Thielert in serious trouble ?

[coodem]

So what happens to all of us with thielert engines? We were promised a TBO of 2400 hours, if not they would pay the diff. I think TBO is at around 1300 hours at the moment, and we must be very close to that.

[BartV]

So what happens to all of us with thielert engines?

That is a big problem for you guys with Thielerts: warranty and TBO promises will vanish. First Thielert has to go bankrupt, afterwards it's impossible that the buyer of Thielert will buy the company and will pay for the promises of Thielert. The good thing is they will offer repairs, but you will have to pay for it. It's a sad moment for Thielert engine owners, i feel sorry for the trust you guys gave a new technology. It was promising and gave a real solution to the Avgas price problem in Europe.

I'm also wondering what Diamond will deliver in their Diesel machines in short/medium term, and what Cessna will do with the promised deliveries in 2008 of their 172Thielert Diesel. I guess these guys have some stressed meetings going on at this very moment.

Diamond will not buy Thielert, why should they ? They already have their own engine comming up in a few moments...
When they don't buy Thielert, they don't have to deal with the warranty issue's of planes with these engine's they sold.. smart of Diamond NOT to buy Thielert and just start their own engine line... hey it all was Thielerts fault and we made our own engine because of that...

[soay]

Originally Posted by BartV

Diamond will not buy Thielert, why should they ?

Well, one reason would be to keep the faith with their existing customer base. Otherwise, who's going to trust them enough to buy an aeroplane from them?

I agree with you though about the warranties, so the resale values of any aircraft with a Thielert engine must have taken a big hit.

[spernkey]

I have 4 retrofitted 172's and i got a bit depressed when i heard TAE went bust. Had a think, made some calls, had another think.
Result will sound bizarre but i bought £30k of shares at 40 cents a pop.
Would the gloaters stand by to laugh when it all goes wrong!
The diamond engine is a joke - steel block - no fadecs - v.v.v.v heavy. Literally just a car engine with no redundancy. It's about one thousand light years from certification.
Another couple of days should see a buyer who needs access to the technology and certification emerge or start buying shares methinks.
Fav is Textron or Diamond.
I may just end up with a face full of egg though! Lets see.........

[coodem]

£30k thielert conversion, only get 1300 hours, that's £23 p/h for new engine fund excluding any maint.Add £14.50 of fuel an hour, thats £37.50 basic and hour

If we went for the Standard engine, I guess that would have cost around £15k, but would have got 2400 hours, so that's £6.25 and hour, then add fuel at £35 an hour, I get £41.25 basic per hour

Looks like it's not that bad, or am I calculating something wrong

[IO540]

Diamond cannot just walk away.

In Europe, a consumer can sue. Warranties mean very little if someone knows their consumer rights and is willing to sue. The whole edifice of 1-year etc warranties hangs upright only because most people are unable or unwilling to sue, and this is true in both Europe and the USA.

Those who sue get what they want, quickly and quietly. They have to sign an NDA but everybody would sign one of those if they get a solution to their problem.

You could probably enforce a 5 year warranty in Europe, maybe longer, and definitely longer if the product has been a lemon all along (as the engines certainly have been, for the majority of owners).

And a 5 year warranty would wipe out Diamond. It is totally and massively in their interest to keep a lid on this boiling saucepan and to buy off anybody who gets nasty. Buying off people who are about to get seriously nasty (and who have the resources to do it) is how aviation business works everywhere and Diamond are no different.

Diamond delivered a whole plane, which happens to include an engine (or two), and will be facing a massive legal exposure if Thielert engines cannot be supported.

It may be that Diamond will not buy Thielert but somebody else will, but Diamond is the obvious choice. Administrators are always willing to do a deal under the table with a credible buyer. And you bet Diamond will know every skeleton in Thielert's cupboard and aren't going to spend a lot of time doing due diligence.

[BartV]

IO540, I have to disagree with you. If Thielert was so important for Diamond why did they start their own engine project ? They know the Thielert company inside out, and they made a choice: let them die, fade away all the warranty issues and let somebody else clean the mess up, we're going with our own engine.

When Diamond gave that message I knew that would be a tough one for Thielert, and there was more behind it than a 'Thielert cannot deliver fast enough' reason...

When a warranty system is good enough separated with the engine warranty covered by another company like Thielert, it could be Diamond will stand up in court using that argument or referring to the 'accepted' warranty system by the clients.

