraft shall not fly, take off or land within the aerodrome traffic zone unless the commander of the aircraft has complied with paragraphs (3), (4), or (5), as appropriate"
I'm not going to paste in paragraphs (3), (4), and (5) ....because I think it's about time some people here refreshed their memory of Air Law ! Talk about picking up bad habits, remind me not to fly with some of you !