It's Thielert who messed up big time and don't think Diamond isn't going to use this in discussions with their customers, they will say: "what could we do?"..

spernkey, I really hope you are correct, your speculation could pay off or just not... let's hope for the best! But I don't understand your move, a buyer will not buy the publicly traded shares ? He will only buy the assets from the bankrupted company ??!!!!

one reason would be to keep the faith with their existing customer base

Soay, Diamond itself has trouble making profits, let alone covering warranty issues from a company that is dead.. that would let Diamond stop producing their new models and put their money resources into the warranty issue's..impossible, I think they will make the move to support themselves, not the Thielert customers..

[englishal]

I wonder if it is possible to fit mini turbines to the DA42.....? Wouldn't that be a nice aeroplane

[soay]

Originally Posted by spernkey"

The diamond engine is a joke - steel block - no fadecs - v.v.v.v heavy. Literally just a car engine with no redundancy. It's about one thousand light years from certification.

I heard that the Diamond engine is based on the same 2 litre Mercedes engine as the Thielert, which has a steel block, so Thielert made their own out of aluminium. Are you just putting two and two together, or do you know that Diamond stuck with the steel block? Either way, it's got to have at least one ECU, so what do you mean by no fadecs?

[soay]

Originally Posted by BartV

I think they [Diamond] will make the move to support themselves, not the Thielert customers

I still contend that it would be very bad for new sales, if Diamond were seen to be abandoning their existing customers. They're in a no win situation, which I hope doesn't bankrupt them as well.

[BartV]

Soay you are correct but I'm facing the dilemma that if Diamond takes responsibility they also go into bankruptcy, they just don't have the funds to take up the Thielert promises

Nobody is winning at this moment with the Thielert bankruptcy, except the other Engine manufactures?

[IFollowRailways]

£30k thielert conversion, only get 1300 hours, that's £23 p/h for new engine fund excluding any maint.Add £14.50 of fuel an hour, thats £37.50 basic and hour

If we went for the Standard engine, I guess that would have cost around £15k, but would have got 2400 hours, so that's £6.25 and hour, then add fuel at £35 an hour, I get £41.25 basic per hour

Very dodgy figures I think.

The Thielert tbo (actually tbr) AND WARRANTY is 2400 hours pro-rata, so the cost per hour on the conversion now works out to £12.50/hr.
The conversion cost is roughly twice the cost of a replacement engine. Your replacement engine is going to cost £15000, not £30000, so your engine fund needs to be £15000/2400 hrs = £6.25 hr. If you add your figure of £14.50 per hour for fuel, then you are probably looking at a cost of £20.75 per hour total.

The Avgas burner. Engine (your figures) £15000. 2000 hr tbo +20% = 2400 hrs. Will almost certainly need a top overhaul at about half life. Say £4000. Total cost of ownership for 2400 hours = £19000/2400 hrs = £7.91 hr. Fuel (say 30 litres/hr) @ £1.60 litre = £48.00/hr.

Total cost/hr = £55.91.

Or around £35.00 Hour more expensive than the Thielert!

spernkey, I really hope you are correct, your speculation could pay off or just not... let's hope for the best!

Thielert shares are still being traded - up 93% today. Mr Spernkey has made a lot of money today.........

Personally, I believe that Diamond must be as scared as anyone - If they are not able to sell diesel DA- 40's and DA-42's (the best sellers in the product range) and have huge support issues with aircraft already in the field, how long do you think that they will last as a viable company?

If the Thielert is as unreliable as some assert, can anyone realistically believe that a company like Cessna would not have realised this by now? The factory Cessna 172 TD is (was) due for release in the next few months. A company like Textron would not buy into this technology if, to use someones favourite line, they had not performed due diligence on the Thielert product?

[spernkey]

"Nobody is winning at this moment with the Thielert bankruptcy" said BartV. Chuckle.... chuckle......I just got a pm to say the shares are now 83 cents and rising!!!! Just approximately this means i have made £30,000 give or take so far, there may be a bit of cgt to pay but i reckon there is plenty of legs in this little bubble yet. You thought i was brave but someone has been buying 450,000 shares a day this last week! Most interesting. With one of my girlfreinds taking a punt also i think i have had a free engine in a way. I'm not saying that i will not get covered in egg just yet, but it seems likely i will be able to offset future quincyquonces of going diesel with my speculative gains. Er....i think!

Just as an aside, my stockbroker was horrified at this investment of mine. He has a lovely Cessna 182. He doesn't fly it as often as he used to. Every time he climbs aboard he puts his faith in the magnetos, and burns a whole load of leaded petrol. Actually to appease the pedants who frequent this forum i should say he only actually BURNS half of the fuel as the other half is needed to keep his jugs cool. I have now accepted that i cannot change the neo-conservative attitudes and prejudices in GA. In a way i have broken ranks and predated on the negativeness which pushed TAE shares so low. Isnt capitalism great?

Still seems likely i will, as an old man, say to my son "Did i ever tell you about when they tried put a diesel engine in a plane!" quickly followed by "Now will you take me up in your Lycoming powered PA28 one last time before i die, I'll give you 10 grand towards the fuel bill". Conservatism will always prevail in the end. The innovators WILL inherit the earth, but only when the speculators have already burned all the fuel. I shall now retire to re-calibrate my "Cynical-ometer", goodnight.
Spernkey Bowlock.

[VeriLocation]

Could be a good thing?

I would assume that buyers about to invest in a new Diamond will now have their purchase options on hold pending the outcome of Thielert. This could go one of three ways 1. full closure with no buyer 2. breakup of the assets & IPR or 3. bought outright by a customer ( Diamond et al ) It is logical to assume that with Diamond's engine a long way off then an entire years sales could vanish as nervous buyers hold off. Therefore we can assume that it is in Diamond and Cessena's best interests to keep Thielert alive and producing engines. I see that Diamond and the the Chairman of Thielert did not exactly see eye to eye and maybe with his departure the way is now open to rekindle the early love affair and Diamond can concentrate on building superb aeroplanes and drop the idea of becoming a specialised engine builder ( from scratch ) which is both risky and costly. If they can pick up Thielert for a bargain basement price they would be mad not to, however Cessena may have other ideas. Either way as a Diamond owner I am pretty relaxed about things since I know that how Diamond handle this engine crisis will determine their own future for sure and I have an idea that what has happended may just play into their own hands plus as an added bonus they get to lose the old Chairman. Time will tell but our own experience is that the engine performs well, is highly economical and has never let us down which translates into a good product. Let's see....

[IO540]

Well done Spernkey - that was an amazing bet. I do wonder what that somebody else knew...

Incidentally I would have been very pleased if Thielert did succeed. We do badly need an avtur burning engine. I don't think anybody rationally disagrees with this.

What people don't like is being used as unpaid guinea-pigs, which happens all too often in GA.

If Thielert was so important for Diamond why did they start their own engine project ?

Just showing Thielert that they didn't hold all the cards, would be a justifiable reason for doing this. Actually it would be stupid for Diamond to put all their eggs in one basket. I suppose they thought it was OK (unavoidable anyway) while the relationship was good, but when things started to go bad they decided to get a backup.

[vee-tail-1]

The Common rail diesel injection system is inherently unsuitable for aviation use. That's not conservatism, it's fact. Thielert has spent money and time to make it work in aeroplanes and failed. How very very sad.

[gasax]

Common rail is more complex than a couple of magnetoes. But Thielert certified their engine and it is no more unreliable that any Lycon. Indeed without any cranshaft or cylinder recalls from factory built components, it has to be more reliable.

Solid state electronics are nearly always going to be better than badly made mechanical components.

Cerrtainly the financial tricks (explained in the Defense weekly article) suggest that making money (or avoiding losses) was a higher priority than selling and developing the engine. But here is a certified in production engine qavailable at probalby very modest cost. It would be amazing if someone did not snap up Thielert. Almost certainly they will ignore the warranties - which is pretty standard in aviation (and boats and specialist cars and and and ).

[vee-tail-1]

"Common rail is more complex than a couple of magnetoes. But Thielert certified their engine and it is no more unreliable that any Lycon. Indeed without any cranshaft or cylinder recalls from factory built components, it has to be more reliable."

Oh dear an engine that stops within 30mins of loss of electrics...reliable! you must be joking.

Edited to say that we discussed this topic ad nauseam not long ago. Diesels are still the way to go but not with an engine that is totally dependent on electrics to keep going.

[moggiee]

Originally Posted by BartV

Diamond will not buy Thielert, why should they ? They already have their own engine comming up in a few moments....

But it won't be "a few moments" - it will be many, many months (if at all).

Diamond are liable for the provision of engines for the aeroplanes they supply (at the very least they are during any warranty period) because the warranty etc. is with Diamond. If Diamond are to ensure any sort of continuity of supply then they will need to make sure that the Thielert engine continues in production.

Diamond and the Austrian authorities have an advantage over a lot of other companies/countries as Austria is outside the EU and can get away with government subsidies. Don't be surprised if the Austrian government helps Diamond to acquire Thielert - they government has a vested interest in support its very successful aeroplane manufacturer.

[k12479]

...as Austria is outside the EU and can get away with government subsidies.

Austria is in the EU. Maybe you're thinking of Switzerland.

Diamond are liable for the provision of engines for the aeroplanes they supply (at the very least they are during any warranty period) because the warranty etc. is with Diamond.

Wouldn't Diamond only be responsible for the airframe, suppliers being responsible for the bought-in components?